Hawkyns

[about naughty behavior most (some) of us would be offended but isn't the same behavior you seen in things like "girls gone wild" , college parties , rave clubs etc...? from what i remember my college days things weren't much different that from those paintings and from my husb stories of his parties in Marines it got to be quite interesting.... so are we that much evolved or prude or just would like to think? about being in a family enviroment I've seen things last year at TX refaire that should be in a adultmovie and they supose to be "family oriented" .

I think that is one of my big questions out of this whole discussion. How much would people be offended? Not just with wenches getting the girls out, but with drunken behaviour in general? I'm not seeing a lot of answers to that. I think the family friendly issue is also one that needs to be defined. Should the same behaviour be required whether it is 3pm in public hours or 10 pm after the public is gone and the kids should be in bed? I'm not seeing a lot of hard answers to this.

We can go round and round on what historical behaviour was, and I'm sure that with the the libraries and scholars here, we can all justify our positions, documentation being sketchy and incomplete as it is. But to go back to the original point of this thread, what should be our limits? How far should we be allowed to go in our own taverns and camps, when the public is not around?

Hawkyns

[

YES!

OK, here's the scoop from the lecture today. Basically, from the 1600's through the early 19C, women of nearly every walk of life could be found in taverns and ordinaries. The info I had about only certain types of women being found in taverns (servants, proprietors, "working girls") is dated information based on secondary sources in a limited geographic range.

OK, questions. Did he break it down by type of tavern or area? Dockside alehouses vs travellers ordinaries, for instance? Civilised areas like Boston or Philadelphia vs places on the fringe like Port Royal?

That sort of divide still exists today- upscale wine bars and biker bars, Central Park and the Lower East Side. Women will still be found in both of them, but not the same type of women.

Does he have this lecture avaialble as printed text? I'd really like to see it.

Hawkyns

Port Royal always had a large supply of womenfolk.

In 1662 in Port Royal, there was about two men for every woman, 400 men, 200 women, 90 children. These are free men and women.

By 1692, there were 1,600 free men, 1,400 women and 1,000 children, living in roughly 2,000 structures. The balance of the population, roughly 1,0000, composed of an equal amount of men and women.

Obviously, the only entertainment in town besides the drinking establishments was making babies. :)

-- Hurricane

Any indication of population breakdown by profession, Hurricane?

Hawkyns

I've got one of the City Waites CDs. I've also got a couple of CDs of period 17th c broadside music. And one more called "Naughty and Bawdy songs of Olde England"- it's actually quite explicit. They were common in the 17th c reenactment camps and we'd sing them at most musters. Not so popular in the pirate world, though. I'll bring my songbooks to PiP. Hopefully we can change some minds about what we should be singing.

Hawkyns

Good point. When we are talking about the dockside taverns of Port Royal, Charleston, or Southwark, are we going to find any 'respectable' women? Move uptown to a traveller's inn or hostelry and perhaps. The ladies of the town will entertain each other at each other's homes. The clientel at the boozing kens and alehouses would be of the lowest sort.

As the song says (period):

He that would an alehouse keep

Must have three things in store

A chamber with a feather bed,

A chimney and a whore

(ok, they said hey nonny nonny, but we know what they meant)

Hawkyns

Then there's the problem with arrangements we lean towards more modern version for And one of my favs being a bit of a lefty.......http://www.youtube.c...h?v=k_ZhN-bNhtg works well as a work song too =o)

Putting aside for the moment the fact that I'm a Royalist officer and this song is treasonous.....

Is there documentation that that is the original tune? I know from the mid 18th c as 'Ye Jacobites by Name". Any idea which came first?

Never knew Chumbawumba did historic stuff. have to look up more.

Hawkyns

No thanks, I prefer English.

Hawkyns

We use ground beef now, but Mum used to make it with tinned corned beef, as well. Brown it with onions then add a bit of gravy and some spices. There are commercial shepherd's pie spice packets available. I tend to use a bit of garlic powder, Worcestershire sauce, pepper, salt, and gravy browning. Put it in a loaf tin, add peas or peas and carrots, then top with mashed potatoes. Corn is an abomination and a heresy that should never be used. Dab the top with butter and bake.

Hawkyns

But, of course, we want to think we can come close, just as we think we're close singing chanteys from the whaling area and calling civil war tents "period tents". I'm not slamming this interpretation, mind you, but these too are either sanitations of the true historical record or are simply accommodations to the mainstream of re-enacting events. It does amuse me that on one hand some hold fast to quoting from original sources only but then bend rules all the time to suit our own needs or the rules and restrictions society has placed on us. How many times have we heard Rolling Down to Old Maui in a "period pub" though its origins are believed to be from around 1858 and no one is really sure of its melody.

The book Hubbub has a great discussion (if I recall) on inns and drinking establishments.

http://www.amazon.com/Hubbub-Filth-Stench-England-1600-1770/dp/0300137567/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1287878836&sr=8-1

Very well done and an enjoyable read, even if you aren't into re-enacting.

I am still waiting for the famed moment in Port Royal when the buccaneer tapped the keg of red wine in the center of the street and invited others to partake. And if they didn't he threw tankards of wine at them, even if they were of the upper station of society. Now there's a moment to re-enact.

Right, I'll stop in at Yale tomorrow and see if I can get a copy of that.

Agreed on the singing. There are plenty of period tavern songs that we could be singing, The Trooper Watering His Nag comes to mind, or Back and Sides Go Bare. But we have this twitch that sailors sing chanties, even when most of them date to 19th C whaling. That's a hard one to deal with. Unfortunately, most of the pirate bands out there perpetuate the myth. If it's Irish or about sailing, it must be period, so we'll put it on our CD. Strikes me we need to do some serious reeducation in this regard.

I'd love to see someone with a keg of rotgut red heaving it about and making people drink. The vomit and refuse are more of a problem with the site cleanup than anything else, though we have very little refuse that is of a period nature- broken pots, animal bones, etc. And I don't see being able to bring a pig to wander about the site. But beyond that, the biggest problem with period behaviour is the attitude of our own. How many can drop their 21st century ideas of what is 'proper' and go along with, or at least ignore, some of these ideas? How many would squeal and get upset if they got splashed with red wine? How many would complain about raucus singing in the next tent at 3 am? How many would get offended if one of the ladies did parade her charms in an effort to emulate the whores?

Like everything else, period behaviour becomes an issue of how much people can put on the perioad attitude with the clothing.

Hawkyns

Not sure how typical Port Royal might be, hence the question to Hurricane. From what I've heard, though, it might be analagous to what shows in Hogarths etchings. That's what I want to find out, if it really was that wild.

OK, 'splanations. One of the reasons I got into living history was to escape the 21st, then 20th, century. Getting far away from the comfortable, politically correct, family friendly world was the target destination. So my reenactment 'homes' are Carlisle and Southwark in the 1590's; France, as a English Routier in 1453; England, 1643 in the middle of the war, and the low dives of the Eastern Seaboard and the Carib in the GAOP. Basically places that law and respectability do not exist. So when Mission tweaks me about things 'not being real enough', it's 'cause I'm still fighting to find the lowest level of Society and hoping enough comrades will descend with me. Ergo, the obvious interest in this topic and wondering how far people are prepared to go.

Hawkyns

Paging Hurricane. Hurricane to the white courtesy phone.....

You are our Port Royal expert. Are there any primary source descriptions of the Port Royal taverns and the common behaviour? It's not my area, so my library is lacking.

Got to wonder what things were like in the Wickedest City in Christendom.

Hawkyns

Sorry, Mission. Every so often somebody hits the big red candy coloured button. But if you know of taverns that look anything like Hogarth's taverns, do let me know. I have the distinct impression, though, if we turned the tavern at PIP into that, half of our own people would complain.

Hawkyns

Unfortunately, most of the behaviour pictured, that which was common in the dockside taverns, would not be tolerated, even in our nonpublic, recreated taverns. Sad to say, many (most?) of our brothers and sisters bring their modern hangups and, yes, prudishness, with them when they enter the pirate realm.

It's been a long fight of mine to show more of the reality and less of the glorified version of piracy, and reenacting in general. Where are the whores, the drunks, the criminals, when we portray an encampment or town scene? We focus mostly on the idea of pirates as jolly rogues, rebels against conformity, yet we are unable, as a group, to drop the conformity of the 21st century and deal with those subjects that "one does not speak of in polite society". Too damn proper for pirates, we are.

Hawkyns

I'd love to get the sutlery out there, but 6 nights hotel plus gas, plus fees and it's not financially viable. Especially with the reduced table size. Not to mention driving across NYS in February. Any chance we're ever going to get this on the East coast?

Hawkyns

I guess I'll start by saying that the only aging a piece needs is use. False aging looks like false aging. Blackening a brass hilt will give an all over patina, it will not show the wear points where your grip would keep the brass polished.

Sweat from your hand will take the newness out of the brass, as well as putting the appropriate wear on the hilt. Use it. If you don't have a battle ready blade or a partner to work with, suspend one of those pool noodles and use it as a practice target for a couple of hours a week. You'll not only age the hilt, but you'll get an idea of just what swinging a cutlass is all about, and build up your arm strength at the same time. If you have a battle ready blade use an old car tire. That will also put some nicks and scrtaches on the blade.

The wear on a blade should not be patina. All steel blades should be kept clean and free of rust and corrosion. The wear you would see on a blade would be scratches and small nicks. Larger nicks would be filed out so as not to create a weak point where the blade will break.

Hawkyns

Nay lad. Tha mun do summat beside t'West country. Dun't tha know other ports rand England? Filey, or Scarbro, or tha could even be a Scouser. It's a rum go that lads allus go wi't'bloody southerners. Stop laikin abaht an use thi nut.

I just revert to my native Dales accent. Watch episodes of the old TV show "All Creatures Great and Small".

Hawkyns

Depends what I'm doing. If I'm in 16th/early 17th century rig, I carry a bollock knife with a 7 inch blade . They were the common English knife of the period. For late 17th/18th century, I carry a sheepsfoot knife with a 5 inch blade.

Additionally, on my gunners belt, I have a triangular profile blade with a thick spine. On that spine are the measurements of the various bore sizes of English cannon. The scabbard for the knife also has a secondary sheath for a vent prick.

Hawkyns

I'll be stitching leather in the sutlery. New kit and repairs if people need them.

Hawkyns

Cut some sod and place it on the bench.

Which poor sod did you have in mind??

hawkyns

Hell yes. Stress builds up after multiple firings. Metal fatigue is a funny thing. It is very hard to track and generally requires destructive testing and microscopes to determine just how far it has progressed. Dad was a QC engineer on turbine blades for Rolls Royce. I heard plenty about metal fatigue testing while growing up.

Hawkyns

Just bloody lovely!! Not enough details to figure out what happened. Both articles said he was loading the cannon, but that may not mean much, considering few reporters know the procedures.

If I had to guess, I'd go for the seriously overloaded. Cannons with flaws generally break into a few large pieces. The article indicates this one fractured like a grenade into multiple small pieces.

Hawkyns

22x22 including ropes. Merchant area.

Hawkyns

Since numbers are now an issue, I'd like to point out that I don't see the sutlers listed on the Roll Call. I am definitely planning on being there with the sutlery, At The Sign Of The White Rose.

Hawkyns

Bugger!! Not going to make it. Perfect storm hit, stock issues, schedule stuff, and a DMV glitch.

Sorry, All!

Hawkyns

Do watch your language if children are about. Parents frown on kids learning to "talk like a pirate" and dropping the F-bomb! I might suggest jargon instead. That will keep your tone correct and your intent unknown!

That may be valid at pirate festivals, but at living history events, I don't sanitize for the public. History should not be disneyfied.

Hawkyns