Hawkyns

Excellent news. I'm looking forward to it and will definitely be bringing the sutlery.

Hawkyns

Similar to the event Merry is referring to PiP Key West, after the parade 2 years ago a few law enforcement officers stopped us and told us that we needed to remove the swords. There had been an incident where a drunk had taken an others sword or knife and stabbed someone. sigh Drunk people & swords don't mix.

A most excellent reason to party in camp with friends and not bother going out to the bars with drunk mundanes.

Hawkyns

http://therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1112.html

Slightly OOP but there are references to similar blades

http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c967.html

these were still in use

http://www.loyalistarms.com/pirateswordscutlasses%20.html

the shell guard at the top of the page (This would be my choice, out of the commercial stuff out there)

Hawkyns

[

There are plenty of us out there who loved those movies, and that character. I'd be willing to bet that even most those who are now sick of all the millions of Jack Sparrow impersonators started out rather liking the franchise. However, if it's clearly a period encampment, or a historical reenactment, without fantasy elements, then yes, by all means, avoid any Sparrow references like the plague!

Well, not to attempt to resurrect the deceased equine for continued flagellation, but that is rather a major part of the problem. As Red Sea said, people need to do a little research before attending an event and actually know what they are going to, what kind of an event it is. That sounds really good on paper (or screen). What we have though, is people who don't do the research, show up in the wrong kit, and don't feel uncomfortable and don't care.

Unfortunately, what has emerged over the last few years, since the great expansion in pirate reenacting, is the attitude "I'm a pirate, I don't have to follow any rules, and I don't care what anybody thinks". I've heard it too many times and everytime I do, it makes me cringe. It's a disservice to the whole community, and a slap in the face to those uf us who do this on a regular basis, not just for the occasional faire.

Hawkyns

[

As for turning the sword into essentially an expensive piece of jewelry, well, isn't that really what all our costume pieces end up being? If you're not planning on actually using the sword, which I hope you're not (unless you're part of an act, etc.), there's really no need to be able to draw it in any kind of haste. Of course, there are people out there who feel that if you're not planning on actually using the sword, there's no reason to bring it at all, but I disagree with this.

Not to hijack the thread, and maybe this deserves a thread of it's own, but I'd like to answer. I'll agree that for many people, the sword and pistols are nothing but large, expensive jewelry. For some of us, however, they are more. I don't carry a weapon that I can't use, be it cutlass, rapier, pistol or blunderbuss. Swords shall be properly maintained, well scabbarded (so they won't fall out ) and properly sharpened. Firearms shall be clean, well fitted of flints, and capable of hitting their targets. Its a martial arts thing. Don't carry something you can't use or are not prepared to use. Not a case of planning to use it, but being able to use it in that .000001% chance that it might be needed.

Hawkyns

If you've never attended an event in full garb before make sure to bring plenty of bottled water and sunscreen with you. It gets really hot dresed as a pirate during the spring and summer

As someone who's never re-enacted, I'm curious: why is this? Given that pirates had to live and work all day under a hot Caribbean or Red Sea sun as often as not, why would they wear very hot clothes?

Tricky question but it goes mostly to the difference between perception and reality. You are correct, sailors working under the hot sun would strip to shirt and slops, or even just shirt. They'd likely be barefoot on deck and aloft, and have a single belt with only a short working knife. The problem with that is that it does not scream PYRATE!. Many pyrate types want to show off their clothing and kit, so they are wearing a ruffled shirt, fancy weskit, fancy breeches, boots, cocked hat, and weapons belt with sword, dagger, and a pistol or two. Add a gentleman's frock coat, frequently of modern (poyester or similar) material, and a few more odss and ends hanging from the belt, and you are encasing yourself in a lot of things that don't breathe or let you you breathe.

If the temp is over 80, I wear a thin linen shirt, linen slops, buckle shoes without hose, a belt with a short knife, silk scarf on my head, and a short cutlass on a baldric. More accurate, much more comfortable, but it does not have the 'pyrate panache' tha many are looking for.

Hawkyns

I'd second Eyes suggestion on peace tieing your weapons. (the Faire may already require that you do so anyway) At a reenactment, you most likely wont have a problem.... but at a Faire it's amazing how many pay-trons (patrons) get a few Ye Olde Ales in them, and will try to grabe at your weapons... Being "Ever vigilant", and knowing where your weapon is/are sounds good, ... But it only takes one Bozo who thinks he's Conan to ruin it.

Just attitude and perception, I guess. Peace tying takes a weapon and turns it into a large, expensive piece of jewelry. I don't pay several hundred dollars for a sword and then remove it's purpose for existing by making it unuseable.

Hawkyns

2)Peace tie ye weapons ~

Eye have had drunkin patrons

try to pull my own weapons before..

It is a good rule.

I'll disagree with that one. I don't peace tie my weapons and it bugs the hell out of me when I have to do it at those fairs where it is required. I think it it might be reasonable for new people or for people who only carry for show. On the other hand, weapons are what I do. I know where my sword and pistols are and who's near them. 30 years of carrying a sword on my hip, training with it, and teaching it give me the clue. And I never drink when carrying, so the "drunk in a bar' scenario doesn't apply.

I think the rule should be more like "know your weapons and your weapons capabilities". If you only carry occasionally, or have never trained, or tend to drink more than one or two, then peace tie or don't carry. If you take your weapons seriously, train with them as you would any martial art, and make them part of yourself, then peace tieing is unnecessary.

Hawkyns

So I've been asked to do some 1812 stuff this weekend with the Free Men of the Sea. They, like many others, are putting together 1812 kit for the upcoming anniversary events. Jacket, shirt, overalls and shoes I have. My cutlass hilt will change easily. But I need a hat. Any suggestions what is the best hat for a Napoleonic period privateer that can be made in 4 days?

Hawkyns

Here are some updated photos of the ren era pirate kit... did some more research and found that common sailors wouldn't have had fancy jerkins and the like, yet they would have a tunic/shirt_like doublet

so...

New linen commoner's doublet

Open kneed breeches/slops

commoners knitted cap (akin to the linen sort seen in many period impressions)

Any documentation on the knitted coif? I wear a linen one under my statute cap, but I've never seen reference to a knitted one.

Hawkyns

Are you talking officer or enlisted? Officers would have bullion tape, either silver or gold, depending on regimental requirements. Enlisted trim was most commonly worsted wool tape in the appropriate colour to the regiment.

96 Storehouse, Angela Trowbridge, Reconstructing History all carry some of the tapes, mostly in the wools. Proper bullion tape is very hard to get and expensive.

Hawkyns

The handgonne was a 14th/15th century weapon. By the end of the Hundred Years War or the War of the Roses, say about 1480, the serpent had appeared. At first just an 'S' shaped bar screwed to the side of the stock, by the early 16th century it had become a proper lock with internal workings. At that point it was no longer called a handgonne, but was being called an arquebus in most references. Considering the crude manufacture of these weapons, I would find it highly unlikely that a hnadgonne would still be in use. An arquebus possibly, but most likely one with a proper lock. The had all the basics of a regular matchlock musket, but the shape had not yet assumed what we would think of as musket shape. The flair of the stock where it hits the shoulder was a development of the mid 16th century.

the earlier arquebus was more of a lengthened crossbow type stock with a thickened but not overly flaired shuolder piece.

Hawkyns

One event for this time period = a nice blade that is correct, but it's a one use annual (disregarding Renfairs, sword)

Are ALL the one's I listed correct for the time period?

No. The Gustav Rapiers are 1630ish. The thinner rapiers with heavy ring guards are acceptable, but the Elizabethan rapier was definitely a heavier, wider blade. Think of a broadsword blade with a rapier type hilt. That said, that would be an officers or gentleman's blade. The sailors would have used a shorter, heavier hanger- sort of a proto cutlass, but without the figure 8 guard or basket hilt. Soldiers would have used a broadsword type blade with guards similar to the ones Daniel posted. Long blades are right out. Elizabeth decreed in 1576 that blades should be no longer than 36 inches. If you read the period sword manuals, the English blades are shorter and heavier. The longer, thinner Italian and French blades are derided as 'bird spits', and looked on as beneath the honour of an Englishman. The English fighting style is a very in your face, brawling style, and the continetal blades won't stand up.

Excellent. I'll be there with the sutlery.

God Save England and damnation to the dons!

Hawkyns

It's a great pity. I was on her several times in the 80's when she was still on Lake Chataqua. Beautiful ship.

Hawkyns

Anybody going? One of the biggest gatherings of period sutlers on the east coast.

http://www.friendsoffortfrederick.info/market_fair.htm

I think the difference between the hanger and the cutlass would seem to be in the width and weight of blade, with the cutlass being bigger and heavier. There are references to cutlasses being used to clear lines and rigging during boarding actions, something that the hanger is ill designed for. I would support that with the other root of the word cutlass, that being curtal axe, from the middle French. That would indicate a heavier, chopping blade, more than just an infantry hanger.

Hawkyns

According to the Men of Menendez webpage, the dates are June 4-6 at the Fountain of Youth Park.

Do they have a new webpage? I looked at their page under the Historic Florida Militia and couldn't find anything

Hawkyns

I've got a horse hide on the shelf earmarked for one of these. As soon as I get through the backlog of cartridge box orders.

Did you put the wooden stiffener between leather pieces to stiffen the ends? I've seen various takes on the encircling straps. One that seems to make sense is that they were also used to secure the portanteau to a saddle or to a pack saddle.

Hawkyns

Any info yet? Dates, details?

Hawkyns

Nah, I think we're both on the same page, Michael. I don't much care what you call it- organisation, council of captains, whatever. I come from a military reenactment background, so that's the way my mind thinks. The important thing is that we have a set of standards or guidelines and that we hold to them. That way, nobody feels uncomfortable when going to an event, knowing what's expected.

Ransom, I would say that 70% of the events I go to have no battle, so that's not really a good example. No injuries? Gwen chopped her thumb half off splitting wood for the fire. I know two gunners who lost their arms in cannon accidents. A couple of years back at an F&I battle, someone forgot to remove their rammer and wound up pinning a native to a tree. I watched someone get pushed off a horse and dragged across the field when her foot didn't release from the stirrup. (She was back in the battle next day with a broken arm) Real weapons, combined with living the lifestyle, and people get hurt. The battles may not be real, the possibility of injury or death is still there.

Hawkyns

I think that's rather the point, Mission. We're all looking for a different experience. I'm looking to experience, as much as possible, life around ships and the docks in the 1680's. The modern side of pyrate reenacting, the pub crawling, the wacky competitions, the extolling of the latest movie- none of that interests me. Can I fire a gun from a pitching deck? Can I hold my own in a cutlass fight? Can I live for a week or more without any electricity or other modern convenience? Me against the late 17th c. Can I survive?

When I decide which festivals I'll go to, (For myself, not the sutlery) I base it on which will give me the best experience, same criteria that I would apply to an F&I event, a Rev War event, or an ECW muster. Will there be raucus, bawdy singing in the tavern or camp? Will I be able to wander down to the water and smoke a quiet pipe after dark and not see much of the mundane world. Will I be able to get the smells and stains of tar, seawater, wet wood, blackpowder smoke, strong tobacco on myself? Will we have a real battle, a scripted farbfest, or just weapons demos? It's all relative. Some have called this disgusting and icky. Slipping the bonds of time and experiencing the life is, to me, the best.

Some people like the relaxed atmosphere. As long as I know that's what I'm going into, in time to plan for it or say no thanks, that's OK. In every reenactment, of all periods, there will be dillettants and the hard core, and a bunch in between. It is why I do think we need some kind of organisation, not to run things, but to set a series of standards, from streetfair farbe through to hard core stitch counters so that we can all understand what is expected and avoid the problems.

Hawkyns

And Hawkyns, no offense intended, but by your posts, I get the impression that your events are something to be endured, rather than enjoyed. I totally understand and "get" your dedication. Maybe for you that's a personal challenge, but for most reenactors, once the game stops being fun and becomes something to merely survive (for bragging rights?), then what's the point?

I guess it depends on a bunch of things. It's another part of why I started this thread. It all depends on what your tradition is in reenacting. I don't come out of the Ren world. I come out of more hardcore reenacting, WWII and Trekking were the first real reenactments I got involved with. WWII is insanely detail oriented by pyrate standards. Trekking is a combination of history and survival course. Yes, some of us do see hardcore reenactments as a trial to see how well we can deal with the hardships of history.

Let me tell you about one of the treks I went on a few years back. Beginning of April and a fairly warm spring. A bunch of us met at a trailhead in the foothills of the Catskills. Gear was checked to see we had nothing modern except a pocket first aid kit, suitably hidden, and neccesary meds. My pack weighed about 30 pounds, plus musket and weapons belt. We hiked in about 10 miles or so, and rose in altitude quite a bit. By the time it was heading for dark, we were above the snowline and there were still piles of snow about. We, the 6 of us, set shelter- ground cloth, blanket, and small tarp over- and scouted for dry wood for the fire. We got a fire going, cooked a meal of rice, dried peas, and jerky with tea and some period chocolate. Asleep at dark and awake at first light, with occasional waking up to keep the fire fed. Breakfast was bacon and biscuit softened in the bacon grease, with more tea. We scouted the area through the day, including needing to wade through thigh deep snow runoff streams. Evening was the same thing, accompanied by a touch of rum from the flasks. Dawn we packed camp and back down the mountain.

It was the best damn time. We survived, proved that we could, at least for a short time, deal with an 18th C environment. There are ACW groups that will park 10-15 miles from the reenactment and march in. Lots of 18th c rangers and natives that have camps that make Patrick's camp look like luxury accomodations. WWII people want to see production dates and manufacturors marks on kit that will never be seen by the public or even others in the unit. It all depends where you came from. Pyracy is a relative latecomer on the reenactment scene. Most of us have done this in other places, whether it is Faire, Hardcore, or Battle Reenactors, before we got involved in pyracy. We bring with us those attitudes. Unfortunately, they don't always mesh well. You see my style of reenactment as an ordeal. I see a pub crawl as a complete waste of time. (Not saying you are a pub crawler, just an example.) That's why I think it is so important that events are extremely clear in advance about what to expect.

Hawkyns

ultimately, at the weekend I dress up like a pirate - how seriously can I really take myself?

Or, I'm a pirate/smuggler/privateer/reiver/soldier who dresses in funny clothes through the week to support my reality.

Granted, being a fulltime sutler and craftsman makes that a bit easier. It just depends which reality you prefer to live in.

Hawkyns

Hey Mission You asked about which definition of living history to use. That question really threw me, because to me it was obvious, but so ingrained that the question didn't make sense. The definition I use is the one used by the museums and living history sites- Plimoth Plantation, Jamestown, Old Sturbridge Village, places like that. Some are First person, some are third, but that is the standard that I've always used.

Hawkyns