Gentleman of Fortune

There are several establishments that sell flintlocks.... its just a question of how much do you want to spend. I have some Flintlock Info on my Pirate Webpage that might be worth checking out.... http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/arms.htm On the cheaper end of the scale, you have the Queen Anne Kit from Pedersoli. This can be found for less than $300 and is the kind of kit that you can put together in a weekend. Then there are the India arms "remanufacturers". These are the folks that are having guns made in India, and then refinishing or embellishing them a bit before selling them to folks like us. The big three are Loyalist Arms (Canadian), Middlesex Village Trading Company (US) and The Descriminating General. They all have variations ofy the same guns so check each one out. After that, you can either build a gun yourself from cast parts (From the Rifle Shoppe) or have a gun built for you from parts from a competent builder like Mike Brooks or Ben Coogle or ??? Good luck and let us know what you decided to do. GoF

This is an interesting topic that was burried in another discussion, so I thought I would dig it out to see the sunlight as it affects a population of Pirate re-enactors. The real question for those of us who need to correct thier vision is: What kinds of glasses are appropriate for the Golden Age of Piracy. For the sake of this discussion I will exand the definition of GAoP to 1690ish to 1725. The short answer is, for glasses with temple arms (like modern glasses) they are not period. They were not invented until 1727 in England, and I would imagine that their wide spread use wasn't noted till the 1730s. A time line for eyewear http://www.antiquespectacles.com/history/t...gh_the_ages.htm For authentic eyewear, you need a type of glasses referred to as Nose Spectacles or Nuremburg Spectacles. This is what they look like (from antiquespectacles.com) At this point, I am not even sure who makes a pair of glasses like that but I will poke around and see if I can hunt some down. At the end of the day though, if you can't afford corrective eye surgery or wear contacts, you need something to see. Jas Townsend sells a copy of the 1727 and later style of glasses here http://jas-townsend.com/product_info.php?p...products_id=166 This is what they look like If you are going to wear glasses with temple arms, I suggest getting these as at least they don't look like modern glasses. For $35, they should be within your budget and you could probably have basic lenses put in them for less than $100. Good luck GoF

MerryDeath Apparently the beta only works on macs with FIrefox 1.07. Try downloading that, or, PM' me your details and I will put you on. GoF

Bump!

Yes Caraccioli, gruesome reminder of what this is all really about... did the passage say what they thought he had done? (what did they want him to confess to?) GoF

Thats a good idea too Caraccioli. Maybe its time to add more moderators again? Or at the very least, give moderators multi area cabability (so that Black John could move topics between twill, plunder, beyond piracy etc. Just some ideas. PS This really only apples to Plunder and Twill where the SAME topics come up over and over and over. "Hey where can I find an authentic sword for cheap?" egad! GoF

I would hate to clutter up the fine forum we have here, but there are certain topics that keep poping up. Might it be possible to creat a sticky post for each of the following? Hats Swords Firearms Clothing So that instead of creating new thread (and rehashing the same topic) that newbies and crusty oldies could find it all in one thread Just an idea GoF

No problem... but NOW you got everyone stewing in their juices over coming up with the DREAM pirate thesis! GoF

Which is just so interesting that at the same time we are discussing the Socialist nature of Piracy, there is a discussion about how DEMOCRATIC pirates were (over in Twill). Make you say hmmmmm.... GoF

I think that we need a sticky topic of Links for 17th/18th Century. I have a favorites file full of them, and John Has been collecting them since he bought his Commodore 64! So, here is the challenge. Send in your cool Links with a short description. Yeah, it might take a bit longer to clean it up, but maybe we could categorize them so they would be easier to search. Here is an example of what I mean Catagories: 17th/18th Century Groups: GROUP- http://www.piratebrethren.com/ Authentic Pirate Re-enactment GROUP on the East Coast GROUP- http://www.petrobrigada.ru/peter/gallery/gallery_e.htm Russian re-enactment group portraying soldiers of Peter The Greats Army Period Weapons (Info and Sources) INFO- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/1945.../Guns/Locks.htm Information on Early Firearm Locks SOURCE- http://www.earlyrusticarms.com/gungallery.htm Maker of reproduction Firearms Period Clothing (Info and Sources) INFO- www.gentlemenoffortune.com Good information source for Authentic Pirate clothing and Equipment Museums and Extant Examples MUSEUM- http://www.manchestergalleries.org/html/co...collection.html Extant clothing of all periods Ships: SHIP-http://www.kalmarnyckel.org/ Replica 17th Century Sweedish ship out of Delaware Pirate Biographies BIO-http://www.privateerdragons.org/pirates_famous.html Great alphabetical listing of Pirates and when they were active General Info for 17th/18th Centuries INFO-http://www.geocities.com/livinghistoryresources/ General resources for 18th Century You get the idea GoF

WoW! Great post Eric. I should say that my personal view is that without Hollywood, pirates would be little more than a footnote of history. When I say "Hollywood" though, I lump in all the Novelist (Stevenson), Playwrights (who have always romanticized Piracy), and Artist (Pyle) throughout history that have turned the historical aspects of Piracy into an Entertainment vehicle. I have no problem with this... really. Would we really be doing what we are now if there had never been a Treasure Island, Peter Pan, Pirates of Penzance, Howard Pyle or Captain Blood? Its easy to sit back now and point the finger at them collectively and say, "boy did they get it wrong", but in fact, they planted the seed of interest that has been watered and given sunlight to grow into the interest that we have today. Along similar lines, how many fewer members would this forum and others have had Johnny Depp and PoTC not been made? That being said, there are a number of us who look past the celluloid film to determine for ourselves how things really were. Which brings us back to questions like the ones that Kaizoku originally asked. The field is soooo open for a really cool Thesis that it Naturally attracts the members here like a moth to flame. Soooooooo I will throw out the question: If you got to choose a "pirate" inspired thesis, what would it be? GoF

kaizoku Ok man... don't get your knickers all knotted up. We are here to help you know Remeber though, that most of the folks on this board are really passionate about Maritime and Pirate history. But its not like our spouses want to hear about Democracy on board pirate ships so when we get the chance to discuss, and dare I say debate the topic, we jump in with both feet. You asked the question, and we gave the answer (and a whole lot more ). I think its cool that you are getting to write a scholarly work on Pirates (most of the regular posters here in Twill would love to have the time to do such a task) and most would be willing to help. But if we see someone going down a path that doesn't chime with serious research, we want to let that person know before they just end up repeating the old Hollywood Pirate line that is not congruent with historical fact. Also, when you ask the question... it then takes on a life of its own on a forum like this. 2 months from now, someone is going to see your original post and have their own two cents to add, even though you feel that the topic and question have already be covered ad ad nauseam. That is just the nature and the beauty of this forum. And the added bonus is that there are folks on this board that will take the devil’s advocate despite their personal beliefs which might seem like an affront at first, but actually help to look at the problem from a fresh angle (and maybe even change some points of view). So, as hard as it may seem, don’t take it personally. In fact, you should be proud of yourself to be the author of 2 post with over 300 hundred views and almost 40 replies! GoF

Phillip Your comments are most welcome! The point that I was making though is that its "common knowledge" that Pirates created Democratic Societies on board their ships, period refrences don't support that in the majority of cases. I aknowledge that their are instances (like the two you pointed out from Johnson) but there are a LOT of others that dont. By the way, Edward England seemed kind of vague. I couldn't pin down a democratic rise for him as a Captain.... what did you get? GoF

SO HERE IS WHERE EVERYONE HAS BEEN!!! There has just been too much here for me to chime in on stuff that was said earlier... what the hell has this thread been doing in Pirate Pop? Anywhooo.... I am on the side that says that pirates were just criminals of the day. Out of work when the war was over (didn't someone say that 98% of the pirates were former sailors?) and looking for a simpler way to fast riches. Which I will say just ties in to the Admiralty Slops Contracts as being a good starting point for a pirate kit! The high literacy rate IS interesting. But just becuase you can read, doesn't mean that you DO read. Guess I am going to have to drop by Pirate Pop more often.... GoF

So.... you intend to write a thesis that makes the claim (and reinforces the widely held belief) that Pirate communities were democratic, despite the convincing amount of evidence that at least suggests that the were not? Which means that if a point is easily "defeated" its not a good basis for a research paper. I am curious as to what evidence you have gathered so far that would make a good argument that Pirate Captains were elected? This is not an attempt to pick a fight or anything, I am just curious. How about this, I will go through my resources and find instances where there is no appearance of democracy and post it here. You find the Pro-democracy information and post it as well (which you are going to have to do anyway for your paper). GoF ****EDIT***** I should say that if anyone else wants to play (pro or con), you are certainly welcome to come abaord!

I AM living in Germany now. Have been here for 3 years and my German is ok. My wife and I are part of the DoD base support (school teachers) and we spend a lot of time on base (which is like a little American City). We live off post though and my 3 year old is going to German kindergarten. I have had to ratchet up my German so that I can communicate with her teachers more effectively. A lot of German speak great English... except the ones that you NEED to speak english to (The Telepnone company, The Bank, Internet Service Provdier help desk etc) If a German can speak English, they are excited to try their English out and I have been lazy and usually let them speak English instead of me trying to use my German to them. GoF

The Link Again so that you don't have to scroll back http://www.frappr.com/pyracypub Red Jayme Flint... wow! Large Photo graph! We can see the suds on that Bud Light Clearly! Marie Donnalley: Wow! 6' 1" ! Mmmmmmm..... tall pirate babe aghhhghghhg... GoF

Not to beat a dead horse on this... but again, I think that SOME Captains may have been elected. The majority of the others seem to have been 1) The Main conspirator that naturally assumed the roll of Captain. 2) Someone "made" a Captain. Like when BlackBlack beard captures another ship that he wants to add to his fleet, He appoints someone to assume the captaincy of that new ship. 3) Someone who makes themselves "Captain" after buying a ship and fitting it out for piracy (ala Major Bonnet) Now there is record of, when a Pirate ship was not doing to well, that the old Captain was removed and a new one selected from the crew but I think that in no way represents an entire movement of Democracy aboard ship (or even as a means of Captain selection). Foxe... where are you buddy? GoF

Good eye Cascabel Actually I cheated and used the barrel picture from TRS's website as I had taken down my photography equipment and forgot to take a picture of the barrel. It does have a breech plug though. It should keep me busy over the winter... spring.... summer? I have no idea how long it will take but I am a really compulsive person and my modus operandi is usally to get things done can or I will loose interest and move on to something else. That being said, if I don't take my time with this... I will F$%$#$ it up. Cascabel Where should I start with this project? GoF

And I wish they would post photos of themselves too! Christine must have thousands of photos.... maybe I should pick one for her! GoF

It took 1 year and 2 weeks but it finally arrived (on my birthday no less!) Take a look here http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/handmortar.htm GoF

ooooops! Sorry John Say.... Can I have permission to use a picture of the Pirate Brethren greating a Launch from the Kalmar Nyckel as the Logo? GoF

Black John... I hope you don't take any of this discussion/debate as a personal attack. Have you noticed that whenever the debate about Historical Piracy takes a philosophical turn, you and I are the only ones to seem to stick around. (Foxe and Josh Red must be hitting the Rum Bottle). I APPRECIATE the role of the Devil's advocate, as it gives me (and others) an opportunity to throw out our personal theories and have others who may have read (or remember reading) something else (or have a different interpretation) run it through the grinder. Sometimes they come through stronger; other times its back to the drawing board. So… good on you mate. Anyway. I had intended to go through Johnson and see if any mention was made to Democratically elected Captains, or situations where decisions of the crew went against the pirate Captain and how it was resolved. Then life got in the way and I had to change a freakin’ poopy assed diaper. I know that Josh Red has recently read Dampier and its still fresh in his mind. You and Foxe have read a ton of stuff as well. I am intrigued by the whole mess because the Democracy of Pirate Groups is a well held belief that may not stand up very well to historical scrutiny. Since, this is actually an assignment for Kaizoku, he can pull a lot of the weight too. My main recommendation to him as pertains to the original topic post would be…. “not so fast”. Do your own research into how they operated and then decide whether they were generally “Democratic” like popular legend, or in actuality, something else altogether. And, of course, post his finding here! GoF

Thats Democracy in action? Democracy seems to have been that the majority of Pirates wanted to kill that man, and had the majority won, then I would say it was Democracy, but one man saying, "Hey, I say this is a good man and if you kill him, you gotta kill me"..... Doesn't exactly sound like the Declaration of Independence to me. All I am saying is that the common lore of our modern understanding is that All Pirates and Ships operated as Democratic societies. I am saying that period refrences provide that there was Some Democracy, but that I don't buy that it was the rule (or even in the majority of cases). I think that instead, pirate societies had to operate on rules, just like regular society at the time. Maybe more leeway was given, due to the fact that in order to retain the services of the pirates Captains had to allow more on and off deck. Do we really believe that Bart Roberts or Black Beard handed out ballots to decide what there next move would be? Do we believe that if the crew of Black Beard did not think that he was doing the best job that he would have stepped down to let someone else lead? Heck, you can't even run a Pirate RE-ENACTING group like that, let alone a criminal organization where if you get caught it almost certain death! I think, instead, that Black Beard would have probably killed anyone else on board that would have had designs on sleeping in his cabin. I listed the first 4 Pirates in Johnson. None of them show that democracy was the rule of the day on board either. There is no mention of any of the four being elected by their crews to be their leaders either. Whats more, we also have a belief that the Black man was equal to the whites in pirate societies. Again, there are instances where this may have been the case, but we also see plenty of evidence where slaves were slaves, and in fact, a commodity to be looted as plunder. This is another area where what we "know" about pirates is painted with a very broad brush. I will look into the rest of Johnson (when I have some more time) and I encourage anyone else out there to read Dampier, Wafer, Ringrose and post instances of Pirate Democracy as well as Pirate Authoritarian rule. Bottom line for me is that I think we take a lot of the pirate lore for granted, and even look over the parts that don't help our own personal theisis regarding pirates. If I was Kaizoku's prof, and he gave me a paper stating that Pirates conducted their ships/affairs/business according to Democratic principles, It wouldn't take very long to find evidence of the contrary. (no offence Kaizoku. GoF

Maybe a better College Thesis would be how most Pirate Ships were not as Democratic as we are made out to believe. I know I am the contrary indian, but it seem that the pirate ships, crews and captains that we know the most about were the ones that ruled by Dictatorship. I know that we like to think that it was a love fest aboard ship as far as democracy goes but my wager it wasn't as widespread as the pirate community hopes. From Johnson: Avery: got his command by instigating and leading a take over/mutiny Martel: No mention of how he obtained Captaincy of his ship. But this is interesting, apparently, when they were faced with being caught by the RN's Captain Hume, the pirates "quit there ship and set her on fire with 20 Negroes in the hold" Seems they took twenty Negroes with them and killed the rest.. Now wait just a minute... I thought that pirates were supposed to be a free for all-love one another utopian society? Seems like the slaves that they captured they kept as slaves (to do menial ship work or to selll later?) and instead of "letting them go" the burned them with the ship! Teach: Was not "voted in" but put in charge of a prize ship by another pirate captain (Benjamin Hornigold). Horningold goes to Procvidence where he surrendered for mercy ONLY AFTER giving Teach the captaincy of the large ship that Teach re-names Queen Anne's Revenge. Teach later runs into the Pirate Captain Major Bonnet, and finding him unfit as Captain, takes his ship and replaces Bonnet with Richards. Notice here that there was no vote, no black spot, no straws drawn. Teach PUT Richards in Charge. This is a theme with Black Beard. As he takes ships, he INSTALLS the Captain (Isreal Hands is appointed by Black Beard. Major Bonnet: Bought his ship and fitted it out to be a pirate. It seems that it was obvious that he had no real Naval skills or leadership abilities. His crew seems to have been divided but never gave him the black spot or "voted" another Captain in. It was Black Beard who eventually "relieved" him of command and Appointed Richards as the ships Captain. England: Johnson doesn't mention how he got his captaincy, but it does say that England was a Mate aboard a ship that was taken by another Pirate (Winter). I'll post more later.... GoF