Hawkyns

The point being that you don't have to have 10+ years experience to have a sensible head on your shoulders and you don't have to have known/witnessed/heard of a guy who lost a limb to comprehend the dangers of firing a weapon.

No, but experience counts, just like in any shooting sport. I would not take a crew that has not worked together before to the line. I add new people one at a time to experienced crews. It's fine until the battery is crashing around you and you can't tell which captain is yelling command, and you can't see more than 20 feet ahead, and then the adrenaline kicks in. It's easy to get confused and to get ahead of yourself and miss steps. Prime a piece before it is pricked. Load a cartridge with the nipple in instead of out. Don't seat a cartridge fully. Seen all that and more stuff besides. It's not when things are going well that you need the experience, it's when things go buggered up in a hurry.

Just in case you guys didn't see this from the other thread.

http://www.poststar.com/articles/2009/10/02/news/local/doc4ac659bec8abb651820875.txt

Hawkyns

That is one hell of a can of worms........

Yes, garb is only one facet of what we do. Weaponry- carrying the right piece for the time period. Is it real? Can you actually use it? Camp- can you live period in a canvas tent without modern bed and bedding, without modern camp stove, without modern lighting? Skills- can you do any of the other things that would be required of a seaman or even a landsman of the period? General knowledge- do you know who your king is, who signs your papers, how much is money worth, can you idnetify various types of ships? Mindset- can you think and speak as your persona (probably the hardest of the lot)? There is much more to historical reenacting than just putting on the clothes.

Hawkyns

There were a hundred variances on basic garments, and folks prefered one style over another. I have found documentation of common folk wearing wooden shoes but I doubt many people would make a big deal about that because... who wants to wear wooden shoes?? Although it is a fact.

I wear wooden shoes all the time, especially in the middle of the night or first thing in a morning for a trip to the jakes across the wet grass.

"With all due respect, this appears a thread whose only intent is to disparage reenactors with an interest in authenticity."- Quartermaster James

Agreed, Quartermaster.

Hawkyns

Was it the only style of powder flask used during the 17th century or did they also used simple powder horn (more 18th century style)?

I7th century flasks were made of horn, among other things, but did not take the same form as the 18th century common american horn. The 17th c horn ones were generally flattened and had a spring loaded cover to the opening.

The trapezoidal flask was also very popular in the first half of the century

Horns were also frequently made from stag or elk horn.

Hawkyns

Jessi- where do get the idea that I hate Jack Sparrow? I have all 3 movies, just watched #3 on Saturday. I also like Cutthroat Island and Swashbuckler, among others. What I hate is the effin lack of imagination that manifests itself. Bloody hell, can't people think beyond making a cookie cutter image of someone else? We have 140 years of the era where pirates were a big thing, we have 5 continents and 3 oceans and multiple seas. There is a body of pirate literature, both accurate and fantasy, tha is enough to fill a library of it's own. And all people can bloody well do is dress up like somebody else. It doesn't have to be authentic , it doesn't have to be perfect for something like this, but can't it at least be different?

Hawkyns

Yeah, I know Hurricane. I'm already considering getting a prozac drip for the week . The clothing issue is what it is. Two years ago at MDRF we had, on the same day, 19 different Jack Sparrows. Goddess knows what else we saw out there on Pirate Invasion. So I'm kind of ready for that.

The problem with authenticity standards when it comes to an overall pirate festival is that any kit is good, from the Phoenicians to current day Somali. We all know what we think is pirate , but that is really up in the air depending on what period you are taking on. I still have not decided whether to come down for PiP in GAoP kit or with my Elizabethan Seadog kit, especially since I am now reproducing items from the Mary Rose for the sutlery.

Remember that this discussion sprang from discussion of a historical venue with a very specific year and culture. that is where standards need to be hard and fast. The thought occurs to me of a rating for crews or people. "Museum Approved" "Street Performer" "Weapons Specialists" and so on. That way both recruits coming in and people looking to have us at their festivals know what they are getting into.

Safety is my big candy coloured button. One of the first cannon courses I took back in the 80's was taught by a one armed gunner. For those of you who remember, he was involved in the accident that shut down the LaPann gun foundry. For me, there is no good enough, or it will be OK, or any second string. You are on the mark, up to date, properly trained and equipped or you are not on the line, period. Powder is kept under lock and key, alcohol is not consumed until the powder is finished with and locked away, guns have full crews, safety distances are covered and understood, crews have received proper training, and all guns are inspected and properly equipped. No exceptions. Nobody trains under fire, nobody gets to walk on. Yeah, I'm the hardest of hardasses when it comes to this.

Hawkyns

Standards for authenticity are going to vary by what the focus of the group or individual are. If, like me, you are interested in hardcore living history and museum standard, then you take your documentation from extant items, primary source documents, and paintings of the period. If your focus is street theater to entertain the punters, then you are probably going to go with the image of pirates from popular culture. If you are just out for a good time for yourself, and have no need to please anyone else, your standard will be whatever the hell you want it to be.

The insurance issue is getting a bit twisted. It should not be linked with kit standards, because they are variable, as stated above. I would say that it should be linked with a safety standard for blackpowder and for swordplay. One of the frustrating things that I find is that when I go to various events, I'd love to cross blades with some of the other folk there. Problem is, we're so damned insular that no two groups are playing the same game, using the same type of weapons, or having the same goal. A set safety and practice document could put us all on the same page and enable us to play with each otherwithout killing or maiming each other, at the same time that it gives us cover. Blackpowder is even worse. I've been owning and firing cannon for 25 years. Pyrates are, without exception, the worst at drill and safety that I've ever seen. No standard drill, no standard safety protocols, no way for two crews to work a line and be doing the same thing. I've known two gunners who lost their hands in accidents. I've heard rumours of other accidents in recent pyrate history. I've had to shut down lines when crews showed up without enough people, gun tools, or safety equipment. This is the sort of standard that should be worked into an umbrella organisation. It lets us know who is safe to play with and who isn't, and lets venues know which groups will put on a safe show.

Hawkyns

Someone who travels and goes to many events will naturally have a higher risk (even if its from a falling brick) than someone who only does an even or two a year.

There are people (I feel Jessi and Mission are in this group along with myself) who try to make their kit as accurate as possible yet don't participate in as many events as others might

Interesting point. While they may not all be pirate events, between pirate, Elizabethan, Rev War, and the occasional Frog and Savage event, I'm under canvas at least 3 weekends out of 4 between March and Novemeber. That number will probably increase this year as I add some southern events to the schedule.

Hawkyns

Hawkyns, I'm curious as to why you ascribe the title of "elite" to those who want insurance - as, from my point of view at least - that was a totally separate debate? I am not picking up the crossover of topics you are implying...

In my mind it comes down to professionalism. Those of us who want to do more and be more

understand that there are costs involved with that. Costs that are both financial and restrictive. That applies whether you are running a full scale sea battle between ships, a sword circle, or interactive street theater. Being just somebody in pirate kit is not enough for me. If I class myself as a 16th or 17th century sea gunner, it is important to me that I actually have as many of the skills as I can to support that. Just saying it is not enough, I have to be able to prove it, to myself and others. In order to do that, I have to participate in activities that are dangerous to both myself, the crew around me, and the spectators. In order for venues to allow me to do that, they want more than my handshake to prove I know what I am doing. Insurance, qualifications, standards- all of these speak to the mundane risk analysts that I am not some yahoo with a cutlass and a pistol that is likely to sink their ship when I fire a broadside. If somebody is going to do street theater with little kids, they want to be sure that the pirate is not a pedophile or likely to somehow injure the kids while fooling around. They want to be able to point to some group that has connections with other sites that can say "Yeah, we've worked with these guys and their organisation. they're OK."

Hawkyns

As I'm seeing all of this, it reverts back to this morning's part of the discussion. The "elite" see the insurance and umbrella organisation as a good thing, because it opens up more venues and things to do. Others see it as a threat, since once we start doing things a bit more professionally, it could mean that to participate, rules would have to be followed. It could mean that we are looking at a divergence between the more accurate events with much participation, and the festival types, where many pyrates are little more than spectators in kit.

Pay to play is always out there and it's never bothered me. I've been doing it as long as I've been reenacting, even the pyrate crew I've been working with charges dues to cover the insurance. Sometimes I pay a site fee as well. It doesn't bother me. I do this for me, so I expect to pay for the privilege of having fun, just as I would at an amusement park, campground, movie theater or anywhere else that I go to have fun. The crowd or the fact that the site gets more visitors because we are there does not affect my decision on this at all.

Hawkyns

Meaning re-enactors need insurance at events that require them to have it. It doesn't protect us, it protects the event sponsors.

Still not seeing why I should care... I'd rather just skip those events.

That may be a solution for you out in the midwest, where there are not so many venues that have a historical link, but it can be a problem for us out here. As we start to look at more and more historic sites- Fort Mifflin in Phiily comes to mind, a revwar fort (much modified) on the Delaware River that is reenactor friendly- and start to expand on the town Pirate Festivals, it becomes more of an issue. Same goes if we want to do anything at the major or minor renfests.

It is all about what you want to do, as I said. If all you want to do is wander around in pirate garb, then insurance is an issue. If you want to get into more and more of the arts-ship, firearm, and sword- insurance is more and more neccesary. We are asked about it everytime we go out up here in New England.

Hawkyns

Well, I am still in an organisation. I'm a member of the Royal Irish Artillery, which as a unit is a member of the British Brigade. Being there lets me get my fix of large scale battles. I don't have to hold my own insurance, come up with a sixpounder plus transport and crew for it, or deal with organisers as an individual. As a unit, we form a commisary for musters so that we don't have to do all our own cooking but can share the duties. We have a section of the tent line, so that we don't have to go looking for camp space when we go to a battle. Most major battles and sites don't allow individuals or 'walk ons' as they are known, so I get to play at Fort Ticonderoga or Monmouth Battlefield.

Blackwell's Regiment, which was my ECW regiment was the Third Company of the Regiment, the first two companies of which were based in England. We operated independantly on this side of the pond, but when going to England it ensured that we were allowed to participate in their battles and gave us a 'home' across the pond. It is no longer an active unit due to the fact that people moved due to jobs, and the fact that ECW waned seriously after the 350th.

I think the solution is that those of us who do believe in the idea of an umbrella organisation should form it and work with it. Freebooters can then see our benefits and decide for themselves if it is worth it. The biggest question for me would be whether we formed it as individuals or as crews. I'd vote for joining as individuals. That would give us the protection and, hopefully, insurance, and still leave our individual impressions in our own hands.

Hawkyns

I also the think the 'rushing into things' comment is a bit off. This may be new in the pyrate world, but it's an old idea in the rest of the reenactment community. It may take a bit of getting used to for some who have always operated as indivdual freebooters, but it normal for those of us who have been around the block a few times. Why reinvent the wheel?

Like others, I think this is entirely dependant on what you want to do. As an individual, you may decide that you don't need any such organisation to show up at a faire or festival, wear your kit, and do whatever you do at these things. If, on the other hand, you wish to be a part of it, fire your pieces, fight others, and generally be more than a spectator in kit, the organisation would be to your benefit. If nothing else, it could provide a level of organisation and communication so that we know what specs any given venue has, and eliminate people showing up with the wrong expectations.

Hawkyns

Exactly, Sterling. Groups change and hive off from each other at a regular rate. It's a common thing in other periods. A few guys in a unit will get an idea to do something else, but the unit as a whole doesn't want to. Those guys split off and form the nucleus of another unit. It's a normal part of the expansion process. Alternatively, the unit will decide to do something and a couple of people decide it's not what they want to do or its too much trouble or whatever. They will either drop out or find another unit more to their liking. This is normal evolution in most reenactment groups.

In the pyrate world it can be driven by the latest movie to come out or the latest shipwreck find. Some people change units like others change their socks. Some have been with their unit since it's inception and will be there when the nail the box shut. I'm not seeing a problem with this. To avoid improving our situation (not neccesarily our impression, but the level at which we interact with the mundane world) because some people see it as giving up freedom, seems unneccesarily self destructive.

Hawkyns

Well, actually, no. Pollywood as we use it came into being because we saw too many renfaire pirates with stuffed parrots attached to their shoulders...

Hawkyns

Agreed, Dutch. Playing the authentic game and keeping up on the paperwork has got me into places that most folks never get to. When you can discuss this on an equal level with museum directors, and 'walk the walk', as well, it goes a very long way to gaining their respect and cooperation. I would say that the same probably exists for those who are at the top of their game with the street artists and performers, in regard to faire directors and organisors. I guess 'elite' in this case means those who have taken the extra steps to gain their patrons' respect and thereby moved this to a higher level than just weekend hobby.

Hawkyns

Jessi, I think you are reading too much into what I'm saying. (One of the reasons I hated psych) I read what's on the surface and what is said, not what might be behind it. I use pollwood as a term to describe pirates whose research and persona comes from popular culture, not as a putdown. I've always said that there is a place for everyone in this hobby, whether it's staffing a museum replica ship, or just going to your buddy's pirate costume party. As far as the faire pirates who roll from pub to pub, I know many of them, both from MDRF and NYRF. I'm fairly active up and down the northeast, and I know who is out there. It's a fact that there are many who I do not see outside those venues. There are some who extend beyond that and many more who do not. That's fine. Nobody is saying they have to do more. But the fact remains that there are 'names' out there who everyone recognises and who are seen to be leaders in their part of This Thing That We Do. They are elites, and will always be recognised as such by those of us who are active at this year round. On the continuum, there will always be people who are between the two ends. How far one progresses towards the elite end will always be a personal choice, but it will also always be a determinant when people look at us and rate us. And that is something that people do, like it or not. Some people can take the criticism of being called a stitch nazi or Jack sparrow wannabe, some can't. Some people take umbrage at the most polite suggestion, others ask to be critiqued down to the underwear.

I take people as they are and treat them as I find them. I long ago gave up being PC to spare people's feelings. I've no doubt it has alienated a few over the years. I also know it has created a circle of friends (more like family) who have similar attitudes. I don't offer unasked for help, but I also don't ignore what is wrong for the venue. if that is the elitist attitude that some are talking about so be it, but to back off on the search for excellence because some don't like it does no service to anyone.

Hawkyns

NB- This comes across as harsh, and directed at you Jessi. It is not and is not meant to be. But parsing words is not what I am known for. It is simply how I feel, using the best terms I know.

Hawkyns

Wow, I missed most of that, but then I flunked Psych 101

In Defence of Elitists.

I'm still of the opinion that we need the elite groups. Being elitist has never been a bad thing for me. Not in the sense of looking down on others, but in being top of the game. My impressions, all of them, are not static. I've got boxes full of kit that was purchased as being top of the line at the time, but has been superceded by better research or better production. To my mind, it's being an elitist that makes me spend my time poring over archeological journals and reports, wills, and period government documents. These groups are the ones that get called when History Channel needs somebody or when a museum is liikng for something special.

Now let me put it in another sense. All elite groups are not historical elite groups. There are elite groups that specialise in street theater, playing to the crowds. I could never do that. But there are times when that is needed too, parades for instance, and fundraisers. Put me in front of a couple of five year olds and I don't know what to do. I can't relate to them on an intellectual level, so I have no point of reference. The kids are bored, the parents are miffed, and we've just lost the audience. It takes a specialised type of person to do that, another kind of elite, if you will.

Look, we're never going to bridge the divide between historical and pollywood pirates. We all do our thing. But to assume that elite means putting someone down because they are not stitched up right is a bad assumption. It is just someone who is at the top of their game, either as a historical interpreter or a street player. There are some (many?) who do not aspire to either group. They go to the renfaires in whatever their kit is and spend the day doing the pub crawl. They interact mostly within their own group and that's fine for them. They are not interested in how the public sees them or even how other pyrates see them. That's fine. Without them, there would be no dividing line to separate the elitists.

Hawkyns

Let's see, I started reenacting back in 1980, doing WWII. Brit Commando first, then switching over to Waffen SS. Got hooked up with 30 Years War in 85 then modified that to English Civil War in 87. Stayed with that as a unit commander until 2005, when we disbanded. Still get the lads together occasionally, but not as a full time unit. For a few years in there around 97, I did American Civil War in the 8th Texas Cavalry. On and off did some Frog and Savage and then joined the Rev War Royal Irish Artillery 2 years ago. I do a lot of Elizabethan Border Reiver these days. Pyracy, I've been doing on and off for about 8 years. I do it either as one of Drake's seadogs, or in the GAoP.

I think it was because I did WWII first that I got hooked on the harsh authenticity. You have to there, there are still people around who lived it to tell you what you did wrong. Not to mention, lots of original kit and lots of documentation. I carried that attitude since then. I don't need the public, not at all. I do this for my own reasons, to escape the 21st C, to find out how our ancestors lived, and to indulge my love of early weaponry. Find me fire, a pint of cider, and a period song or two,put me in period kit with a musket and sword nearby and I have all the reason I need to do this. On my own, with a group of the lads, or even with an audience of mundanes, it doesn't matter, I'll be happy. I can deal with the mundane audience better than I can deal with an inaccurate reenactor. I know the danes are out of place, so I can ignore them. When I see somebody who is a participant, though, who is in some manner out of place in their kit, it jars the mind. I have much more trouble ignoring it, can't tell you why. So I try and stay witin my own circle whenever possible.

Hawkyns

Michael, I'm a member of the Royal Irish Artillery, which is part of the British Brigade. We have our own standards, our own operations manual, and our own chain of command. We determine our promotions and staff level, noone else. The Brigade is useful for 3 things. First, it determines which will be the official BB events for the year. That ensures maximum participation and a good crowd. Second, it provides a uniform set of safety rules, so that we can all play together without people getting hurt. Third, it provides a central clearing house for people to find regiments and see who is close to them and what they do- sort of a universal recruiter. Each regiment maintains it's own standards and it's own website.

Now, I will say that at an official BB event, there is a minimum authenticity standard that you must attain in order to be able to participate. At individual regimental events, that standard reverts to the regiments. Most regiments do carry their own insurance. For the pyrate community, that can be an issue becuase there are not generally enough in any given crew to spread the cost to a doable level. And that insurance is going to become more and more of an issue, since the whole healthcare/liability debate currently going on is going to come down to the sites. They are going to want individual groups to insure themselves, rather than be covered under site insurance. We are already seeing that in some areas. Sites won't pay the additional cost to cover us, and won't take the liability. Each crew is going to be classed as a subcontractor. So if we want to continue firing muskets and cannon, and cutlass fighting, we are going to need some way to cover ourselves, without adding huge amounts of cost to the individual. It ain't nice, it ain't a pyraty attitude, but it is the real world of liability that we have to operate in.

Hawkyns

OK, Looks interesting. Might well be able to bring the sutlery down. Can we have some more detail if any is available? Actual location, sutler fees, attendee fees, etc.? What weapons to be allowed? Blackpowder OK? Permits needed?

Thanks,

Hawkyns

The Brotherhood of the Blade - A Lord John Grey Novel by Diana Gabaldon

Great mid 18th century stuff, centered around Lord John Grey. Deals with gays in London, military society stuff, and the Seven Years War, all as they relate to Lord John Grey. This is a spin off from the Outlander series which follows a woman plucked from the 20th century and deposited in Scotland, just before Culloden, and her subsequent life in the 18th century. Unfortunately, they are frequently classed as bodice rippers, which they most certainly are not.

Hawkyns

Good and happy day t'ye, Mate. And many more!!

Hawkyns

i have told/asked my husband a million times ---

" WHY WHY WHY dont these period re-enactors just agree to take over some campground and set up a camp that educates AND provides an atmosphere of play { AKA partying and drinking for those who do imbibe}- absolutely no pressure to perform for any audience and JUST PLAY AND LEARN????

Happens all the time. Most military reenactors call them tacticals. They are not scripted, there is no set outcome and there are rarely any spectators. Can be anything from an afternoon get together to something like the one they run on Lake George for the F&I folks. 4 days, scouting, fighting, camping and you are tactical for the entire time. Your camp can be attacked at any hour, day or night, they use ambushes, skirmishes, anything that you might have seen in the 1750's in the region. Including boats on the lake.

Treks are another form. A bunch of guys get together and go into the woods for a day or a few days. Maybe you hunt for dinner, maybe it's just a backpacking trip with period kit and guns. Very common. Or they'll take canoes down a stretch of wilderness river.

Rendezvous are another variation. People get together and live the period for a few days. Instead of battles, they have target shooting and axe throwing competitions. Traders set up and there is period shopping and trading.

Or, as I said, some of us will get to move into a living history village for a few days. We become the inhabitants and do all the things that would be neccesary to keep a village going.

None of these require spectators and many of them do not allow them. We are out there to perfect our skills and to learn to appreciate the life of our ancestors. After a few days, or even a couple of weeks with no electricity, no phones, no computers and no modern distractions, you really get to appreciate the simple life.

What I haven't seen yet is something like this for the pyrate community. Partially, it's because we don't have the type of events that would lend themselves to that sort of thing. We can have a drunken carrouse anywhere, but where can we actually set up a carreening camp with an actual ship to work on and all the tasks that need doing. also, we are so fragmented that we we don't have an overall organising body that could set something like this up. Even without the ship, a large camp would require logistics, front money, and probably insurance. Sometimes, our independant attitude works against us.

Hawkyns

It's not really another direction. These are things that affect our interpretation and authenticity. Children are always an issue. I've seen the gamut, from 3 week olds who are in period kit, and who never have anything but wooden, period toys as they grow up, to the kids whose parents won't separate them from their modern toys and electronics. My experience (and we have had several kids in the regiment) is that the ones who are as immersed as the parents adapt better and generally make better kids, especially if it is started early. They are more likley the ones who are considered to be part of the regiment, considered and treated more like short adults than kids. The ones who are given options to bring modern stuff are the ones who have the most trouble being parted from it when it does become neccesary. They are also the ones not likely to stay around when they become teens. Treat them as a functional part of the unit from the word go, expect the same standards of them, and don't treat them like kids. It worked well for us.

Medical issues are another point to consider. One of our camp followers had severe carpal tunnel syndrom and had to wear a brace, 24/7. I worked with her and made a brace out of leather and brass that buckled on and gave her the same support as her plastic one that she wore through the week. Eyeglasses can be replaced by contacts or by early style eyeglasses that are available. Meds are easy to conceal in a period tin in a haversack or ditty bag. Even crutches can be made to a period pattern, as one of our lads did when he lost his foot in a motorcycle accident. (no, he did not stop turning out). the one thing I have not yet figured out how to deal with is the C-pap. the noise through the night can be very disconcerting for the tents around. Fortunately, it's only an issue for us, not for the public.

You can work around anything. Many of the problems were the same for period folks, so it's easy to use the same remedies they did. For the more modern stuff, it takes a bit of research and some roundabout thinking to come up with something that's not out of place.

Hawkyns