jendobyns

Fox: don't think I have ever seen any pictures from the GAoP specifically but the queue has been around through many cultures since nearly the beginning of time, and worn in many many different styles...perhaps not specifically "British", "French", or "Spanish", but I am pretty sure they were not the only ones on the waters during GAoP, or aboard a pirate ship. I am pretty sure you have seen many of ancient Chinese wearing a queue. And there was one document I read some years ago that described a period when the British Navy in its early days had troubles with some sailors, as I recall they where trying to get more organized (with uniforms and such) and when the order was given for the men to cut their queues they "nearly had a revolt on their hands"....can't recall just when or where I had read that. But braids, pony tails and such have long been worn by men throughout history and cultures. If you read up on the history of wigs you will find a lot about the era's fascination with long hair, curls, and ribbons dating back as far as Queen Elizabeth herself.

Certainly, I have no problem with anyone portraying a Chinese pirate or Victorian sailor wearing a queue.

But in the original post you asked about a very specific hair style (short queue wrapped in black), and the correct way to obtain it. All of the advice (and good advice it is too) has been based on a later period interpretation. It may well be that there isn't a 'correct' GAoP way of doing it.

Have to say I agree with you there, we need to dig further to find something appropriate for GAoP. Sadly, it's a period that is about as easy to pin down as jello when it comes to some details. I have a meeting at a site tomorrow which was established in the 1680's as a tobacco port. It has a decent library, so I'll see if I can find anything useful while I'm there.

If there is any chance that you will be attending the Market Fair at Fort Frederick (April 29-May 1st , iirc) in Big Pool, MD, you might be able to talk to the wigmaker of Williamsburg (Betty Myers) about it. Hopefully someone will sort it out for you before then *g*

Aye M.A.d'Dogge, the sack would be fine enough, and the doubling of one's hair does lend fer a fuller look, however I intend t' keep mine at about 6inch and want t' pursue the tied look.

If anyone knows how th' profishonal hair dressers do it kindly let me know.

I suspect if you took the element of "hazing" out of it it wouldn't be so bad Kind of like some of the procedures we ladies go through in the salon

Ok, jendobyns' seems to have a good one about the pain the British soldiers went through...but how can we reproduce this with such extreme....

OK, I know there was a discussion on the Revlist before they changed servers in 1999. Can't figure out how to access the info on the previous server, though. But there was one post in the newer forum, which I will share with you here, regarding the making of a queue. It's later, so no guarantee of accuracy for GAoP.

Recently there was some discussion on the list about how British

soldiers wore their hair during the AWI. The following is from just after the

AWI and is from Memoirs of the Military Career of John Shipp, late a lieutenant

in His Majesty's 87th Regiment. Shipp entered the British Army as a ranker and

was one a relatively small number who eventually achieved commissioned rank.

His remembrances of his early days in the ranks are interesting even though

they are a few years after the period of the AWI.

In the following excerpt Shipp gives us a lot of detail about the

military queue and how the results were obtained.

"After this I went into town, to purchase a few requisites, such as a

powder-bag, puff, soap, candles, grease &c.; and , having procured what I stood

in need of, I returned to my barrack, where I underwent the operation of having

my hair tied for the first time, to the no small amusement of all the boys

assembled. A large piece of candle -grease was applied, first to the sides of

my head, then to the hind long hair; after this the same kind of operation was

performed with nasty stinking soap ___ sometimes the man who was dressing me

applying his knuckles, instead of the soap, to the delight of the surrounding

boys, who were bursting their sides with laughter, to see the tears roll down

my cheeks. When this operation was over, I had to go through one of a more

serious nature. A large pad, or bag filled with sand, was poked into the back

of my head, round which the hair was gathered tight, and the whole tied round

with a leather thong. When I was dressed for parade, I could scarcely get my

eyelids to perform their office; the skin of my eyes and face was drawn so

tight by the plug that was stuck in the back of my head, that I could not

possibly shut my eyes; and to this, an enormous high stock was poked under my

chin; so that , altogether, I felt as stiff as if I had swallowed a ramrod, or

a sergeant's halberd. Shortly after I was thus equipped, dinner was served;

but my poor jaws refused to act on the offensive, and when I made an attempt

to eat, my pad behind went up and down like a sledge-hammer."

Shipp's remarks about the high leather stock may not be appropriate to

the AWI since the year in which Shipp enlisted was 1795. There were certainly

changes in the uniform between the end of the AWI and 1795 as we all know. I

would be surprised, however, if the manner of forming the military queue had

really changed much at all by that time. The radical changes in how the

British Army were required to wear their hair was still some years away.

Check out plates 436 and 437 in Diderot, under "The Wigmaker"

Styles changed, and this is late, but this might be a starting point. The basic bag (I think they were called "bag wigs") looks fairly simple. Sort of a draw-string pouch, with a big bow stitched to the outside, it probably covers the wrinkly draw-string part.

Ah, here's a copy of plate 436 at the top of this article: http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/ahr/111.3/kwass.html

I wonder what the fabric pouch looked like? Thats definately a good option if ever i needed to hide my dreadlocks at an event.

I seem to remember this conversation going on in another forum (RevList, perhaps), so I'll try to track it down. I also seem to remember a discussion about pomade (which may serve instead of tar). Pomade is still available in some places (like styling salons) and these days comes in a variety of colors (not that a self respecting Pirate would be caught dead with purple hair )

From Deb Peterson, forwarded with her permission (we've had this discussion over on SavoryFare2). Love the woman, she comes up with so much treasure for us foodies! I modified the url so it fits. If it doesn't work, I'm sure you'll let me know

________________________________________________________

I was looking up something for another project and found references to glass <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">beer bottles. They look a LOT like the one listed at -

<br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">http://tinyurl.com/4ud64l6<br style="line-height: 1.22em; "><br style="line-height: 1.22em; "><br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">Ivor Noël Hume, All the Best Rubbish, tell sus that In January 1953 a huge <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">storm swept across England. a large amount of broken and intact glass wine <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">bottles of the early 18c were found strewn along the high water line. Some <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">were still corked and full. Analysis proved them to be full of beer. (See <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">image p. 77)<br style="line-height: 1.22em; "><br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">The bottles that were intact, showed no sign of sand abrasion, and still had <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">the thin brass wire securing the corks in place. It turns out a ship, the <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">Rising Sun, had foundered November 27, 1703 off the coast on the Goodwins, <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">(England) with no fewer than 2,500 bottles of beer in her holds, all packed <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">in wooden chests. Papers that turned up 200 years later, The [Thomas] <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">Bowrey Papers, are so complete that they include invoices not only for the <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">beer, the bottles, and the corks, and the wire to hold them down, but also <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">for the chest and the iron hinges and locks used to secure them. The Ship’s <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">inventories show that the chests were of two sizes, the larger holding up to <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">176 bottles, the smaller around 116 bottles. pp. 79,80.<br style="line-height: 1.22em; "><br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">I love stumbling across great information!<br style="line-height: 1.22em; "><br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">Deborah<br style="line-height: 1.22em; "><br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">Deborah Peterson's Pantry<br style="line-height: 1.22em; "><br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">www.deborahspantry.com

Ok, good to know. Is anyone collecting these things in a central location yet, or do we wait until closer to the day?

Would twisted wire (iron) forks and pewter tankards (used) be appropriate donations? I'm cleaning out my kit and have way to much stuff. I may find another home before then, but if not, I'd be happy to add to the cause.

Usually that's the kinds of items involved, a mix of new and used donated for auction to help support the cause, whatever cause that may be.

Bo

Do you remember anything else, like wether it was English or Dutch? I've done some digging in the Dutch Genre book but not a tavern so far like that (dentists, however, seem pretty fly-by-night).

Was the pic among those links posted earlier?

Someone out there gave me a link for an image of an Ordinary a few years back. It was a drawing of people under a canvas canopy that was in amongst the trees. I am NEED of that image.

I will take any images that you would like to share also.

Thanks

Would twisted wire (iron) forks and pewter tankards (used) be appropriate donations? I'm cleaning out my kit and have way to much stuff. I may find another home before then, but if not, I'd be happy to add to the cause.

Very fine, indeed, sir!

Not really GAOP but..... Here is my 1660 - 1680ish kit inspired from a 1666 French Grenadier's kit. Made by Will Nash at Liam's Custom CLothing.

Interesting. We seem to be fairly thin on information about people having individual cooking equipment, but then nobody has brought up the fact that people tended to live much more in groups than we do today. It was unusual for a person to be completely alone back then. We lived in households, either as members of a family or as retainers/servants. Or at sea or in the army, as part of a group (in the army, soldiers were part of a "mess", I'm not sure if there is a sea faring equivalent). When alone, people very frequently did not cook for themselves, but purchased food that had been prepared elsewhere (street vendors and taverns were available). So you really wouldn't need much more than a knife, spoon, cup and plate or bowl if you are a lowly sailor, probably made of wood, horn, ceramic,and I think we've already covered pewter and tin somewhere else on the forum. More impressive tools and utensils (like some of the items found on the Wydah) are likely to belong to the "better sort", at least originally. Especially something as spiffy as an engraved fork.

A small kettle, like the ones previously pictured, could serve a multitude of purposes, from making soup/coffee/porridge, to heating wash water. We are so used to having lots and lots of stuff it's hard to imagine living in a house with one pot, but there were many households which only had that much.

I know there are some sources for dining etiquette that are relevant to the period, but I have to stop procrastinating and make some buttonholes in a pair of breeches. Hopefully I'll remember to dig up those up when I'm finished.

I think I will be looking at these again, and my other period cookery books, again, with an eye to the fact that we will still be in Lent on Privateer Day. It could be a useful talking point.

Thanks for the link. I lost that one when my old computer died.

This difference in how the winds and currents flow was also a factor in the cycle of trade from place to place. It isn't unusual to find that a traveller has taken a ship from an English port to the colonies in North America (say, going to Boston or Philadelphia or somewhere in the Carolinas) by way of Jamaica or another Caribbean port, staying for some time while cargo was off loaded and new cargo taken on, before continuing on their way to their destination. Then the ship would sail over to England and start the circuit over again.

I have been seeing the same thing, and under the "new members" space a couple of odd names that don't fit the piracy pattern were showing up, including the sources of the "iressa" posts.

It seems to have started about the same time as the Russian intro people were trying to figure out. There were still one or two showing up after I ran anti-virus software as a precaution.

I am not seeing that, even in IE6 without any ad removal plug-ins. I'll give Stynky a shout on it, but it may be your computer, not the pub. May I suggest using Firefox if you're not already? They have some wonderful anti-ad and spam plug-ins available for free.

I will have to remember this when we eventually get over there.

'S missing it's lock mech but ar y'roit 'er do look odd.

You'd have to reprime between each shot and hope that there was no 'flash over' to the other chambers when you did fire

It's in the Pitt Rivers museum in Oxford, fantastic and odd wee place tucked behind and accessed via the Oxford University Museum of Natural History.

It's arranged by typology not chronology so all the firemaking devices are one cabinet all the opium/hash pipes and betel nut tools are in another, there's all the archers braces in one yddayaddayadda

The upper gallery is the weapons and armour section with some fantasticly freaky stuff like macrame armour with puffer fish helmets there's a small but facinating firearms section......worth a visit if you're in Oxford and can tear y'self away from the multitude of bookshops and pubs =o)

That just looks so odd!

How about a 1709 8shot pistol?

Are you talking about this one and it's fellow? http://www.northernantiques.co.uk/stone_jug_page1.htm

Very nice! It would be worth finding a potter who can make them, and not too heavy, let me know if you have any luck and if you don't have to mortgage your house to buy a half dozen.

found a 1700 Ale bottle on an auction site, actually two bottles, if anyone is interested, they can be viewed (at least presently) at the following site, they are roughly half way down the first page.

http://www.northerna...uk/pottery.html

They look a lot like a small Bellarmine, but without the face and with a handle, just over 8" tall with a liped top. So if I can believe the information on the site, then I might have at least a picture of my bottle, now to see if I can get one somewhere, or a half dozen (need a six pack, no?) ;-)

From "A Guide to Artifacts of Colonial America" by Ivor Noel Hume, which I cannot recommend enough.

Bottles, Pottery: (skipping the part about earlier 17C Bellarmines, which have their own part in this book, and costrels)

"The need for pottery bottles quickly declined as the production of glass bottles increased, and in the eighteenth century the only common pottery bottles were of brown stoneware, the English descendant of the Bellarmine. The body was gray and covered to a point below the midsection with an iron-oxide slip that turned either purple of a rich, brown stipple in the firing. The bodies resembled the late Bellarmines in shape, had a single strap handle, while the necks were generally cordoned below the lip. They came in various capacities from a pint to about five gallons, though the quart and gallon sizes are the most common survivors. No closely datable characteristics have so far been detected, and it is virtually impossible to tell the difference between those made in 1690 or 1770, though this would seem to be the span of their popularity." (Bold type my own for emphasis, considering the model posted from the DeWitt-Wallace gallery and it's date.)

Under "Bottles, glass liquor", there is also a group of charts of various glass bottles, showing shapes from 1652-1713, 1713-1732, and 1733-1740, and so on up to the 19C.

In the section on Bellarmines, he says of the body medallions that the earliest known marked is 1550. Also "By the second quarter of the seventeenth century, however, the masks were deteriorating and gradually became so stylized that the once-flowing beard had been reduced to a series of irregular strokes, while the features, too, became equally crude. At the same time the pleasing rotundity of the early bottles had been replaced by an elongated pear-shaped form with a disproportionately small base, heavy cordoning at the neck, and medallions that were no more than rosettes or meaningless pseudo-armorial devices. Earlier, they had carefully depicted the arms of monarchs, noblemen, patrons, towns and merchants. The latest dated example is marked 1767."

There you go, make of it what you will.

From the bits and pieces so far, and checking in Hume's work, it looks like an onion-shaped bottle is your best bet, although you could use other containers as well, like the bellarmine, depending on your scenario. Did you get your beer from the local tavern (servants would fetch a pitcher), bring it with you on the ship, or make it at home? Onion bottles would be sufficiently rounded and non-specific in use enough to have been used, the rounded shape having been stressed because of the equal pressure exerted on the bottle. It also sounds, from what I've been reading (and you probably have, too) that beer in period may not have been as bubbly as we're used to drinking, therefore less pressure on the bottle and cork.

Another term for yeast, is barm. Actually, it's the foamy stuff containing yeast that rises to the top in brewing. It was also used for making bread. I know I have a recipe/receipt around here somewhere that includes scooping a cup full of barm out of the barrel to use in baking. But it's late and I'm not looking for it now.

no kidding! just found it on the side of the road upside down. Medallion facing the road way, otherwise would not have noticed it. Looped around and grabbed it. Of course I was driving home from work, so I did have *ahem* a slight advantage in getting to it without much effort.

If I see a post from someone on another list saying they're missing it, do you wan to hear about it? It is a lovely hat, someone will be missing it (unless it's a prop and they just don't care) I can't imagine how it'd get lost on a highway, but then I never expected to get a bayonette hole in one of mine, either. Fortunately we ladies can cover such things with pretty trimmings

For those of you hungering for a repro-ear scoop (and I know I am talking to many thousands of people here) PoD found this one for me on eBay UK. At US $8.45 shipped, I don't think you can beat it. I've added one to my medical collection. This is also a personal item that a gentleman (and thus, further down the thieving food chain, a pirate) might have had as well. I'll post my thoughts on it once I receive it.

Thanks PoD!

Looks quite a lot like the one Scarlet Scarab shows in their catalogue. But at a much better pice!

I don't know if fire retardant canvas and sod cloths are important to you, so it might be worth checking out these folks if you can't afford Panther:

http://midwesttent.com/catalog/

I don't know anything about them other than a few folks on other forums seem to be happy with them.

Jen

Yep, I have to agree w/ Grymm here, the style I was talking abut is a later 18C style, the ones in the pics (which I had not seen until after my post) are rather different. One looks like there _might_ be a sort of strap across the top of the shoulder, but it's too difficult to tell to be sure.

The epaulette as we would know it today, I think, is introduced mid to late 18thC, earlier officery types wore, as a rank marking, a shoulder knot of silk ribbons or coloured/metallic cords often tipped with an aiglet

There are some but they are small on here http://warsoflouisxi...niform%20Plates

Thought I'd hit the motherload with these http://www.geheugenv...KONB06%22%20%29 but the Dutch Ensigns don't wear knots.....bugger!

It could be knotted or stitched round a button sewn onto the shoulder, might be worth finding a War of Spanish Succession group,

http://www.guerrades...at/00inici.html

This chap looks like he has a button near the neck and a single cord running down to the knot which could be attached to another button or sewn to the shoulder/arm seam.

Above image from this site http://www.peter.pet....ru/index_e.htm

Their links page might be worth checking out

You only plan on wearing these for cold weather, right?

major booty of awesome cashmere winter coats....for mega cheap!!!

wonder if anyone has done/ attempted this before...

i gather that they will be quite a bit bulkier than regular stays.... but i see tremendous advantage as far as sewing trim around...as in, i plan on just whip/ button hole stitching around the tabs for finishing.... and tis pure glory to sew thru wool/ cashmere... using silk thread of course!!!

TIA for all comments/suggestions/advice