Gentleman of Fortune

I am assuming that there was a ships biscuit/hard tack kind of thing for our period. I think there is an original from the later 18th Century. Flour- water- salt, round cake with "holes" for breaking in it... Same for GAoP or? There is an interesting thread at the Frontier Folk forum http://frontierfolk.net/ipw-web/bulletin/b...opic.php?t=5974 and here is a biscuit maker that Mike Ameling made Any thoughts? GoF

Oh yes Pete.... it will happen to you! And you know, the sooner you give in and join the dark side, the sooner you will actually find the proof you are looking for! Aint that how it works??? Seriously though.... You are just too passionate about it not to come over! GoF

Well.... i would think that pink would be more "period" than black.... I used to do enviromental work for the air force. The black paint they put on stealth aircraft is very expensive. It doesn't have to be black... I am not sure what the most stealthy color is, but I WISH it would have been pink... Can you imagine a pink stealth bomber?? GoF

Ughhh... Well, if we were applying the accepted (by some) pirate mythology to our south seas modern pirates... Then they would be wearing Armani suits, Bruno Magli shoes or whatever else that would be considered high fashion. But remember too, that according to pirate mythology wisdom, these guys are not really in it for the money, they are creating an egalitarian society and thumbing thier noses at the establishment. And by wearing paramilitary clothing, and bandanas on their head they only make that too clear.... On a slightly different note.... I just wanted to echo Foxe's comments about the archaeological record. It is too limited to prove something where the wreck might be the only place it has been found. But it does support and give credence to what we have found in other places. We know that pirates wore shoes, and we have found them on a wreck. We know that pirates used dragoon style pistols, and we have found them on a wreck. We know they used grenadoes....etc etc. There will come a time when those on the "other side" of the debate will come to see the evidence and abandon their positions, due to the fact that if they care passionately about the subject and can only ingnore the evidence for so long. It may take a while, but hey, I can wait. GoF

SPC Sorry dude... sounds like a bout of tough luck.... Hope you turn the corner soon. GoF

uhhh.... I can not be the only one that wants to see pictures of you in the corset... am I??? GoF

WRW.... Man your good! GoF

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Red Maria... Yes, thats Manwaring's piece in the Mariners Mirror.... I am familar with it. That article in The Mariner's Mirror is about the only thing that even looks at sailor clothing (I don't recall if he even mentions pirates) for pre 1750. Manwaring is a big proponet of sailors wearing clothing from the Admiralty Slops contracts with which I agree. Thanks! GoF

Again, I think that this was a smallish (17.5 meter) cargo ship for use in local waterways for the transportation of goods... That is if I am reading the site right. Here is a picture of the type of ship... Not sure if you would need boots to go up in that rigging.... But again, its kind of a moot point as we are not debating the merits of boots in 1620 (or at least I wasn't). But to say that boots found in 1625 have any bearing to what was worn in 1725 is a stretch.... There maybe the ocassional nostalgic person wearing bell bottoms and platform shoes these days, or even a polyester leisure suit, but its certainly not a trend in 2006 fashionwear. Of course, who knows what will be popular in 2076... but if it becomes fashionable again, I would imagine it will be able to be found in the written/pictorial record.... GoFhttp://www.bataviawerf.nl/image/wijdschip.jpg

Hey... Daniel... do you want us to refer to you as Ooops or what now??? Anyhoooo Its kind of hard to say... we are not really finding boots being worn for "fashion sake" anywere in the written or pictorial record for GAoP. When we do find them, it seems to be somebody on a horse or getting of a horse or in some sort of relation to riding. That being said, the only ones we do have pictures of are the water colors that Foxe and Captain Bo has described... and they were French. But at least you got boots on a boat.... even though its 60-100 years earlier than we would like.... GoF

Daniel As always, thanks to folks that take their time out to retype these kinds of things, as it really helps to shape the collective idea of clothing and equipment for the GAoP, and its great to debate the merits and demerits of different informations. I think that I am getting something rather different from your lists of booty from the Providence and Willem. On the plus side, it seems to be fairly detailed and if they go through all the trouble to list rat chewd stockings, it makes me feel that they were fairly thorough.... But as for "fancy" clothing... I am not seeing it. I peeled off all the jackets clothes, pants, and breeches from the list, and here is what we get: 1 coat (worn) 1 doublet (worn) 2 pairs breeches (worn) 2 Jasto Corps (justaucorps) 4 stuffe coats for men 2 stuffe vests for boys 2 boys' little coats 2 children's coats 2 scarlet parragon (double camlet) coats 2 children's parragon coats 1 boy's coat 5 coats and breeches for men 2 men's cloaks From Sea chests 1 demity waist coat 1 old shirt 1 coat 1 pair breeches 1 pair breeches, waistcoat and jacket 1 waistcoat and jacket more 6 men's coats 1 stuffe pair breeches and doublet 3 pairs cloth breeches 1 old doublet 1 pair fustian breeches Now I am not seeing anything here that shouts (or even whispers) fancy or middle class clothing. It all appears to be the day to day kinds of clothing that we would expects denizens of the late 17th century to have. Except....... Justaucoprs are just coming into fashion at this date (1673), so I would consider it cutting edge fashion and could be fairly nice... But since it lacks description (while other things are labeled Paragon or Dimnity, which aren't high end fabrics) of the type of fabric, we could assume that it wasn't highly figured silk, velvet, or other expensive cloth. And... that would be 2 justaucorps on two ships to divide among how many pirates? Again, I am not suggesting that a sailor couldn't have a justaucorps, I just think that a sailor, if he had a justaucorps, would have a working mans version. GoF

PQ says i am not sure it was missed PQ, some of those same members have been touting the Admiralty Slops Contracts for months now.... and what is on them is short jackets, trousers, checked shirts etc..... But what I am curious about is where is Cordingly getting this information? What do we have that says sailors wore blue jackets? If greeneighs typed the footnotes correctly, Most of those sources are books that detail post GAoP (but maybe still 18th century) sailors. If any of them go into more than a brief look at pre 1720 sailors clothing, I would be surprised. The really sad things is that there is no academic work out there on 1680-1730 sailor clothing and equipment. GoF

WRW.... wow! That is pretty cool! I always thought that it would be cool to make a die for a spanish silver coin. You know, those ones that looked like they were made in a hurry that are all crazy shapes and sizes. I mean, how hard could it be to make this? I figure you could stamp it on pewter and it would look like silver.... Just a thought... GoF

Hmm... you could try googling the period monarch of your choice plus coin or replica... Some show up on UK e-bay from time to time http://tinyurl.com/lskmd GoF

Wow... this is becoming more interesting all the time! Pete... did you e-mail the Netherlands? I sent my inquiry to the Batavia museum in Australia.... Any way, a beurtschip, is like a barge or cargo boat. The Batavia museum seems to have one that was recovered in 1985. It seems like a fairly small river waterway kind of transport thing... here is a link to the english site. http://www.bataviawerf.nl/en/nsc.html Since the job of the beurtschip, which translates apparently as "market-boat" could be to ferry goods, there is no telling who was wearing them and in what capacity... But since we aren't debating boot use in the early 17th century, its kind of a moot point. I will have to put the Batavia museum on my list now as its only about 8 hours or so away. GoF

SPC Yes, we know that people wore boots before and after the GAoP, and we know that certain military members wore them, and people wore them as a tool for riding horses during the GAoP. What we haven't established, is that they were a tool for sailors during the GAoP, or that wearing boots for the sake of having boots on, was a fashion trend during the 1685-1725 time frame. We have established, that at least two women, unrealated to each other, began and continued careers as pirates during the GAoP. We can document, that those 2 women were pirates and were engaged in acts of piracy. So far, after as much scrutiny as probably anybody has ever put into determining if boots were in fashion or used by sailors during the GAoP, the best we have is a water color of 2 Frenchman with some natives at a swiming hole wearing boots (and other unusual clothing items).And, the two were not on a ship and we do not know for certain wether they were part of the ships crew, military members, or passers by to the scene. So as far as evidence, that is all we have. Thats it, nothing else, nada. Now, Pirate Pete has gone out of his way to post every pre and post GAoP picture he can find of sailors wearing boots and still, has not come up with anything. And as Foxe has stated, even if we were to find the "lost diary of Captain Black" dated 1710 that has a drawing of a pirate with boots on, it still would be one picture out of a 1000 that showd boots. Again, we have more fotos of Captains and Admirals wearing armor than we do of any sailor wearing boots. So comparing women disguising themselves as men and going to sea (in any capacity) to cavalry boots worn by pirates is an Apples and Oranges type of argument. I have always stood by the statement that if you ARE going to wear boots, at least wear boots that would have been feasible to have during the GAoP. I think Pete posted some by the Cavalry Shop, and I know that Sarah Juniper can make them.... The authentic debate over wearing what is common is a goal to have that lets a group of people accurately portray the given time frame. Again using the boots for an analogy, if you have 30 pirates and 20 are wearing boots (lets just pretend that they are correct boots for the moment) that skews the picture and misrepresents how 30 pirates would have looked. If 60% of all pirates wore boots, then we would definately see that carried through in pictorial record. On the other hand, if that group of 30 were trying to portay a group of bandits/highwaymen of the GAoP period, it would be more plausible as the highwaymen rode horses, and boots were tools to wear while riding. And so you have a better representation of what highwaymen looked like. Now, this only matters with authentic re-enacting. If you are at the fair, and just representing yourself, heck, wear what you want. Its a moot point really as very few things in the US call for authentic pirate re-enacting anyway. But for the few of us who are into such things, we really have to deal with these kind of guidelines so that the collective group can make a good impression. GOF

Its great to see everyone playing so nice in the pirate sand box! I want to encourage folks to keep posting stuff like greeneighs UTBF quote, and Pete's boot search photos. It helps everyone to stretch their brain muscles a bit and keeps this board interesting. But to the topic of the thread... I don't really mind the justification for certain clothing items, as long as the clothing itself is justifyable. Its kind of hard for me to swallow a black goth coat as a GAoP justaucorp..... if it was stolen or hand made by said pirate, it just wouldn't have existed. GoF

Great points Hawkyns! I agree that a lot of what is already being done seems to be more Highwayman then Pirate.... There is an interesting group... I think its Tall Paul's group called the Colchester Historical Enactment Society that does a wide range of 18th Century things... I think its a great idea as they cover Highwayman, Smuggler, and Pirate... I have posted the link before, but here it is again.... I'll tease you with a picture from their site though. Here is the web site for The C.H.E.S. GoF

Gosh.... how the heck did I miss this thread? It is interesting, and Greeneighs is certainly fueling the debate with this quote, and it provides some insight as to what a small fraction of pirates might have worn. I am curious as to how much the big hitter pirate "historians" even care about the small details of pirate life and things like as clothing. If they are like most of the academics that I have dealt with, they could care less about such things and dismiss our interests as mundane. I think cordingly points out the passage because it is unusual and adds a bit of color. I don't think its a conspiracy to sex up the book. That being said. Personally, I don't have a problem with folks wearing that stuff, and to be honest, bucket boot either.... if..... If the clothes and boots they wore actually looked like something that would have been worn during the GAoP. What really gets my knickers in a wad is when folks use passages like that to justify a really BAD justaucorps or a pair of boots that are so far removed from what anyone would have worn that it no longer becomes plausible. GoF

I haven't forgotton this... just haven't set down to do it yet. I'll try to get it up by friday. Thanks GoF

I have done them on other boards... with other things (like cigars) where its easier to deal with because of the realtive size.... But I would think that as long as it was something related to Piracy and that someone else would want it/could use it, I would think it would be ok. Buttons are going to Captn Bo, by the way. GoF

If you haven't yet, order "Boarder's Away Volume I -With Steel" Here is a link to Amazon: http://tinyurl.com/j497y he covers grenades, but, as with most things in this book, he lightly covers GAoP, and gives a lot of info on, 1750 to 1880s stuff. He shows a wooden bucket that grenadoes were stored in, has several pictures of grenadoes and their fuses, and gives historical accounts of their use in combat. Apparently they would have sailors aloft whose job it would be to rain down grenadoes onto the other ships' deck. Of course, you could fire them with a hand mortar.... More info here: http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/weapons.htm GOF

Yes, there are a lot of interesting questions that come out of this. The other shoes in the case definately look 17th Century, and, if the museum folks are doing their job, the boots should be too. So if they are real, and not reproductions to fill in a hole in the display, that is they type of boot that should be worn for GAoP and prior. If someone really wanted to wear boots like that (the cavalry/bucket boot) for GAoP, a really cool impression would be a Highway Men. You would be land based, so you don't need a horse, you could throw the entire Admiralty slops contract out the window, and you could wear the tall boots. It would be a neat impression... especially if you had a horse "Stand and deliver!" GoF

interesting.... is that what "trim" is called now? Can you make some reccomendations for sources and i'll add them to my website! Plus, Kass's patterns should be arriving soon and I have been itching to get started! GOF