jendobyns

I'm guessing that Jen means this example of After drinkys shenanigans when she mentions bad behavior=o) complete with drunken fop goping maid a row kicking off 'tween the chap on the stoop and the one in the carriage and some hot wiggy on wiggy action, ah the joys of alcohol

Yep, that was one of 'em! *L*

Brings to mind one of my favorite movie lines "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way"

Now here's an interesting image. You can see clearly that what this young lady is wearing is not stays in the sense we know them. Jumps? Still under her very fine gown, but definitely not fully boned, or even as far as I can tell, partially boned, stays.

There are several images there Jen, which are you referring to?

Grumblegrumblegrumble, It was there when I posted! This is, I think, the title:

Jan Claasz. of de gewaande dienstmaagd: de ontdekking van Jan Claasz.

It is the one where the lady is sitting down with at least 3 women in attendance around her, a knocked over bucket and mop in front of her, a man on the right, and another man dressed as a woman to the farthest right. She's wearing a gown which is undone at the front, with a blue under-thingie unlaced partially. The way it flops open at the very top, there can't be anything stiff inside it.

Jen,

Seems to me that artistic license is used here. That said I also think there ARE many taboos here that I can't explaine. As to the lady on the platform she is clearly an "above average" woman, she has a double chin. It does seem to be some celebration. I don't think the entire painting is shown here I can think of few paintings where characters are cut as they are here. ...then again perhaps not.

and it is a wedding.

"Troost Cornelis The Wedding Of Kloris And Roosje"

I suggest that the taboos explored are a commentary of the times or perhaps something the artist was known for. It has been YEARS since I took art history and I have forgotten most of what I was to have learned. An artist would sell his work to the rich so the artist would have to appeal to the rich. To understand the painting one must explore the artist, the social structure, political happenings of the day as well as the style of the artist.

A wedding explains all the garlands, thanks! I totally understand the perspective of the artist license, painting for the patrons, etc. One reason we have to take it with a grain of salt. How much of what we see is painting to a particular patron's perspective? Does the patron want period political satire, paintings of famous dramatic scenes, humor, family portraits, erotica? Is the portrait taken of someone who is caught up in the trend to wear fancy dress? Such a tangle! Analyzing not only what the artist was trying to get across, but also their own personal experience, biases, and taking into consideration our own. We have to be part artist, psychologist, historian, anthropologist, archaeologist, etc. More than any one source we rely on ever had to be when the material we're using was created. Sigh. Maybe creating a time machine would be easier *G*

Now here's an interesting image. You can see clearly that what this young lady is wearing is not stays in the sense we know them. Jumps? Still under her very fine gown, but definitely not fully boned, or even as far as I can tell, partially boned, stays. All the info on this that I found is in Dutch, so I have no idea what the title of the painting may be.

It came from this link from the link Grymm supplied: Cornelis Troost at the Rijksmuseum, AmsterdamGreat scans of Rijksmuseum paintings, from the 'Memory of the Netherlands' project

Lots of interesting art there, with people behaving badly *g*<br clear="all">

'S by Cornelius Troost who was Dutch, an ex actor and set designer, circa 1729. Yes it does tell a story but all paintings contain an element of artistic license. Troost was a contempererererey of Hogarth painting what he saw but arranging it to tell stories, so there's every chance that these characters are based on real folk, the larger lady eshewing stays/jumps, the widow with widows peak in the background.

This next one, as well as making me laugh alot (Mooning man with face drawn on his bum above the somber dressed religeous types flanked by 'blacked-up' trumpeters) Talso shows a lady with the red neckerchief who looks unencumbered by stays.

Now I'm just guessing here but like I mentioned on 18cWoman " Here in the 21stC we like everything to fit into neat boxes and in truth it never really does, terminology/habits vary from person to person as do details, we need to be a little

more....erm, fluid with our thinking and terminology. Think many manyoverlapping venn diagrams rather than neatly stacked boxes"

Some women prob'ly went without, damn sight easier to work in but if you get to mince around the house doing bugger all then lace'em up tight. There's another pic that I have somewhere that shows the inside of a busy tailors workshop with a woman carrying beer jugs for the tailors wearing just skirts shift and stays.

I fear more than a few of these conventions you mention are what I would call re-enactorisms, us 21stC types retro fitting our morals and ideals on the past.

But hey as long as we talk about it rather than just accept them as truths things and knowledge will get pushed forward =o)

Thanks for that Grymm. I am pretty much of the same mind here, this whole "everyone did X, if they didn't then they're Y" philosophy is pretty narrow. I haven't seen a lot of jumps outside of the "cheesecake" type of art, so seeing just stays or jumps on a working girl who isn't being portrayed as a prostitute would be awesome! And I seem to be seeing a commonality with the women depicted in jacket/bedgown/short gown without stays. They are all of a more mature nature from what I've seen _so far_. Complete with the heavy bust and large belly that some of us develop after child bearing and age. But while they could easily be over weight in our sense of things, even into their fifties, they could also be pregnant. Even if they aren't, those clothes will make them appear so when worn w/o stays. And, after multiple pregnancies and weight gains, wearing stays is just torture for some women on some days. So I can imagine a woman going out as this one appears to have done, completely respectably covered in every other way, sans stays.

We do tend to bring a lot of 21st C. baggage along with us, and we need to be aware of that, and creeping reenactorisms. It's what an old anthropology prof of mine called ethnocentricity, viewing a situation from one's own version of reality, not from the perspective of the culture/ethnic group being observed.

So for now, while jumps appear to still be somewhat problematic, is it safe, do you think, to say that the less formal outer garments like bedgowns, could be worn without stays in public on occasion? Without the woman in question being considered "loose", or a procuress? Or do you think that perhaps these images are artistically suspect enough to avoid it?

I know it's a bit late 1740's not GAoP but at least one lady here isn't wearing stays

Oh, goodness! I just now got around to seeing this painting. The lady on the platform just breaks so many taboos! No stays, she looks quite pregnant (although there could be other interpretations for her shape and size) and she's apparently been playing a fiddle, which from my understanding of appropriate (read: lady-like) behavior for a woman, is not acceptable. The couple dancing in front is also interesting. The line of her bodice is definitely not what you'd usually see with stays, and the man's foot is under her petticoats as they are dancing. What's that supposed to be about?

This is a May Day celebration, perhaps?

The more I look at this, the more interesting little details I see. Hmmmm.

hoping to be there !!

This is awesome.., and worth every schilling .

So when is the next one? My lads may be interested.

On this side of the pond "Dutch Oven" is a euphemism for when ones breaks wind in bed then pulls the duvet over the wife's head. Oddly, I've never met a girl who found it funny, they keep calling me puerile!

Hehe, that's good. I'll have to remember this next time someone gives me grief for calling it a bake kettle, that being the term lots of folks over here have started using, after a bunch of digging around for references to what the thing is actually called in period. But change comes slowly. Maybe letting them in on the joke will speed things along

Ah, that's quite useful. Thanks. What was used to spread the saffron on the bird in the kitchens at HCP? I'd use a pastry brush at home, but it looks like a little wad of something I can't identify in the pic. And using the pastry trick is a good one, especially for pot lids that don't seal well. Will file that away for future use *G*

We bodged a 'brush' from a knackered old bit of linen cloth rescued from the scraps we use to make charcloth.

Thanks! It was really hard to see that it was linen from the pic, almost looked like thick cheesecloth. Since I have more linen scraps than I'm likely ever to use for charcloth, I'll keep that in mind *g*

I just priced saffron yesterday, it comes out to around $350 an ounce. Maybe I should lock up the bottle from the Chinese market, it was cheaper there *g*

Eeeep this is putting me head above the parapet but her are some pics of the very first time me and me chums tried it waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the early 16thC ;o)

http://www.flickr.co...57605997771339/ It's become a regular at home using a steamer rack and a wok with a lid.

The bronze cauldrens we use at work are fantastic for cooking in, much 'faster' than iron and they don't sadden your food, give it that slight grey tinge that cast iron does, BUT they do need proper cleaning with mucho elbow grease and scourers.

Ah, that's quite useful. Thanks. What was used to spread the saffron on the bird in the kitchens at HCP? I'd use a pastry brush at home, but it looks like a little wad of something I can't identify in the pic. And using the pastry trick is a good one, especially for pot lids that don't seal well. Will file that away for future use *G*

I learned the hard way about iron pots saddening the color of food. Made the mistake of making my standard lentil soup in one, the camp name for it that weekend was crank case stew, as it looked like something you'd drain out of your car. Smelled and tasted wonderful, looked absolutely awful! I had used a (different) iron pot to dye with, so I should have been aware of the saddening issue, but it didn't translate to the part of my brain that cooks food. Sigh. Live and learn, eh?

So I take it that cooking this recipe in an iron pot, even just steaming it that way, would have some impact on the color? How interesting. Gotta start saving for bronze!

Ingredients:

a chicken

saffron

1 large handful of parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme, altogether now.......Are you going...ehem (or other aromatic green herbs).

Bottle of reasonable white wine

cauldron with lid and sticks or skewers

Sit your pot on it's legs

pour wine into pot add half the herbs

arrange your sticks/skewers in a grid making a platform above the wine

Put the other half of the herbs inside the chicken.

Paint the outside of the chicken with saffron water - saffron strands dried and ground made up to solution with warm water

Put the chicken on the sticks over the wine - without it touching the wine

Lid the pot and seal it with a little dough if you can or put a weight on the lid

Put y'pot on the fire and steam the chicken for the same time it would take to roast.

The herby wine becomes a good base for a sauce.

That looks gorgeous! I'll have to give this a go at the next event. Do you have pics of yours to share?

Stupid f'*&%$£ board software won't let me post the other links, a pox on its bits and bytes

Go to youtube look for The Imagined Village 'Ouses 'ouses 'ouses

the other was s'posed to be a joke it was The Wurzels Blackbird song also on youtube and the Yetties was that standard of English folk songs Liliburlero.

They all worked for me. The Blackbird song was what was stuck in my brain when I left for class. And what I woke up with in my head this morning!

So, does anyone know what part of the UK Stan Hugill came from? Here's a video clip where's he's doing a presentation at Workum:

Mistress D.

http://sounds.bl.uk/...ts-and-dialects Is one but there's one that I should have in me favs that has wax cylinder recordings from the early20thC as well as tapes and more recent digital, 's just finding the bloody thing.

What a wonderful resource! I noticed there isn't anything for Guernsey and Jersey. Aren't they part of the UK? Or do they share a dialect with somewhere else?

This may help

This lot have been going even longer than the Wurzels The Yetties from Yetminster though they don't play up to the yokel image as much

See if you can find Kathryn Tickell & Ensemble Mystical just for the Corn Fiddler/Poem done in a NE English accent, puts the hair up on y'neck or listen to

for a bit of a Sussex accent.

Now you've gone and done it! I've got the Wurzels stuck in my head. And it's time for belly dance class! This should be interesting.

The more I listen to these clips, the more I'm sure there are pockets of these dialects or their descendants in the Baltimore area. Maybe it's worth checking to see if anyone 'round here has done research on immigration/local settlement patterns and regional dialects for areas around Balimer (I think the i and e are kind of swallowed when you say that).

Mistress D.

This may help

This lot have been going even longer than the Wurzels The Yetties from Yetminster though they don't play up to the yokel image as much

See if you can find Kathryn Tickell & Ensemble Mystical just for the Corn Fiddler/Poem done in a NE English accent, puts the hair up on y'neck or listen to

for a bit of a Sussex accent.

Holy Cow! That Sussex accent sounds so much like someone I know who I'm pretty sure is from around Baltimore. Another Chesapeake Bay area fossil, perhaps? Worth finding out if it can be useful, like the Tangier Island accent.

Mistress D

who really liked The Story of English.

More on dance possibilities:

For pirates interested in dance in Beaufort, this wonderful woman (check out the website for her book about sailing the Chesapeake) is offering an English Country Dance class on the first Saturday (at least, that's the schedule for now). I had some great conversations with her over the weekend and she is familiar with some of you already and has participated in Piracy oriented events in Beaufort.

http://www.susanschmidt.net/thebook.htm

There is contact info on her website if you want to find out details about the dance.

Mistress Dobyns

Nice find indeed!

Nice to see the case bottles going back that far, as I was told emphatically no,

and must agree with Foxe, hard to tell if it is breeches or drawers under the petticoat breeches.

Case bottles go back at least as far as the first half of the seventeenth century. One was found at the Martin's Hundred site, c. 1620-45.

And yes, the Picart picture is of a Dutch/Flemish sailor. (Brabant actually straddles the Belgian-Dutch border)

This pretty much goes with what I was reading in Hume's "A Guide to Artifacts in Colonial America", it says "Prior to the appearance of the globular-bodied dark green glass bottles of the mid-seventeenth century, the common large bottle was blown into a square-sided mold and had a nearly flat base and a short neck with an everted lip, the latter feature frequently concealed beneath a threaded pewter collar and cap. The bottles varied considerably in size, but because of their vulnerable flat surfaces they were sold, carried, and housed in cases or "cellars", each generally holding a dozen bottles. These case bottles have frequently been described as "Dutch gin bottles," probably because they were so used in the latter part of the eighteenth century. The Dutch bottles for "Hollands" or "Geneva," were certainly square-sectioned (though tapering toward the base), but that does not infer that all square-bodied bottles were of Dutch origin. On the contrary, they undoubtedly represented a very large part of the English bottle output of the first half of the seventeenth century."

There is more, it is really worth checking out a copy of this book if you can get it. Lots of diagrams of various artifacts with their dates and descriptions.

Mistress D.

I think I need to purchase a set of these! How do I go about doing so?

Mistress D.

What a cool look! Great prints!

I did a quick check of my Cut of Men's Clothes and found a couple of casaques that were designed with sleeves that buttoned up the length of the inside seam, allowing for a hanging sleeve or cape-like sleeve if unbuttoned. They dated mid-century. There's an example from 1654 (diagram XIII) which has a similar sleeve as the first sailor's.

There is also a version of this second sleeve, on what is called a doublet, in Fashion in Detail. It also dates to the earlier half of the 17 century. The sleeves button the length of the seam, edges are finished.

These are high-end examples, so the sailor's clothing could possibly be second hand, or demonstrate a filtering down of the fashion over time, or are part of the artist's props, or we just don't have any surviving examples from later in the century. It would be so useful to know more about the artist and date of the engravings.

Love the slops, they kind of look like a block print of some kind. The weskit in the first sailor's picture is the same print. And the woman's sleeve also appears to be a print. Interesting.

The earrings are great, pearl drops instead of hoops! I think I've seen this before, in some portrait, but darn if I can find it now! Will do some digging for extant examples. I have seen something similar worn by someone at Jamestown (I think it was an ECW reenactor), it is a very cool look.

Wool tape makes great garters. Slightly stretchy, but grips enough to hold the stockings up. I've abandoned my leather ones in favor of the wool. I think silk ribbon might also have been used, but those show up in later period paintings.

Mistress Dobyns

Adding to this very old thread so as not to clutter up the files:

Is anyone interested in learning ECD with a period slant (rather than modern) in the Baltimore area? I have a core group that's on hiatus at a historic site northwest of Baltimore, and am hoping to re-start this season if there is sufficient interest. We're definitely organized around dances of the period (mostly doing Playford, with some later dances thrown in) and for those who are interested, I can teach baroque step technique.

I am also willing to consider teaching outside of the current location near Belair, MD, if you're not much further north.

YH&OS

Mistress Dobyns

Hi Folks,

Just got this in my email, might be of interest to those of you who are interested in period food.

Mistress D.

On Saturday, October 16, the New Castle Historical Society, in partnership with the Delaware Historical Society and the Delaware Division of Historical & Cultural Affairs, will present a program on historic Dutch food of the 17th century. The program, "Dutch Foodways: Food in Art & Art in Food" will begin at 1:00 p.m. at the Buena Vista Conference Center on Route 13 South in New Castle, Delaware.<br style="line-height: 1.22em; "><br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">Hudson Valley food historian Peter Rose will discuss historic Dutch foodways in America and the legacy of colonial Dutch cooking on the modern American diet. Peter will use historic Dutch artwork and artifacts to frame her interactive discussion of Dutch food and cooking techniques with the audience. Donuts, pretzels, coleslaw, pancakes, waffles, wafers, and cookies are all part of the culinary legacy that 17th century Dutch settlers left to modern Americans. <br style="line-height: 1.22em; "><br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">This program is partially funded by a grant from the Delaware Humanities Forum, a state program of the National Endowment for the Humanities. <br style="line-height: 1.22em; "><br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">Admission is $8; Admission for members of the New Castle Historical Society or Delaware Historical Society is $5.<br style="line-height: 1.22em; "><br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">Reservations are required for the "Food in Art" program. Please call the New Castle Historical Society at 302-322-2794 to reserve your space today. <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">

So who here in the Pub is qualified to sail her? Supposin' one of us who can't actually wins the lottery, that is.

Mistress D.

Do you have photos from that symposium? Cretainly, it would be fun to view them

I don't have pics from any of the ones I have attended previously, too busy taking notes. The one I posted about that will be in March hasn't happened yet, but I can try to remember the camera if I can attend.

Here are the rest of my photos for the Santa Maria:

http://picasaweb.goo...COeBjZauzbyySA#

So is it just me, or does pic. #12 look like he has a light sabre in his hand? Cool trick of the light, in any case *G*

Mistress D.

Try here or here actually here would be better as it's all the search results

Man, you just come up with the best stuff! Thanks! I could get lost in those documents for hours!

Looks like a tierce is a type of cask, according to this definition: A cask whose content is one third of a pipe; that is, forty-two wine gallons; also, a liquid measure of forty-two wine, or thirty-five imperial, gallons. 2. A cask larger than a barrel, and smaller than a hogshead or a puncheon, in which salt provisions, rice, etc, are packed for shipment.

From the OED online (I love my library service, with my card number they let me access stuff like the OED Times Online and loads of other stuff at home for free =o)

4. An old measure of capacity equivalent to one third of a pipe (usually 42 gallons old wine measure, but varying for different commodities: cf. PIPEn.² 2); also a cask or vessel holding this quantity, usually of wine, but also of various kinds of provisions or other goods (e.g. beef, pork, salmon, coffee, honey, sugar, tallow, tobacco); also such a cask with its contents. 1531 Charterparty in R. G. Marsden Sel. Pl. Crt. Admir. 36 Accounttyng..ij pipes for a ton iiij hoggeshedds for a ton and vj tercys for a ton. 1531-2 Act 23 Hen. VIII, c. 7 §5 The butte, tonne, pype..teers, barrell or rondlett. 1538 ELYOT Addit., Hemicadia, vesselles callyd a tierce, halfe a hoggesheed. 1588 Wills & Inv. N.C. (Surtees) II. 180, ix tearces of honeye, at 16l. per tonne, 24l. 1707 Lond. Gaz. No. 4337/4 On Wednesday..will be exposed to Sale..about 400 Hogsheads and 10 Tierces of..French Claret. 1800 COLQUHOUN Comm. Thames iii. 136 Beef and Pork..contained in..Tierces and Barrels. 1825 Gentl. Mag. XCV. I. 216 [Coffee berries] closely packed in tierces for exportation. <A name=50252595q26>1886 Pall Mall G. 19 June 6/1 The tobacco..comes from abroad..in hogsheads..in what are called tierces (a smaller wooden barrel), and in bales.

Well that's useful! Thanks! The OED was my first choice, but I don't have access like you do. Need to fix that!

Interesting to see that the volume measured can vary depending on the commodity.