Gentleman of Fortune

I guess I should have been more specific.... I was wondering if Cannons made for Naval purposes were made from "naval" bronze. That is, would their be "regular" bronze cannons on ships? I understand that "naval" bronze is more expensive then regular bronze... but I guess both are expensive anyway. You mentioned Iron.... any ideas how much an iron 4-8 pounder (made to GAoP specs) would cost? Thanks for the help by the way. GoF

Aye John... I guess it doesn't really have to do with any of the forum titles... its about as poppy as it is plunder i guess. I just thought it would be a nice gesture. and since prizes are plunder... but if you don't want it in PLUNDER.... GOF

HM... The world of cannon aquisition is a well worn path for you so I got a question. Does ANYBODY make a full sized (6-8 pounder) GAoP naval cannon? and Should this be made of Naval Bronze? Thanks GoF

This is the "other" hot debate topic among pirate enthusiast. If we look at the historical evidence, it seems that the majority of pirates wore regular sailor's clothing. Or at least, that is what I gather when i read eye witness accounts of pirate attacks (from the victims), look at trial records and other contemporary descriptions, and look at pictures of pirates that are specific to the GAoP. We do know however, that they would try to wear their best when going ashore, and I believe they would also try to dress for the occasion when attacking another ships. I don't believe that this could be stretched to believing that all pirate wore flashy clothing... A lot of our modern prejudice about the free wheeling pirate spirit muddies the historical waters so much that we can't see the bottom anymore. The majority of acts of piracy during the GAoP seem to have been aimed at commerce raiding in the Caribbean and along the eastern seaboard. More often than not, cargo (or spoils of piracy) would be lumber, foodstuffs, textiles, or ships provisions. There seems to be a notion that every ship on the seas was laden with the latest fashions, just waiting to be stolen by the sailors turned fashion critic pirates. Obviously, if the fantasy aspects of piracy are what appeals to you, the door is open and wide to whatever your heart tells you is appropriate for a pirate to wear. I heard a disclaimer about the SCA's interpretation of the medieval period as "the Middle Ages as they should have been". I think that should be the motto of the bulk of the Piracy community as well…. The Golden Age, as it should have been. Good luck… and keep us updated with your progress!

Ok... so far so good! GoF

I wish they would give us some better pictures of the Townsend short jacket.... GoF

One question per day you sassy devil... The "gunners" jacket. Man I don't know what the hell that thing is based off of. If you check out the post above (hurricane's Morgan pic post) I have posted some other mid 17th century pictures that show a really short bolero style jacket that is specific to that period. It wasn't a sailor's thing but more or less a fashionable thing at the time. Again from the Salacious Historian.... Which seems to be describing the jacket that could be the basis for the "Gunners Jacket" you link too. Sailors had a short jacket of the time too, as it was the most practical thing for aboard ship. It could have the mariners style cuff and could be pretty short as well. Most contemporary sailor pictures we have (even those of pirates) they seem to be wearing this short jacket (not the "gunner jacket" though) Kass may have more to add on the back of the coat details... but as you say, there are several different styles. I guess it might depend on what time frame you are shooting for. I know that there are a lot of folks that believe that fashions hardly changed, but they really did (especially on the upper class end of the scale). So if you are doing a "regular" sailors justaucorps for going ashore. You might follow a bit of an earlier style... like buttons on the left (looking at it) and "holes" on the right with no button "anchoring" the top of the slit. I will also add that for the justaucorps, on the front you can leave the last 8 buttons or so un "cut" that is they are fake buttons (the stitching is around the hole but they don't open to allow a button to fasten). This is also true of the back slit. Just so the button holes as to parallel stithing lines but don't cut them open. Some details http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/Justaucorps.htm Pleas post what you come up with as we would love to see it! GoF

Hurricane. You certainly love a challenge! (i admire that!). Morgan is a tough nut to crack... due to the fact that he had some many distinct phases of his life and he did so many different things. If we can assume that he was born in 1635, had his major pirate/privateer duties from 1660ish (which would make him about 25-30). Militia man and Govenor by the 1670s and dies in 1688. So the tough question is do you portray him as the Buccanneer or the Govenor (or both)? If you go for the Buccanner, you are looking at a mid 1660s to mid 1670 impression. Its not a great picture but its one of around 1665 He seems to be wearing petticoat breeches, very full shirt and that "short jacket" bolero style thing like in your picture. ANother one from the mid 17th Century with similar clothing For your period of interest.... the Salacious Historian (http://www.kipar.org/baroque-costumes/costumes_male.html) says: Which picture of Morgan is the one that you want to "base" yourself on (if any?) GoF

I have put all the nominees so far in the second post to this thread... so if you see it there, you don't have to re-nominate. There are lots of good ones though, and I encourage anyone who is thinking about making one for themselves to go ahead and give it a shot! GoF

SCREEEEEEECHHHHHHHHH! (that's me slamming on the breaks!) Ace.... WTFARTA? Then you OBVIOUSLY grossly misunderstand me and my stance on historical pirate clothing. THAT IS A PIRATE COAT. Now let me qualify this for you. There is no such thing as a "pirate coat" in historical terms. They did not sell them on the street or order them from a catalog.... "Come get your pirate coats, get em while they are hot".... What pirates wore was what was available and fashionalbe to them at the time. In this case, either sailors clothes, or landsmen's clothes. The fashionable coat at the time was the JUSTAUCORPS. Now it is called a "Pirate Coat", "Frock Coat", "long coat" and who knows what else by the masses, but historically speaking, its a Justaucorps. Which is French for "to the Body" because the cut of this coat was close to the body' shape and was not baggy like previous clothing. Now, I have always been a supporter of pirates wearing regular seamen's clothes. Because that is what they were (again, there was no Pirate's GAP or Pirate-Mart for pirate specific clothing.) And all of the pictures that we see of "regular sailors" or even those of period drawn pirates are wearing slop trousers, short jackets, and SHOES. But if you are going to wear a Justaucorps (Pirate Coat, Frock Coat, etc) then it should be modeled on the one in the picture by Hurricane. Now that is a serious Gentlemen's Justaucorps. Its made of heavily embroidered Silk, Passementiere buttons, matching breeches etc etc. Now, A common man or even middle classes would not have such a nice coat, but it would be made similarly but out of wool (possibly linen). But it would try in all respects to mimic that really nice coat. Now its the fantasy pirates that set themselves up for a fall. The justification for wearing a justaucorp is that they "STOLE" thier Justaucorps from a wealthy passanger that was aboard one of their prizes. Well if that is the case, you should have one freakin nice Justaucorp if it was worn by the upper classes! Does that mean that GOF says you can't wear a Justaucorps? NO, it just means that it should probably be a simpler wool version and cut the pretense crap about stolen booty. Its too hard to make a nice justaucorps anyway (That is a upper class one). You are not going to find period style trim from Jo-Annes fabrics, the buttons alone would take a year to make (for more info take a look at my website). And period fabric like that can be had but it is several hundred dollars per yard (again see my website for sources). and lastly Its only insulting to those who have put themselves in a position that they would have to defend someone wearing Joeseph's Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat as a pirate coat because they "Accept" so many other non-pirate coats. When you go down "Fantasy lane" you really paint yourself in a corner. Since there is no historical basis in what you are wearing, or rules to play by in the fantasy camp, and just about everything is allowed, you can't make a judement about what is "more incorrect". And heck "we are just having fun anyway", so pink tu-tu pirate coats should be just as acceptable pirate gear as the Black Goth S&M coat that was originally posted as a "great pirate coat". GoF

Well... if anyone else wants to pony up some prizes they are more then welcome to have have as many category winners as you want! Right now, I am just taking Nominations though, so try and refrain from canvassing support.... Just a "I nominate William Red Wakes" will do. I am having a devil of a time with Rummy3's No matter what browser I am using, It just says "user posted image" GoF

Oh... and you got to give me their entire user name because I am having a devil of a time finding people.... we have tons of people with Rum in their names. And if you mean rummy3, she took her Graphic down so I can't link it in.... Which Siren??? (when its back up, I'll add it!) GoF

I hate to double post, but some of you lot never peek in at plunder (or Twill for that matter) so I wanted to give you a personal invite to join the contest over in PLUNDER If you have been thinking about making a cool signature graphic, now is the time because I am sponsoring a contest for the coolest sig graphic. Make yours now, or nominate someone elses. Nominations and entries are due in by 20 Feb. Prizes... yes there will be a prize. After the entries close, I will make a post "poll" with all the entries on it. After a week of votin' the winner will recieve a prize. Not sure yet... but it will be something usefull. A decent pirate book, A pirate T-shirt, some re-enacting accessories (rope, original 18th Century buttons, etc) or some nice fabric (100+ year old hand woven linen to make some pirate stuff out of).... I am not sure yet... got to think about what it will be. I will know by voting time. GoF

Ok... now wait a freakin' minute. Its not time to start voting or campaining... I just want nominations. Voting will be next week. GoF

Hurricane. Interesting picture. There are several clues... my gut instinct is that its Pre-1700 and Foxe's steals my thunder with a guess for 1680s. BUT.... Generally, stockings were rolled over the tops of the breaches until the 1720s when you start seeing them tucked under the breeches. The smallsword looks like an early style without the D style guard The coat has vertical pockets... usually seen on the early justaucorps. He is seen with what looks to be his own hair, not the full wig that would normally be worn during the time frame and for formal portraiture. (unusual) I would love to see what Kass thinks. She is fresh off of making patterns for all the coats from 1670-1730 so it might be clearer in her mind. GoF

Akkk.... My problem is that you have to widen the definition of pirate coat.... sooooo wide to make that a pirate coat that I don't think it belongs on this forum. Goth coat? Yes Halloween Costume coat? Yes Coat to wear to S&M party? Yes. Because if THAT is a pirate coat. Then this is too and so is this and this is a fireman's uniform GoF

So far... we have Bonny Red Weasel Hurriacane William Red Wake Pirate Pete Skull Pyrate Carter Rummy3 Barbados Sam Hawkyns Captain Siren of the Poesidon Remember to give their entire screen name if you are going to nominate someone... it makes it easier for me to hunt them down and link to their pic! Cascabel

I really admire some of the members signature "graphics" here at the pub. Somebody has put some serious time into them... so I thought I would have a little contest. I will take nominations this week for the top signature graphics, and then post a poll next week. The biggest vote getter will get a prize from my treasure chest. I am not sure what yet, but it could be anything from a T-shirt, a set of original buttons, a book, fabric for a costume etc..... On second thought, I will say that the dead line for "entries" is 20 February. That will give some folks that have been meaning to get a signature graphic together a chance (and maybe some motivation?. Good luck to all! GoF

OK... maybe I should try Pat Hands new system. Or for all you who think I am just a nay sayer here is your chance to strike back..... I saw this listed at another forum, but I think it is a good price for what it is (the other forum is http://frontierfolk.net/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/index.php ) The description is There are more detailed photos here http://photobucket.com/albums/v189/waltei/...i/Sale%20Items/ He is asking $120 I would PAT RATE this as a 4/4 I can't tell the quality of workmanship as I can't handle it, but it seems to be very well made and of appropriate materials. I give it 4 authenticity stars as I believe that this coat cut and style place it a little past the GAoP. If it had more buttons down the front, it might get a 4.5. His email is (REPLACE *AT* with @) waltei*AT*btsd.k12.wi.us It reminds me of this photo from Foxe's site

I was so busy replyin' to other post that this one slipped under the wire so I am just catching up. Not to open healing wounds again but Harbor Master, you said somthing that is making my little brain twitch... Yes, Piracy does span a huge amount of time... probably from the first week a ship was on the water to right now. That is why I usually use the handy dandy GAoP in just about all of my post refering to pirate things. Which is loosly defined as 1680ish to about 1730ish "The Justaucourp is to new for the GAoP" ???? Is this a typo? Did you meant to say It is new to the GAoP or that it is too new for theGAoP... ooops, wait a minute. your next line clears it up The Justaucorps actually comes into play around 1670ish and lasts in some degree through the end of the end of the 18th century look here for general info http://www.kipar.org/baroque-costumes/cost...tumes_male.html or here http://www.marquise.de/en/1700/menguide/18men1.shtml still... http://www.costumes.org/history/100pages/leloirX1.htm So its perfect for the GAoP... GoF

Again, though some might not believe it, my intention is not to pit one side versus the other. If you want that kind of dialogue, then search the archives here (or for any other re-enacting period you care to look into... they all have the same "problems"). I will say this though, in Reply to ACE I guess that that IS my point. There is nothing for sale here only links to things that are sold elsewhere, mainly e-bay. And our Moderator is very democratic and believes in the rule of law so he has to let the gate stay “open and wide” But if you really want to see what is out there "authentic or not" just go to e-bay and search "pirate coat". You will get an eye full. Again. I will admit that I am an a$$hole about certain things, but I have come a loooong way baby on some other things as well. I recognize the importance of the pirate "entertaining" community out there, as I could care less about “edutaining” the "public" any more anyway (Hey, I am just being honest) so for those of you who enjoy it, thanks for doing the stuff that I don’t want to do. And besides, 95% of the public that goes to the events would rather have their picture taken with Ace in his Johnny Depp kit than me anyway… even if I was wearing a complete authentic original sailors kit from 1717 borrowed from the Maritime Museum in Greenwich! But for me, I don’t want that 95% fawning on me anyway (ok, except for the hot chicks). I am more interested in that 5%. Tjhe ones that might actually know something about maritime history, and want to know the minutia about linen ticking, or what ship life might have really been like. (And I am sure Ace rolls his eyes out of his friggin’ head when someone asks him about linen ticking! ) So again, we have kind of a symbiotic relationship that we can use to our advantage if we choose to. I won’t disparage your right to wear Dracula’s coat with a tri corn and call yourself a Fantasy Pirate enthusiast; so please don’t chastise me when someone posts a link to an e-bay auction that has a "Great Pirate Coat" that is nothing like anything that ever existed in the 17th/18th century, and I post a reply saying so. GoF

****WARNING**** ****WARNING**** ****WARNING**** Those with delicate sensibilities regarding authenticity please don’t read. PAT While your idea is interesting in theory, the reality is that it would be difficult to enforced and rife with opportunity to abuse it. First, there are A LOT of varying degrees of knowledge about historical accuracy here at the pub. And even among those that I would consider "knowledgeable", there would be differences of opinion in what would be considered a 4 or 5.... One of the things that I consider a problem is that the PLUNDER section here at the pub has kind of devolved into a shameless self promotion area for folks that have a business or those that are looking for buyers for the latest thing that they have listed on e-bay, or the latest pirate best-seller they wrote.. Now since there are no official "rules" for what is and is not allowed, AND that fact that, rightfully so, this forum serves both the Authentic pirate living history types as well as the Fantasy Pirate ren-faire types the gate for consideration is open and wide. How many times in the last month alone have we seen topics with subject lines like: This makes me beg the question: "Great for what???" The answer more and more is becoming "Great for me if you buy it!" What I would rather see is someone post: or even better still I have ranted about this in the past, that I really get torqued by folks that seem to be in the business of selling/making/writing pirate related things, but the first time we find out about them is in their first post on the board which is an advertisement for their products. It makes me wonder where they have been? Now granted, this is all my not so humble opinion, but I can't help but think, "If you like pirate stuff so much, where have you been?". If I was writing a book about pirates, fiction or non-fiction, I would have been a member of various net forums first. I would have been finding out from folks that have been spending loads of time studying and researching first, then wrote the book and used the forum as a medium for selling my stuff. I also have to wonder if some of these "makers" of pirate clothing have ever been to a museum to see 17th/18th century clothing, have ever glanced through The Cut of Men's Clothes, or even asked a knowledgeable textile historian what is correct ***BEFORE*** they made the clothing! Soooooo When someone post a pirate coat for sale here at the pub with no disclaimer what so ever, It almost begs to have a qualifier put on it by an established member of the forum. I would hate for someone who was new to the hobby and wanted to do this correctly (read historically accurate) to buy something inaccurate because they felt that since it was listed here at the pirate hangout, it must be acceptable. Those of you that are in to the Fantasy "spirit of piracy" gig do not have this problem. You can wear anything you want and it is self justified. But those of us that are trying to represent a historical time period do not have that luxury. I am not pitting one against the other as I feel that its a big enough world for both, and in most instances, WE NEED EACH OTHER. But that being said, the Authentic side of the house has "rules" or at least parameter to work within, so we constantly have to monitor what is available to our disciples. Granted, there is a tactful way to do this without stepping on other toes, but some are better than others when it comes to constructive criticism. And I don't think that one-post-wonders who drop in to make a buck should be given a free pass regardless of how honorable their intentions may be.

I would imagine that the plain silk ones would be ok... but I am not sure of what kind of silk it is. If its Duoponi then I would stay away. If you search the plunder section, I think you will find some similar threads.... In one of them there is a link to a lady that makes period style Calico (hand stamps it) and if you could get that on linen it would be as good as anything going (and better than most). GoF

AHA! Thanks Oderless.... You were on the right trail I thought it was "Wicks" the second part is "Black BRANDON" When you google "Hicks" and "Black Brandon" -"Brandon, Black" (that minus sign was important! You get http://www.wheathampstead.net/tinsel/forsa...e/catalogue.htm (scroll down to see the other prints in the series) Hicks is an actor portraying "Black Brandon" in a childrens toy theatre Its a tinsel Print from a Childrens Toy Theatre.... which were populare in the 19th Century! Case Closed

Foxe and Adam (and the few others that may care) I just had a friend visit me here in Germany (she lives in the UK) and, since she is a knitter, wanted to go to the local knit shop in top. She was amazed at how "cheap" the wool was here (Germany). She bought about 60 Eruos worth at about $3.25 per skien/ball and she said that the exact same wool would have been over $200 ($10-15 a ball) in the states or uk. Hand died, hand spun wool should be expensive. At the price that you pay in the UK or States, I would imagine that there is at least $10-20 in yarn alone. The problem that these hats have is that they don't peg out your "average" pirate re-enactors "sexy" meter. Its not going to look great with bucket boots and poet shirt..... But could you imagine trying to sell this list on a thrum cap? Image above from Quality Caps GoF