Gentleman of Fortune

Those are cool aren't they. I think that Pete said he got the photos from somone on this list that lives in the Netherlands (Charity?). I think there is the answer. There is a Batavia in the Netherlands as well and I think they have a dockyard museum. More info is needed! GoF

Yes... it isa small suit and there is conjecture that it is meant for a boy, but Captain Sterling, you would have to admit that Oliver Twist ain't wearing this suit... I have seen it first hand, and it extremely nice..... Even if you do the sewing yourself, its not an easy project to tackle. Yes, you can sew it, but you are going to have to learn to do passimenterie buttons and where would you find the trim??? Jo Anne's doesn't carry trim like that. The reproductions out there this nice are few and far between. It will take dedication, skill, and money beyond what the average to even experienced pirate-renactor is willing to do. So, I say, a fancy gentlemen's outfit is hard to put together. So I recomend not going that approach. I would think a simpler justaucorps made of lesser quality wool with cloth covered buttons (or pewter) would be easier and more realistic for a common sailor. I just have a hard time with a pirate saying they stole their coat from a "gentlemen" and their coat is not shaped right, is amade of cheezy synthetic velvet, and has 2" diameter pewter buttons... (which of course is ok if you are doing the fantasy thing....) GoF

I was trying to find the thread to post this, as Pirate Pete has posted this picture in just about every boot thread The story was that these boots were recovered from the Batavia, a ship that wrecked off of Australia in 1629. They looked too good to be true, and even if they were almost 100 years earlier than the GAoP, it would still be interesting to the discussion that boots of this (or any) style were found. But they just seem too nice..... So I started poking about in the Batavia wreck museum's website. They have a database of artifacts. When you search "shoes" or "boots" all that comes up are fragments of shoes... not a mint conditioned pair! So I e-mailed the museum and included the picture that has been so often posted here (see above) Here is the resonse that i got from Myra Stanbury of the museum A little sarcastic, maybe but I think we can take the Batavia boot off of the table in our discussion. GoF

Capn Bo... See. I told you pikes would sell. I don't think their is anyone making them.... and they seem simple enough. I will PM you some Axe and pike info. You don't have to apologize for machine sewing. I understand how that thing called life gets in the way. Authenticity is really a goal. People that call themselves authentic are just heading down the road toward the goal. Nobodies kit is perfect but getting there, to me, is half the fun. As to the buttons, I will throw in a bag of complete ones too! GoF

ohhhhh.... don't be so hard on the LT.... Can you imagine that, coming from me??? There are a lot of pirate re-enactors that cling to the belief of steal and wear pirate clothing. I agree, to a point but... LT This topic comes up from time to time, and while I agree that pirates would probably upgrade their wardrobe when the oportunity arose, the real question is what kind of up grade opportunities would present themselves to your average pirate. My comments usually pertain to the GAoP (1690-1720ish) and for that time frame, in general, the Pirates would be raiding commerce ships along the eastern seaboard and/or the Carribean. More ofthen than not, these ships would contain building materials, foodstuffs, indian trade items, bulk cloth etc. Now, I am sure there was the occasional passanger going to the Americas with their fancy clothing items on board, but they would be far more likely to run into a undermanned trade ship then the anything else. That ship would probably contain sailors, in a condition not much better or worse then the pirates. Now, you CAN re-create the persona of the lucky pirate captain that "stole" the latest fashions on their way to America.... and you would be in good company with the 100s of other captains at the faire that did the same thing. Won't bother me a bit.... But, in the realm of authentically portraying GAoP pirates, common isn't a bad word, its a goal.... so the bulk of us are trying to look like the average sailor. And lastly, As I said in a previous post, it really is hard to put together a high fashion gentlemen's out fit... this is what you are shooting for http://www.vam.ac.uk/collections/fashion/r...wool/index.html which would be a serious undertaking... GoF

Yeah... I am still waiting to see what you are going to make out of it! For those interested, I found some hand loomed linen, that is pre-1900 in manufacture. It was a decent sized bolt, but the older looms are kind of narrow. I thought Pat could make some pretty crunchy stuff out of it. I thought about doing a box pass for the piracy group... Basically, I would put a bunch of piracy related stuff in a box (rope, buttons, Black Beard pirate doll etc) and have folks "sign up for the box". I would mail it to the first person on the "list". That person could take anything out of the box, but would have to put something back in of equal (or greater value). Soo... you could take out the Osprey book on pirates, but you would have to put something of at least $12-15 back in. An effort would have to be made not to take a $60 item and replace it with 6 $5 items. Of course, the whole thing would be tracked on line here.... we would post the box contents and participants would list their takes and puts so everyone would have an idea what was coming their way. It works well with 6-10 folks.... GoF

Speaking of things to make.... The other universal ship weapon is the half pike. The pike heads look simple enough (to someone who doesn't know a friggin thing about metal work) but if you are interested in making some coin, I am sure they would sell. GoF

That sounds like a plan.... Hey, I posted in the plunder forum that i have a bag of a bunch of buttons... 1600-1800 or so that have been "dug" up from mainly the UK and some from Germany. Most of them have lost their loops, but if you are handy with a soldering iron, you could probably make some work. If your interested.... I'll send them to you. Most are made of pewter but there are a few tombac ones as well. I am guessing the bulk are F&I or Rev War era civilian buttons. GoF

Actually, that should say buttons free to GOOD home... my 1 year old son was i my lap and I had to type fast.... anyway I have some buttons.... These buttons probably date back to the 17th and go through the19th centuries. Most of these have broken or mising shanks.... so if you can solder or weld, you could have some interesting original buttons. did I mention that they were free, to a good home????? GoF

Hey Josh How about a book club? You send me the Coffe Trader, I'll send you.... Have you read 1632 By Eric Flint? Or?????? GoF

Capt Bo.... I have to laugh! When you first came in here, you seem tired of the authenticity thing and just wanted a period to relax in.... Now I see your true colours! Youre as rabid as the rest of us! Welcome aboard! I enjoy your insight and experience. Its not often we get "newbies" to the board that add so much so quickly! As far as axes go... can you make a boarding axe (or can you reccomend someone who could do a decent job?) GoF

HM... Ok be honest... DO YOU EVER SLEEP???? GoF ps good luck with you latest project!

Found this link today... its about French trade goods http://www.lanouvelle-france.com/index.html pretty neat, I would think anything on a ship heading to the Americas (for trade) would be fair game for any Buccaneer to use (or Pirate to plunder). GoF

"bump" is forum speak for "nothing to add, but another post will put this thread back at the top of the forum list and make it easier for me and others to find" GoF

This will get you started.... google 17th Century Clasp Knife or go here.... http://www.lanouvelle-france.com/claspknifetypes.htm GoF

Bump! This is a great group that all seem to be starting from the same place (in understanding anyway....) if you are at all interested, I encourage you to stop by! GoF

Yes... Pete is a bulldog isn't he.... I can't help but encourage him though.... Because one day, in his search to prove boots ( or us wrong) or whatever... The lightbulb is gonna click, and we will have one more tenacious, thoughtful, inquisitive re-enactor on the dark side... with us. you go Pete! GoF ps Bwahhahahhaaaha

I love you guys! Brings tears to my eyes when I see that folks notice the same things I do! GoF

Also, A lot of the fabrics on their site go back even farther than the GAoP... I have contacted them about this, and their reasoning seams to be that they are really focussing on F&I and Rev War (not that they wouldn't sell you fabric for GAoP use, that is just how they have set up their website...) If there is something you like, let us know and we can give you our not so humble opinions! GoF

neat.... http://www.vam.ac.uk/collections/fashion/r...wool/index.html all you well dressed captains, take head! GoF ps other stuff.... inc women's http://www.vam.ac.uk/collections/fashion/r...ound/index.html

DasnDanger Interesting... the Puss in Boots thing. I guess Puss in Latchet Shoes doesn't have the same ring to it. But, though you are correct, the story "came out" in 1697... acutally, it was a collection of stories "Mother Goose" that contained P & B that came out in 1697, apparently the P&B story actually dates earlier... probably when boots were more in fashion GoF

Bwahhaahaahaaa..... This is great news! SP Carter doesn't realize it yet, but he is making the first steps down the road to become an authentic re-enactor! Welcome to the dark side my friend! What you have actually started to do, is to no believe anything that we say here, but doing your own research! Now I am not going to comment on the sources, but I will say they are painting with a mighty big brush.... Now don't read this to mean that from 1701 boots were the most fashionable, because that is not what it is saying. I think we can all agree that by the end of the 18th C, boots are very fashionable... The stickey wicket is finding out when that trend started... acording to your source, the earliest 18th century refrence is 1730... In the 17th century, again, the refrences seem to relate to military soldiers and horsemen/cavalry. We have agreed to this as we can document GAoP era horsemen and military troops wearing boots. Now, I take some of it with a grain of salt, the hole bootlegging thing I think is a stretch. Does anyone have the Oxford English Dictionary that lists when words first came into use with their definitions? GoF

Whoaaa Pete... you must be having some night. I need to thank Foxe for saving my poor fingers, as you guys know i like to go on and on. But just to chime in a bit on Gages post. I'll spare you the quotin' But you have to admit that an artist that lived in the Early 18th century would be infinately more familar with how sailors and people in general looked. All he would have to do is look out the window to see what coats and shoes looked like. Again, nobody on the "authentic" side is trying to tell the other side what to wear..... Remember, those that are trying their best to actually look like 1717 pirate (or whatever time period) have certain constraints. No one can ever be 100% but its the desire to get there that we all share (on the authentic side). For us, boots are not acceptable because it hasn't been proven that, if worn at all, were worn in any significant numbers. To us, common isn't a bad word.... its a goal! GoF

Ok, ok, you got me.... I guess I should have been a little more specific. What I meant was Take a look at this. From Foxe's Pirate Pics Above we have a picture of Woodes Rogers and his crew at Guayacil 1712 conducting a raid. Common Pirate wisdom has it that Pirates were loaded for bear with all kinds of weapons everywhere they went. However, a contemporary picture of pirates actually doing pirate things and what is distinctly absent....??? Anyone.....? Anyone.....? Yes, thats right. Weapons. The only thing that we see that would be considered a weapon is.....???? A stick! Look on the right side, laying on the floor above the tricorn.... a stick! Now the pictures of Bonney and Teach are "set pieces" or almost portraiture... and they do show scabbards I admit... But here is another again from Foxes site. This is Antis' Crew from 1725 Johnson. We see muskets aplenty, but no axe's or swords or even Beer mugs hanging from baldrics.... And lastly, from Foxe's site Here are some Bucanneers circa 1700. Now, we know they were hunters, and this is what we see them wearing, hunting equiptment. Muskets and knives, but no swords. I am begining to think that, though pirates may have been able to own/keep their own weapons of choice, they might not have carried them around with them all the freakin time like many suppose. Foxe may be on to something with his stick and cudgel thing. We pretty much know that there was no training of sailors with swords or firearms until well after the GAoP. Gilkerson states that most shipboard fighting was wild melee with eveyone seeming to go for headshots, leading us to believe that they were really not that familar with sword use and thus, in non ship-to-ship combat situations, going with something more familar, like a club/belayin' pin/stick, would make sense. Just a thought. GoF

oh... no Captain Jim.... you could be accused of coming to the dark side here. I hate getting into the realm of speculation, but on ships other than pirate ships, weapons like swords were not in the possession of the sailor until it was needed. If it was needed, it would be in your hand, not in a scabbard. I can't recall seing anything but a smallsword in a scabbard for GAoP. Not saying it didn't exist, as we know that swords had scabbards.... This sounds like a job for Pirate Pete. If he could spare a couple hours from searching for boots, maybe he can find us a picture of a GAoP seamen wearing a sword in a scabbard. GoF