Swashbuckler 1700

Did the buccaneers use the plain black flag in 17th century? and did Drake too so in 16th century? in any case we have good description of Worleys black flag and he died in early 1719 and operated mainly in 1718 and he had black flag. So even then when yellow was popular black were in use but that is nothing new.... and in 1720 black flag was really popular not to metion of flag references later in 1720s... And many references like Roberts' flags was described in the Boston Gazette, 22nd August 1720 as "a Black Flag with Death's head and a cutlass in it". And England's flag was certainly black... it is unlikely that black flag would have suddenly come in the use but since you are not saing that it would have happened like that there is not need for debate I was now mainly talking with myself now...

To me quote says that Shelvocke also believed that skeleton was the pirate symbol yes? (in reality it only one of many but indeed it was) So he believed that pirate flags had black skeleton on yellow backround. So this quote almost says that yellow flag should have had skeleton to be real pirate flag (since he said that eagle was meanigfull so if the flag had have no black markings it would not do as pirate flag). but skull/deaths head was also common (Wynne 1700, Bb 1718, worley 1718, Bonnet 1718 they don't fit to skeleton gategory perhaps not in yellow either) I mean that he believed that pirates generally used yellow flag with skeleton but what about flag with deads heads?... In any case yellow was one of the pirate flag colors and we should add yellow flag with the black and red jolly Rogers under the pirate flag title in our minds. For some reason I have started to think John Quelch's flag as yellow one since it practcally fits to gategory.... perhaps that flag alongside with some others gave the idea of yellow pirate flag to Shelvocke BTW is there evidence ( hair-splitting forgive me ) of that that Shelvocke's intimidation work or did his victims just wondered "what is the Holy Roman Empire doing here?"? I find odd that privateer was allowed to use false colors was that not against law or someting...

Well quote is still quite vague but it is good source for that yellow was popular color....Is there actual references for actual some pirate using yellow flag? I am not saying that yellow was not popular color but I would like to know. I don't believe that all flags which color is not specified were yellow but that is not what you are about to say or?

Has it? From The Republic of Pirates book's bage "Blackbeard led a favored subset of his crew to North Carolina’s village capital, Bath, where they took the king’s pardon from Governor Charles Eden. He married a local girl – a fact confirmed by Admiralty documents found while researching The Republic of Pirates " I don't mean the 14 wife stuff but he was really married

Is these statics still reliable http://pyracy.com/index.php/topic/4377-black-back-there-again-are-we/page__p__93086__hl__+yellow%20+flag%20+pirate__fromsearch__1#entry93086

I believe also that the chapter on Roberts is one of the most reliable parts ... and I think bonny, Read and some of the Bb stories are the most improvised and bit less true than Bart's but many odd details like Bb 16 yeard old wife has proven to be true..... And it is really well possible that it was just one government official....

Part of the description of Sierra Leone inserted in the chapter on Davis was later used by John Atkins, surgeon of the Swallow, in his own book. Since Atkins had actually been there and Johnson (as far as we know) had not, the obvious conclusion is that Atkins wrote the description and gave it to Johnson, then reused it in his own book years later. The account of the trial of Roberts' men in the GHP is also taken from the record of the trial kept by Atkins in his capacity as register (a kind of clerk) of the court. Johnson may have got it direct from Atkins, or he may have copied from the printed version, which in turn came from Atkins' record. Although Roberts was reputed to have executed the governor of Martinique, and the rumour was repeated by Johnson, there is no evidence that he actually did so. There's nothing mystical about Johnson Those six or seven men may have actually been: "Thomas Lamburn, whose father and mother live in Robin Hood's Alley in Suffolk Street in the Mint James Bradshaw, living at the Cork, a public house in Cork Lane in Spittlefields and keeps the said house John Cherry, lodging at the White Lion, a public house in Wheeler Street, Spittlefields Thomas Jenkins (whose real name is Francis Channock) to be heard of at the Sign of the Golden Bull or Yorkshire Gray a little about the wet dock in Rotherhithe. Charles Radford, a lodger at Mr Hitchcock's, a musician, near the Watch house in Brook Street in Ratcliffe Thomas Haydon, gone to sea but when at home lodges at Mrs Price's in Elephant Lane Rotherhithe" Of these men, only James Bradshaw appears to have actually been taken up for questioning and committed to the Marshalsea prison, but he claimed to have been forced by Howell Davis and was not brought to trial. The man who accompanied Kennedy was probably "William Callifax, at Dublin near Cable Street". There is some evidence to suggest that at some point Callifax was actually in command of the company. So that part of GHoP is better than the most other parts of it or ? Odd that we cannot know did Bart really killed governor that sort of stuff should be easy to check...

Oh yes, by the early 1720s black was so common a colour that the phrase "black flag" was synonymous with a pirate flag. In 1718 however privateer George Shelvocke wanted to appear intimidating from a distance and so hoisted the colours of the Holy Roman Empire, a black eagle on a yellow field. The reason for doing so, and I'm paraphrasing the original account by one of his officers named William Betagh, was that it was the closest thing they had to a pirate flag, since pirate flags were yellow with a black skeleton. At that date, a yellow flag was not associated with quarantine. This is poing more and more of topic but the quarantine flag's history is not a simple one http://flagspot.net/flags/xf~q.html

I actually insist I would love to read it....

Oh...I think that color did not matter much to pirates ... I believe that reason for yellow and black, white and black, black and white, red and black, red and white or what ever colors was that they were easily visible black stands out from the yellow background as well as white from the black...

But not all pirates even in the 1718 used yellow flags.. In general history In Johnson's General History Worley's (who operated 1718-1719) flag is described as "a black Ensign, with a white Death's Head in the Middle of it.. Other description (tell me the original source please this was from pirate mythory site) "Black Flagg with a Humane Skelleton is it "

while there is really good evidence for yellow pirate flags is there any evidence for it used by any particular pirate... names? Certainly yellow flag with skeleton was surprisingly common style and modern day people find it hard to understand since all are used to black.... Still even yellow flags had black markings so one + for black pirate flag.... Color is actually to me easy to understand and it reminds me of this

Oh yes, by the early 1720s black was so common a colour that the phrase "black flag" was synonymous with a pirate flag. In 1718 however privateer George Shelvocke wanted to appear intimidating from a distance and so hoisted the colours of the Holy Roman Empire, a black eagle on a yellow field. The reason for doing so, and I'm paraphrasing the original account by one of his officers named William Betagh, was that it was the closest thing they had to a pirate flag, since pirate flags were yellow with a black skeleton. At that date, a yellow flag was not associated with quarantine. Good quote but it not suggest that the yellow was the most common color but it seems to me that it was only one of many pirate flag designs that they could easily mimic with national colors... Quote don't also tell how many or who used yellow flags... It also seems to me that if pirate flag was yellow it should had skeleton and that not suggest that lets say Bellamy's J roger in 1717 was yellow since it had skull an bones not whole skeleton in it...

One pirate's flag (Harris' I think, but I might be mistaken since I'm too lazy to check) was decribed as black by one witness and blue by another. I think this is probably down to the dye. True black was very hard to dye and very expensive, but a lot of cheaper very dark colours might be described as black. In the case of the flag I think one witness described what they were supposed to see - a black flag - while the other described what they actually saw - a blue flag. Also, bear in mind that not all pirate flags were black: red was common, there's more than one ref. to a white pirate flag, and there is evidence to suggest that until 1718 at least the most common colour for pirate flags was yellow. The ras de St. Maur reference isn't from Johnson, so you won't find it even in the best editions... And no, I don't think pirates dyed their own black. For what it's worth, in the only period account I can think of describing the application of a design on a pirate flag it was painted. What evidence there is of yellow flags? I like to know...

I also believe that really heavily tarred cloth would be enough to make black appeareance.....

I give someting odd to wonder about:' I had one pirate documentary on dvd and I took snapshot of it and it was this flag picture.. I didnt know were is from but this (old?) picture was used to illustrate the documentary... Yellow flag seems actually intimidating... so did the sailors think (especially if that color had bad name because of plague ships) it also really easily visible color....

I think we can look the only real Jolly Roger while (it is of the gaop period) It has been worn (indeed) but to me it seems that it has never been really black but more someting between dark brown and black... it also looks a little (really little) reddish or bluish and little geen... (perhaps due of fotography)

One pirate's flag (Harris' I think, but I might be mistaken since I'm too lazy to check) was decribed as black by one witness and blue by another. I think this is probably down to the dye. True black was very hard to dye and very expensive, but a lot of cheaper very dark colours might be described as black. In the case of the flag I think one witness described what they were supposed to see - a black flag - while the other described what they actually saw - a blue flag. Also, bear in mind that not all pirate flags were black: red was common, there's more than one ref. to a white pirate flag, and there is evidence to suggest that until 1718 at least the most common colour for pirate flags was yellow. The ras de St. Maur reference isn't from Johnson, so you won't find it even in the best editions... And no, I don't think pirates dyed their own black. For what it's worth, in the only period account I can think of describing the application of a design on a pirate flag it was painted. But black was certainly one of the used colors and there is references to it... but is there many?... Is the yellow reference for plague ships's yellow flag?

Indeed good points there. Was that part on GHoP actual record written by HMS Swasllow's surgeon? ( oh if I could remember were I have read that that it was from surgeons journal) if so it is the one of the most realistic parts of GHoP... Do we have any reason not to believe that what Johnson said about Capt. Roberts's look since even his crew and other period pirates in the same are had nice stuff like fine waistcoats too... I also Believe that B. Roberts section (in the Johnson's book) is one of the best parts since (like I said earlier) that Roberts I believe looted his clothes from the governor of Martinigue who Roberts so brutally executed. So I believe what Johnsons said about Black barts's look since if man loots about 400 ships he could get his hands on some nicer gear. So I firmly believe of what was said about Roberts and because his pirate crew (not all were hang) and activities Involved many people not to mention his former crew mwmbers who were I believe interviewed by the mystical Capt Johnson to his book. But certainly GHoP is not perfect in any part..... BTW Is the Rackhams Calico nickname mentioned in period sources?

So what you say about that Black Bart's crew having so stuff looted in Davis's time...

I started this topic and I don't mind that it has gone offtopic... so let us continue...

About captain clothing.... here is good Foxe's article http://www.piratesin...Captain_947.asp

I think it is safe to say that captains sometimes had a little better outfit... Where John Rackhams nicname Calico Jack come from (I know his calico clothes)but is the "Calico Jack" mentioned in any period sources?

Source of Robert's outfit is the not always the best book "general history of pyrates" but in this matter to me it seems to be corect...Roberts I believe looted his clothes from the governor of Martinigue who Roberts so brutally executed. So I believe what Johnsons said about Black barts's look since if man loots 400 ships he could get his hands on sime nice gear. So I firmly believe of what was said about Roberts and because his pirate crew (not all were hang) and activities Involved many people not to mention his former crew mwmbers who were I believe interviewed by the mystical Capt Johnson to his book.

Prove it. You have presented one instance, the highlighting of which sort of suggests that this procedure might be out of the ordinary. Well pirates were used to slop chests aboard merchant or navy ships and why not use same working system if you meant that I should say why captured sailor clothing would also been sold before the mast and not only finery... If you mean captain stuff I said "sometimes a little better" I believe that reason why the captains took those coats is just because they did not like so buy them since in those ships selling looted clothing was normal and these captains wanted get some finery free and not to give the crew a change to get them...