lady constance

well--- i am tossing all that work down the hopper... it just was not hanging and drpaing like i think it should... so i flame tested it... the warp threads are LINEN, BUT THE weft threads are ployester............so much for cheap linen.. even if it says donegal and irish linen....... any body want it and the extra yard of fabric for playing with??????????? firsst one who sens me a PM with your address ITS YOURS!! pleats and all.......... not gonna beat myself up .. i got expereince doing more pleats{ dont think i need it , but i will take speed and accuracy increase--} know that i will NOT ever make that long of a train ever too impractical for my use the only linen i have is either black or white........

yes michael-- you are speaking TRUTH..... but these gowns are sooooooooooooooo much fun to create and peice together and work on!!!

derailing a bit off topic here... last night i found a website that has tons of historical painted pictures---www.historicalportraits.com and looked at so many paintings of women in their gowns in the years of 1690- 1740s. from all countries and nationalities...... so ideas and notions abound in my head!!!!!!!!!{ which makes decidion makign more difficult for me since so many possibilites exist--now i must CHOOSE!!} Micheal, i hear what you are saying about the stays being attached thru being tied together VERSUS one piece construction.. as my stays are simply CUT out but not sewn, and having plenty of left over fabric , i have time for adjustment and play with the strap and sleeve construction{ not to mention making the stays front a bit longer pointed}...and i DO understand the arm scythe diameter and contructing a sleeve to fit the arm scythe that is being made ....so making it work at this time does not seem to pose any serious difficulties--- i thik it is a simple matter of putting on the stays and instead of finishing each tab for trying them instead joining them as one peice--and reinforcing the seam { and perhaps covering the whole thing again, front to back for stability and preferred look} looking at the 1660s dress that captain sterling posted, he front of the stays with sleeves are MUCH longer than our period of the 1720s { or so it appears on my screen}, do you agree? differ? tell me what you think--- i am the kind of person who mulls over and imagines actually doing and fitting it all together in my head before i begin construction....kind of like working a puzzle in my head before laying out all the peices....imaginign what has to happen first then second and so on..... and from watching your thoughts posted in the form of words on computer screen--i imagine that you do the same.. problem solve and trouble shoot in your head BEFORE actually constructing the garment as you have a knowledge base from previous construction...am i correct?--you a have a gift with words and garment construction... YAH for you! { and for us whom benefit from your expereince!!} i hope this is clearly understandable!!!

Lady B -- yes my cats have an absoolute fascincation with the sewing machine AND fabric...both items are like catnip or kitty cocaine!! it is as if the machine speaks "purr" without a body form, trying to get a person to volunteer to stand there and let me pin and try to fgiure out where the buttons and bands need to go to hold up and define the shape.....need to find a way to do this.... and Lady Brower--i would love to find a coordinating material and line the edges...i would love to find a silk and border the edge of thr skirt with about 5 inches of it...looking for a pinkwith gold/ stripe kind of design--or a paisely} and i better start seriously looking at back bustles historically....i do plan on being able to see the underskirts..{my golden colored silk ones} and Micheal-- pink linen dragging behind me is not going to stay pink very long!!!

ok............ Micheal and Captain Sterling....{and anyone who has experience or a good educated guess, having seen garments up[ close} a few questions--- have begun a stays in pink linen. now......... as to adding the sleeves and arm scythe measurements and cutting the fabric for sleeves...... from looking at all the photos posted, would it be your opinion that, it comes OFF the shoulder at a farther reaching /lower angle than a set of stays that has the strap being tied together? or could i just pick one of the garments posted and imitate--i am thinking the mauve silk stays sleeve..... am i correct in my thinking that, i simply add sleeves to a set of stays? opinions please!!!!!!

ummmm serious length problems.... seriously LONG!!! {and i dont think even a three inch hem will make much difference!!!!} this skirt was made to have a length of 72 inches{not hemmed}-- and the waugh gown gave lengths of 108" measurements to tip of skirt triangle... thelady who wore the gown was very tall, OR had mega cage skirts OR did nothing but stand and pose wearing the dress.....

this where i re did all the pleats and i refuse to stick the one with kitty layingall over it--- thatis rewarding squishys BAD behaviour... off to pleat the other side.... and a piece of cardboard cut to depth of wanted pleats make this go FAST,,, ABOUT 10 MINUTES FOR PLEATING 100 INCHES of gown

notice the large roll of fabric-- that is the other side of the skirt that i have yet to pleat.... and i am seriously thinking about adding a strip peice in a contrasting fabric....

arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh..... well things are going fabulously well...... Cap'n Sterling- you know that middle line the goes down the mantua skirt { FOR THAT 1660's BODICED GOWN??? } great for basing measurements off of... AND AND AND AND...... I BET BET BET bet that is a cutting line..... 1.)BECAUSE IT IS SOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH EASIER TO WORK WITH SKIRTS THAT ARE ONLY HALF THAT VOLUME TO PLEAT, then stitch them together........... 2)after it is allll finished no one can tell it ws sewn in peices and put together... 3) easier to cut that triangle train pieceso that it matches both sides of the skirt perfectly doe sanyone want to deduse HOW i figured this out???? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! AND norah waugh says nothing, and gives NO advice about kitty cats loving and having to lay one your skirts as you pleat and stitch and such.....loading the squirt guns now.... picture upcoming

AYe..... I DO HAVE THE ANSWERS TO MY questions.... and i LOVE all the comments and informations tidbits and educational stuff.... cant ever get enough..... back laced, will use interfacing { current thickener/ stiffener as opposed to PASTE God knows what made of back then!} wont use wool unless going to wear in winter, but as i am always cold, wool stays just might be perfect thing for always cold lady me perosnally i dont cre if there are 55 more posts added to this.. i just love the education and information

:) yup that is all i can say about it.... reading it makes me :) lady c

the world would be a more beautiful place if we women would wear stays and corsets in this present day and age............. clothing commands respect...in any day and age...and we would do well to remember that.....

i defer to you cap'n..........as to where and whys of the tabs being placed under the stays' tabs what i dont know is what size woman this pattern was made for... does it seem correct that the top measurement of the skirt was approximately 2oo -220 inches? {base of triangle shape} and the longest point of the triangle approximately 180-200 inches at length? {point of the triangle} yah know , enough questions for you!! my next post will be pics of what i have done.. hopefully that wont take days.....

everything posted and everything i know about sewing and garment construction lead me to deduce that the bodice/stays are seperate from the skirting... the skirting is tied well underneath and hidden { and would be easy to do considering that you are sewing a huge bulk of gathered/ pleated fabric to give desired shape.... what i also know is that to sew a heavily pleated linen if it is weighted medium to heavy weight would be downright heavy and cumbersome to move in......so it seams that all the fabric choices of gowns displayed is rather a light to meduim weight ..... this would also help in the pleating staying so nicely arranged while wearing the skirts....... i do find it odd that they would stick the back fingers of the stays under the skirt back---but whomever arranged the clothing on the model dummy, had to choose what he/ she thought abotu how they wore the gown-- this is a judgement call and has perhaps little to do with historically accurate wearing of the gowns.... this is precisely where paintings fail us.... did the artist paint EXACTLY what he saw, or did he paint to optimize the beauty of the wearer? or a bit of both? { kind of like photo shop today} Capt'n Sterling--- if you could take a look at the scale on that one skirt { seemingly a mantua piece}... so i can do the math....i have 20 yards of linen in a pink and a green that are dying to be cut! i am not so sure that it will work--it is donegal linen and medium weight.....almost seems to heavy for this application... and yet, maybe not....{ considering that i paid less than 2 bucks a yeard for it,i dont think i have much to lose} { and i do have nora waughs cut of womens clothing tome--- but it is for a way earlier period....}

hmmm i am going to stay with back laced stays..... and no , Jack, i dont think you are starting to sound like a braying animal of any sort! i asked for advice and opinions and got it-- and i appreciate it!! { i see no sense in asking for an opinion and some one elses expereince then getting all peepy that they told you what they know and do and prefer and WHY!} lady constance

the more and more and more i look at these gowns, they definitely seem to be and are a combo of skirts --and the bodice/ stays they just seem that they are just cut from the same fabric---- the first one you posted.{ from the 1660's}.. as you said note the side view--- you can plainly see the tabs of her stays under the skirt back..........and the tiny line of cream colored whatever/ trimming/ bias tape /twill tape that must hold it up under the front end of her stays..... more more more more thinking........puzzle piecing and puzzle solving in my mind..... { ahh the glory of contemplation and possibilities and thinking!!}

re reading what i posted, i can see that i have not explained well what i mean by interfacing... and where i am placing it........ i use a medium weight fusible interfacing on either the back of the front fabric OR one one piece of the linen that is to be sandwhiched between and is part of the composing three layers where you make your channels for the boning..... and just for fun and FYI, you can buy a skirt from a thrift store a few sizes LARGER than what you would currently wear, and take it apart for the fabric alone to make a set of stays from it--- great and inexpensive way to get wool, silk, or wool/silk combos---- try to get a skirt that does not have alot of tucks for shaping...{ although the tucks can be undone and opened up and if it was a well made skirt, you lose no inches... you just have to press open the tuck to lay it falt again.... and stay away from skirts that have gores unless they are large, wide gores at the bottom-- yah dont want a seam running thru your stays-----aint nothing like paying 2 bucks for 100% wool skirt and your stays then the only cost is your boning, thread and time!

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh the back of the skirt -------- YAH TIS EASY......{ and those curved marks mean to face direction on each side gowing towards the back..... expanse in yardage? any guess? CAUSE I CANT READ THE SCALE ON THE SIDE FOR DOING THE MATH!! dang the old eyes--now wait, let me say that truly this time it is the scanners fault!! and attach to bodice.............

boned bodice in mauve---- how easy!!! just so fringes on the botton instead of tabs!! making my job easier!!! yah know what KILLS me? when i went to pip, i wore such a gown--it was a gunnesax gown i redid-- AND I TOOK THE PUFFY sleeves that hung mid deltoid muscle-- LIKE THESE PICTURES SHOW!!! arrrrrrrrggggggggghhhh! DANG NABBIT IF I ONLY I WOULD HAVE HAD ENOUGH CONFIDENCE TO JUST DYE IT AND WEAR IT!!---- and the red gown with bows scattered all over ---man that is elizabethan cut just over the top of under skirts..!!! { well it appears that way}........ way to go captain!! make me drool and dream all in the same space of 5 minutes!!! dont know whether to curtsy or call yea a temptor!

to cut the boning i use my husband kliens-- or boning kitchen shears!!!{kitchen utensils to the rescue!!}--- and i do prefer to use plastic boning and cut to length and shape each end rounded} my scissors are just cutting the linen and wool.... { do you think that perhaps it might be my children cutting God knows what when i aint looking??? hmmmm} hmmmm...half of me wants to say that i can keep my interfacing questions to myself.... it is very useful on delicate fabrics -- silk, wool, even on linen! and since i do machine sew all my channels for boning, you get such crisp precise lines--and if you mis-stitch, when you undo the stitches one cannot tell at all --the fabric seems to self heal far better than if not using interfacing.... on my tapestry stays, all the tiny threads from the weaving would have been pulled and warped the front fabric design.. so interfacing was imperative...

absolutely fabulous postings !!!! and a fabulous topic toooo!!! if one goes to a fabric store and begins to peruse the wedding gown designs and eveing gowns, one will find many patterns to base your gown on ---and by combining a few patterns, you should be able to do this quite easily--excepting the amount of yardage needed to make such a gown.... jessica mclintock and gunnesacks{ from the early 80's}--- those are two makers that are heavily influenced by voluminously flowing skirts and form fitting bodices..... one can look at the elizabethan patterns and knowledge of fabric draping and cutting can get you there.....the bodices' are just longer on the torso for the late 1600's--seeming/ appearing to come over the iliac crest ridge of the hips front and back...... when you are at good will, or other thrift store--take a look at the wedding gowns--- look how the skirt is attached to the bodice...the way they stack the fabric { they notch it is triangle shaped cut outs to get it to lay just so in folds.....shortening and deepening the folds for volume and sway .......{i learn alot dismantling gowns to redo them] ONE WOULD THINK THAT if you worked starting from the bodice front from a pair of stays that you know fit well, that would be a place to start,,, keep us posted with PICS on this project!! i would love to see the whole process and completion!!!

hmmm i am suprised that no one uses interfacing-- the iron on kind! hmmmmmm... i know it aint PC, but no one can tell--and the structure it gives the garment is awesome!!!! and there is no issue about the gramnet being too warm and not " breathingZ" because of the linen layers.... and has anyone made stays out of wool? tropical weight or other? { yah forget about melton unless you pirate in alaska!} and wool skirts? tropical weight?

i just cut out 3 sets of stays-- cherry linen,navy linen, and pink linen........... my last set , i used interfacing and they turned out just delightful {pics in my profile album}.... they were 3 layers thick-- one white linen, one tapestry{ with i ironed on the interfacing to} and the back ecru linen.... and i am wondering that if i am portraying a commoner, shouldnt the stays be laced up the front since i haveno servant to lace me in them { no, silas doesn't mind-- but i suspect that commoners laced them up front,all though all the pictures never show front lacing stays--- unless it is a jacket} and another side note----to be honest, one set of stays destroys a pair of scissors---even the titanium coated ones!!! it is like cutting bricks!!!! has anyone else experienced this phenomenon? lady c

pins??????????? and give myself a case of crepitus? drop a lung? puncture my liver? spleen and stomach? tell me are the pins just straight like T pins tailors use?

oh my goodness those skirts and bodices and mantuas are GORGEOUS!!! that is the kind of stuff i would love to wear and sew--- but alas..... yah right ---and then do what at a re enactment event dressed like that???? do they have balls that regular people are invite to to wear such things???? { love making things like this ,but can i justify makingthem knowing how rarely if ever i shall wear them?} and another question--- how are the mantuas attached to the stomachers? hooks and eyes? { i dont see any strings/ties/areas of attachment} { iknow how i can make it look like this, but would i pass GaOp?PC standards?} sigh!!! so many dreams!!! and my current dilemma--what on earth color should i make them? i made a tapestry set of stays ,and it is gorgeous--- but it isnot like any one elses....it aint poor and it aint middle class..... oh well......stop whiningandstart sewing!!! LOL!!