jendobyns

This should be fun, Pirates, a mermaid, and Dr. Who in the next episode this Saturday, May 7th, 2011 Looks like the Black Spot even shows up as part of the plot.

Jen

That's the one. Thanks. Wonder what I can compare it to "historically". This will be more of a Hollywood style fantasy pirate get up but I'm just curious if there is a accurate time period style coat it's based on

Have you had a chance to look in Waugh's "Cut of Men's Clothes"? I can't get to my copy right now, but I seem to remember looking at that coat in the movie, then going to the book to draft a version of it for my son's Halloween costume. We went from Long John SIlver to Captain Hook to Jack Sparrow in that coat (yeah, I know, very wrong especially for Jack, but people 'round here aren't very picky about pirates )

Jen

So I guess chicken breeders shipping chicks handle all that when you order? Too bad you can't have rent-a-chicken like you can with horses from local stables. Where are you looking to transport these birds anyway?

bugger one does need special papers and permission to bring them into another state...hmmm horses are easier...

I went down on Friday, got there around noon. (6 hour drive) This is the first time I have gone, first time for a 'market fair' also, so I am not sure what I expected. There were a lot of tents of vendors, but the prices seemed high to me. One place had a blanket piled up with gourds for making canteens or water bottles, they were asking $20.00 for one gourd! that seemed way out of line for something I can grow in my yard. There were lots of people running around in period apparel, but it almost seemed like the vendors outnumbered the visitors. Rain had hit them hard on Thursday, there was lots of hay, woodchips and such to keep the mud away. Friday also was very overcast with periods of light rain, so maybe that kept the crowds away, or maybe that is how these things are attended, I can't say. I hope for the vendors that they had better weather and crowds on Saturday & Sunday, because when I was there I didn't see a lot of money changing hands. Overall it was nice to smell the woodsmoke and see people enjoying their hobby/business/lifestyle? Anyone else go?

Littleneck, I'm glad you made it down there in spite of the long drive. Prices did seem to be all over the map, with over priced gourds and candles on one hand, and quite reasonably priced items on another. Just depends on what you were looking for and where--one vendor could charge twice as much as the guy down the road, literally. Some vendors were swamped on Friday, others not until Saturday when the weather improved. Some nearly sold out of things by Saturday afternoon, too. Just depends on what they are selling and what is important to buy as soon as you get there, like shoes.

Hope you make it back next year, with more time to spend.

Jen

We set up camp Wednesday night, watching the weather forecast for thunderstorms and tornado watches. Campers and sutlers alike were relocated due to low areas being flooded by earlier rainfall. Early Thursday weather was awful, but not quite as bad as BPI, Friday grey, some showers and cold wind. But it didn't keep shoppers away. Saturday seemed quite busy and I know of at least one sutler (vendor) who was nearly cleaned out by the end of the day. Amazing! There is such an ebb and flow to the people going through various vendors it can seem deserted one moment, and full of chattering people the next. Rob and I did our part to relieve vendors of their wares, nearly being unable to take it all home Sunday was so wet that at least one sutler reported flooding (and I remember his neighbor having the same problem earlier in the week). And packing up and returning home with wet canvas was not so much fun. I think this has been one of the wettest Ft. Fred Market Fairs in my memory of the event. And I have made due note of the location of the nearest hotel

Dutch, we saw you and Grace with her amazing pack basket. Did she manage to fill it? We also ran into a good number of people from the Vigilant Crew.

Has anyone ever come across any sort of information, whether written or some sort of picture, showing cages/containers for chickens during the GAoP time frame? Unfortunately we cannot have the real things running free around camp.... thanks for any help.

OK, earlier pics and later pics I can find, from different countries. While not an exact example of the GAoP, the basic concept seems to be consistent across location and time. Big, roomy, open work baskets with a lid or door of some kind.

http://www.allartclassic.com/pictures_zoom.php?p_number=150&p=&number=AEP006

Ah, not the packed horse image from CW, but another: http://www.history.org/Foundation/journal/Winter09/images/janice.jpg

There is at least one other image I've seen which seems to be somewhere between the two, but I can't look any further right now.

While I can't find an image of her work, but there is one basket weaver who has made these. It might be worth getting in touch to see what research she has done. Let me know if you're interested and I can see if I can find her contact info.

Jen

"Logwood trees" have made their appearance a couple of times in pirate books I have been reading (especially William Dampier), but without any explanation of what they actually were. So I got curious and looked them up.

I then found a rather interesting article about them. Although it is probably more interesting to a botanist, there is some discussion about the dye history and the relationship between logwood cutting and piracy that may interest people here.

I can't comment on the accuracy of the historical details, but the botany on this site is generally accurate.

Logwood and Brazilwood

Anyway, I don't know whether this is of interest to any of you, but combining piracy and botany makes me happy.

Thanks for the link! I'm not sure it's spot on for the dyeing information (some broad generalities, and the comment about the Redcoat coats is in error, the source for red depended on whose coat's we're talking about, officers or enlisted) But useful and interesting anyway.

Has anyone ever come across any sort of information, whether written or some sort of picture, showing cages/containers for chickens during the GAoP time frame? Unfortunately we cannot have the real things running free around camp.... thanks for any help.

I'll see if I can find some pictures of the chicken "baskets" that were located during a previous discussion on another list. And while it's a later period portrayal, there was a great pic of a woman with a horse loaded for market with one or two of these packed onto it in a Colonial Williamsburg calendar pic, at least a decade ago. It's a basket type that shows up in various forms in earlier art work as well.

Jen

Happy Birthday, Lily!

World War I, and a piece of music where someone is wondering about the person's grave that they're standing by who'd fallen in that war.

Ok, there is no 'right' answer to this question, and I'm not doing a survey, it's just idle curiosity, as I said.

What does the year 1916 signify to you?

I'll explain why I'm asking later.

Another potential starting point is to research gandy dancing.

I looked at YouTube for gandy dancer / gandy dancing and didn't have good results, but this might be one of those songs. There was a point in time (early 1980's) where gandy dancer songs and sea shanties were being performed by the same performers (sort of a cross-over performance of working songs). Those songs dated from the days when the railroads were being built and the working songs of the black railroad workers (the gandy dancrs) performed similar timing tasks as sea shanties. There was an amazing piece which timed the hammer blows into the spikes among multiple workers on the rr, but that's for another forum *g*

Jen Dobyns

Ok,

So I was trolling through youtube one night as Iam apt to do when I cant sleep and I stumbled across this shantie!

Its Called Blackbird get up. I love this song and it sounds like it has its roots in black working songs.

If any one knows any thing about this song can you please enlighten me!

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=uKvW6SCieUE

Hmm, mine are full, and there has been reference to the "duck butt" among people who make & wear these, but it sounds like maybe yours are a bit too large? Or is the fabric stiff? Was the fabric pre-washed before they were made? Maybe you can wash them to soften and they'll behave better?

You may have room to take them in a bit if you've already tried softening them, the trick is making sure there is enough space to sit down without splitting them out either in the seat or knees.

Good luck! It'll be a great sight to see!

Thanks, the hole where your foot goes through is tight. what im looking for is a way to control the legs and crotch wich balloons out.. The waist uses a drawstring and the foot hole uses a button or drawstring.

I make mine without meat at all. (When I make it.) The spices and gravy are the keys to the taste. (A mushroom gravy, in my case.)

Mission, you tease. You need to be more specific than that! C'mon, do tell, what do you use besides spices and mushroom gravy? I want to try sneaking this one past my guys (they're meat and potato types).

Oh, one of my cookbooks calls a meatless version of Shepherd's Pie a Shepherdess Pie.

Well put. And I'd actually put the knife _before_ the shoes.

I play William Brand, a man who spent part of his childhood and teens in the Middle East. Why do I use the Middle East as part of Brand's background? Because it is part of mine, and it's easy to speak about what I know. Have I considered having some clothing from Egypt, The Sinai or Palestine? Yes, but it would be impractical for Brand to wear something that fit him when he was 17, now that he is twice that age. Also, it would be quite old by now, and if he cherished it at all, he would probably have it bundled in the bottom of a sea chest. Also, he would have been moved to buy new things over the course of his time, just like I have. The only things I still possess from my youth and my time in the Middle East are small objects of importance, not clothing. Brand has two knives that were gifted to him while he lived there, and these he has kept all his days. He also has a prayer rug that was gifted to him when he was young, but no clothing to speak of. Even a short stint in Spain did not affect his taste in clothing. Having been born of English environs, and having left the Middle East to live in the Western World, he now dresses as similarly as anyone else one might find in the Caribbean and the Colonies. If he returned to the Middle East he is just as likely as I am to re-adopt the local dress, but like me, Brand buys new clothing as old clothing gets worn. He buys it where he lives or where he is.

I could go on about my personal views on interpretation, but I try to remain pragmatic, and when I see a pirate dressed entirely in red and black leather all that I can think is "Where would a sailor buy that 'off the rack'in 1714?", and even more, "How is it that a GAoP sailor is wearing a tunic and bag of 1611, boots and a baldric from 1660, a hat from 1710, a pistol from 1750 and a cutlass of 1812? Is he traveling in time?" These thoughts are not meant to judge the individual, nor his/her taste, but as a student and fan of the historic, I'm distracted by a single costume that covers 200+ years in one go.

Mind you, I love a good distraction if distraction is the point. I've seen some fanciful interpretations that are fun, well executed and crafted to a fine degree of individuality. However, this thread is about discussing the authentic and my favorite 'minimum garb standards' are Patrick Hand and Cran Ohlandt. Their kit is so 'common' that I think of them as the consummate pirates. They're so fantastically simple as to stand out. If less is more, they are the most. Patrick knows how to make kit that he can carry and kit that carries him without overwhelming 'Patrick'. His kit is simple enough that we still see him. The same goes for Cran. We see the person. We see the man as he his. Sailor. Laborer. Pirate. A working man of the GAoP. Perfect.

Brand is a bit more...Brand. He's seen the world. He's been a Captain a time or two. He's rubbed elbows with men of great power and men of very lowly station. He's a mixed bag. I try to play him as he is. A man who has seen much, lived well, known a modest affluence, had and lost, and is as adaptable in his environment as a man can and should be. I feel that a good historic kit allows you to be a part of thing without trying to be all of a thing.

I often see 'crews' where every pirate looks the same. Every single one of them looks like an affluent, outspoken, dramatic copy of the other, but few if any of them look like sailors. I can't tell the ship's doctor from the cooper or the able seaman. I don't see a crew when I look at some 'crews', so much as a see a cast for a play. Whereas when I look at my own crew (not to brag, but it will sound like bragging anyway) I see very common sailors, tradesman, and some men of position and learning. There is a variety that can only endure if some hobbyists are willing to play the most important part of the crew...sailors. I could play a Quartermaster til the cows come home, but I'd look pretty lonely doing it without 'crew'. And not just any crew, but a crew that looks the part.

Minimum Garb actually makes the hobby what it is. We need minimalist able seaman in the hobby just as much as a ship needed them. We need more of them. We need plain, honest to goodness working sailors.

And since I'm in danger of drifting from the point...

Before I get any Hollywood Pyrates in a "huff"...

I want to explain this thread.

This thread is about what are the minimum acceptable garb standards to participate at an Authentic event.

It has nothing to do with what someone wears to a Renaissance Faire, nor is it telling anyone how he or she has to play Pyrate.

It is a discussion about Authentic events only.

My biggest Minimum Garb Standard gripe? The sailor's knife. I know it isn't garb, but if you don't have a knife, how can you not feel naked? If I had a dime for every 'pirate' or 'sailor' that didn't have that most basic tool of the trade, I'd have enough money to buy them one. If you don't have a sailor's knife, get a knife! It's THE tool. Pistols are well and good, but every sailor needs a knife. It's a weapon, eating utensil, tool, and a resume. Nothing says more about a sailor then a well kept and well used knife. Besides, why wouldn't you want a knife? Knives are cool. Do you want to be the only able Seaman without a knife? If you aren't sure, then I'll tell you. No. You don't want to be that sailor. Get a knife! Once you have a shirt, slops and shoes, get a knife.

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread.

Where do you get your goat meat? I have to agree, it's very good stuff!

Here be my take on Shepard's Pie:

Brown 1 pound of ground Goat (yes, of the Billy variety) with 1/2 cup white onion. Use the drippings from the meat, along with beef stock and flour to make some quick gravy. Dice about 5-6 carrots into rough 1 to 1 1/4 inch pieces, and add to the meat. Pour all of it into a pie dish and stir in the gravy. Coat the top with mashed potatoes, and bake for about 25-35 minutes at 350 degrees.

I like using goat, on account that it's delicious, and not often used.

Beautiful work!

According to the current published rules of the SCA, a person only has to make an attempt at pre-17C garb to attend events. Having some experience on and off since the 1970's with the organization, I can tell you this is a very fuzzy line and can be achieved by very little. However, within the group there are sub-groups and individuals who are as devoted to accurate detail for their period as anyone here. With thousands of people world wide in their membership, it really isn't fair to lump any of them into one category or another, any more than it would be to do so with anyone in the Pub. Just as one group of Pirates might tend toward theatrical, Steam Punk or Historical, the same could be said for any group in the SCA (and no, I wouldn't be surprised to find Steam Punk Medieval!) It just depends on who you encounter in your travels.

We're all just part of the wide, weird and varied world of the living history playground.

Jen Dobyns

*sigh* ummmm downsizing isn't an option. atleast not that the better half is aware of. now i'll admit the air conditioner for the tent is a bit much, but the air mattress sure is nice. Its not a problem packing other folks stuff- heavens knows we all couldnt have made a couple of events with out the trailer, but how do people have theirs packed? I know gunner put a false bottom in his trailer and stores the tent poles there.

*edit- BTW its going to be fun watching everyone downsize once luna is floating. one seabag and one small chest or smaller bag. of course the living history is already in place.

Did you get a chance to look inside the Vigilant's trailer? They just re-fitted it for the gear they carry.

Vigilant Crew: We provide EXTREME living history

what's on the agenda for next year? Real targets?

*snort* Wasn't that covered last year?

One thing's for sure, it's not a dull event! Yeeehhaaa!

yup. if you were there and don't begin your story with "no s$^%, there we were...", you we're obviously safe and warm in a pub or hotel. The encampment in the storm was THE party of the year!

*now I'll admit, many camps have been through storm, but how many have had the fury of the Chesapeake Bay breaking whitecaps between the tents where land was dry an hour earlier.

It was tempting to start the story that way when I reported back to the Loyalists, but I didn't *G* I think in decades of reenacting, that was the best/worst I've ever been in, and it was awesome!

What a rush! I just can't describe how cool it was being out there. The Vigilant Crew was just amazing!

No idea of origin of the top pic, other than that it looks rather late, possibly Victorian in style.

The second pic is most likely second half 18C, probably continental if the sabot being used as a water reservoir for the wheel is anything to go by afaik. I've seen it somewhere else on the web, but can't remember where.

Good look finding the source.

And can anyone help me identify and date this image??? Ever seen it before? This is the one that fits my current clothing the best:

Thanks again...

Bo

You did ask...

It's a good rule of thumb, three primary sources. Of course, the more sources you have, and of different types, to back something up, the better If you only have one source, at least it makes for a good anecdote if you're telling stories in persona (remind me to tell you the story of a man's remarkable behavior at a ball sometime).

The links for online resources are great! Gotta love ECCO!

Based on discussions with a friend who is actually pursuing an advanced degree in history, the rule of thumb for historians to prove a behavior/object/style seems to be to have three independent sources of that behavior/object/style.

This seems reasonable for a period like ours which I am finding has a great deal of printed source material. Such material is becoming ever more available to people like us. When I first started looking for period medical sources in 2007, it was a tough slog to find source material beyond what was currently in print, but that has changed in these few short years. I now have sources available via

1. Digital archives on the internet,
2. Relevant databases available via college libraries including ESTC (English Short Title Catalog) and ECCO (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) and,
3. The recent re-publishing of all sorts of books via Gale-ECCO print editions.

Three independent sources seems pretty reasonable to me, and even necessary in many ways. Why? Having waded through dozens of 18th c. texts, I can state that

• The spelling in these manuscripts is atrocious and the print frequently very hard to read, leading to all sorts of possibility for misinterpretation.
• Human error in prose description was as likely then as it is now. (How many times have you grasped for the right word and used the wrong one instead - even in print?)
• A single or even second instance of something could be an aberration. While this may prove something happened, it does not mean it happened more than the one or two times it was recorded.

Well, that's my take on it, at least as regards things that have been recorded in three different places. (Those not recorded in three different places are beyond our reach.) If we're going to say something was 'commonly done' or 'commonly used', I think the three independent source rule is fair.

What do you think?

Just to clarify once again, as I did in one of the above posts, I know that the bricks for sale in the gift shops today are not what would have been shipped. However, due to the nature of shipping/smuggling, making a profit, and making use of all the room to best utilize cargo space, and due to the eyewitness accounts at the Boston Tea Party (going out next morning to break up the floating tea with oars), I still have some doubts that all the tea was so loose as to not be bound into bales just from being packed tight in the trunks and chests. Also, given the smuggler information I came across, and knowing a bit bout transporting leafy substances in hidden spaces, some form of tightly wrapped packages were necessary to transport quantities enough to make it profitable. Not the pressed bricks we see today certainly, but it would not have been good business to ship twenty pounds of tea leaves in a trunk that could be stuffed with eighty pounds. I found another reference to the tea at Boston reffered to as "bullets" due to its shape, but I lost it! if I weren't so busy finishing up schoolwork I'd go looking for it again. Anyone else hear of this term applied to tea?

Bo

There is a picture that was posted, somewhere, of what is (presumed to be?) a man pressing (presumed) tea into a crate (which may or may not be lined with fabric). I do not recall the date, or where I have seen it. This one, very insubstantial, source, might be what you have in mind. Try asking someone on the SavoryFare2 list, they probably know.

Really, you should check out those links and the archives within those links that Grymm and Sterling posted. There have been discussion on this already, the most recent one being over the possibility of pu-erh tea, iirc.

As for the lost documentation, it wouldn't hurt to ask the folks on those other lists if they have seen something like that and could they direct you to it, please? Chances are someone knows exactly what you're talking about.

Happy hunting,

Jen Dobyns

I'll just weigh in to reinforce both what Grymm and Capt. Sterling are saying here. A few years ago Deb Peterson (see Sterling's link) held a symposium on period coffee, tea and chocolate, and the up-shot was, based on serious research by people passionate about the subject, that tea bricks don't show up until way too late for any of us here to be using them. When I can get to it, I'll look at my symposium notes and see if I can't find the name of the presenters and bibliography.

We've beaten that horse (and others) way beyond resurrection in the later 18C forums, trying to find evidence for tea bricks. If we haven't found it yet, and we've had years to cover it, and many, many people asking the same questions we get here, it probably didn't exist yet in the western world, except perhaps as a curiosity. The only way that is likely to be overturned is to find first person evidence in a diary, inventory or picture, which documents not only it's existence, but consumption.

Oh, and I'd like to point out that both the 18C Woman and SavoryFare2 lists do not have complete archives from their beginning, as both have undergone changes over time and some of the older discussions have been lost (SavoryFare2 was once SavoryFare). If anyone has a clue as to how to access that information, please share!

Jen Dobyns