dasNdanger

*waves hand in the air* OOO!! OOO!!! I CAN!!! Oh, wait...I have photographs...guess that changes things a bit, eh?? Let me illustrate the problem this way... I am very interested in Native American/Indian culture - pre-1900. Now, the Battle of Little Big Horn occurred in 1876, and Wounded Knee in 1890 - these two events, and the things that occurred inbetween, effectively put an end to the culture of the Plains Indians. Geronimo (Goyaathle) surrendered in 1886, putting an end to the Apache resistance in the Southwest. Tribes in the Northwest and other areas all were contained around the same time, driven onto reservations and forced to give up their old ways. Yet, in many Hollywood movies made less than 60 years later, Indian cultures are confused, with customs of one tribe accredited to another, and their style of dress was greatly misrepresented, with hokey headbands and the like. And that was all done while original ('original', as in those who remembered the old ways) members of the various western tribes were STILL alive!! So, although living closer to a period SHOULD aid in authentic portrayals, it often does not... das

Now yer soundin' like Petee... Thanks, DL, for the pics - okay - now I think I remember seeing weapons like that in the armory at Philadelphia Museum of Art ....or somewhere. So - such weapons would not have been used by a European-type sailor as a standard issued sort of thing - right? (Unless someone had it in a private collection or something, I suppose.) Thanks for clearing that up!! LOL...I STILL say it's an ugly woman...looks a lot like ol' lady Santaniello - mustache and all... das

LOL - I keep checking the header to see WHAT topic I'm in - it's all rather confusing at the moment... And I'd love to see what that man has on his feet - they look like a more practical boot than the bucket style. Whew - I think I'm getting it - finally... So - because I'm just lazy and have no desire to invest in a hot ol' justaucorps, I could base my costume more on the buccaneer era (of course, not sure that there were ever any female buccaneers ...so that just throws the authenticity angle right out the winder... ). If I do - then I will wear breeches of some sort - for the public's sake - and a doublet/waistcoat sort of thing, with a shirt. If you can dig up a good pic of latchet shoes, or of that statue's boots, that would help, because I doubt that I'd bother with hot ol' bucket boots! I have other questions, but I will leave them for the Buccaneer thread. das

Okie dokie - in the boots thread Foxe posted this picture: I have a question about the weaponry...specifically about those squiggly swords (*note my in-depth knowledge of proper terminology...* ) I thought the only ships that had such swords were Klingon ships!! Please explain their place in history, and on ships...and while yer at it, what's up with that ugly dame?? Thankies in advance... das

Arrr...I be afeared that's wot me mates say 'bout me! *Dons another layer of clothing to smother the stench* You know...I'm not so shur that this place is edgecatin' me right...it seems I'm rememberin' the myths, and fergettin' the truths... das

LOL - fun song...BUT...IT'S NOT 'PERIOD'!!! Sorry, couldn't resist.... das

OOOOHHHHHH!!!!!! I get it now!!!! Kinda like how men today drive really BIG trucks, even though they don't have big... ...uh, nevermind.... And thanks fer the hanky!! Foxe, et al: As far as 'stealing' boots - well, I guess I'm thinking more along the lines of the filibusters, who spent a bit of time ashore raiding and pillaging...but that's before the GAoP. And there was always the odd merchant ship or two, with goods for the colonies and islands. But no worries...I don't for a moment think that pirates EVER sacked a Boot Barn or anything... Okay - now yer gonna make my head explode again! Did you not say in the beginning that they didn't wear slops much, and then that they wore slops instead of breeches? Is there a time-frame diff here, or do I have Peteeitis and I'm just reading something wrong? So - GAoP attire consisted of: a hat, shirt, jacket (with or without waistcoat), neck-cloth, breeches or trousers, stockings, and shoes. Is that 'jacket' short, or more like a justaucorps? And Buccaneer era attire consisted of: a hat and doublet (instead of waistcoat?) and breeches (loose or tight legged?) and boots - or another type of shoe (WHAT kind of shoe if not boots?) No coat for this period??? Slowly, but surely, things ARE starting to sink in... das

I could of sworn that I have seen an engraving with him in an "justa-thingy" and "tri-corn" Bet yer teachers cringed every time you raised yer hand in class - right? Yeah - that's why I speculated over a crew of thirty fightin' over one pair of boots. Of course - pirates WERE pirates, afterall - and no one is saying that they couldn't have swiped a few boots in their time, without paying, right? AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!! *pulls hair out* Okay - THAT just screwed me all up, and NOT in the 'good way.' So...if a sailor had a specific and distinct 'costume' (for lack of a better word), and if pirates were sailors, then - why, oh why - did they need to wear coats, breeches, stockings, buckle shoes, etc on land? JUST for the dictates of propriety? Since they were seamen with a distinct set of clothes, was it acceptable - and did they regardless - go ashore in slops and a shirt, scarf around the neck and knife at the small of the back? Or was it always necessary to wear the bloody, hot coat and stockings, and if so, then wouldn't they have just blended with society, and IF SO, then why would anyone try to disguise themselves as a sailor if a sailor was wearing what everyone else was wearing?!!! GAH!!! BOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!! oops...there it goes... me head just exploded... das

Thanks, much!!! Living at a time when weapons just aren't openly displayed (in most societies), it's odd to see all of these pictures of sword-wielding folks roaming about town. Now I won't look at the pictures with so much scepticism... das

Okay - poor Foxe - you're gonna IMPLODE!!! LOL!! Thanks for sharing all your knowledge and research. And I agree 100% - the era in question MUST be considered, AND clarified. I just have one more thing to comment on, then I gotta get back to work (though this is MUCH more fun!!). Regarding fashion - we know that certain items became fashion because someone important wore them first - like wigs for example. Wigs - in my humble - were totally impractical, yet the majority of people wore them because it was fashionable to do so. I think the same may hold true with the whole boot thing - if it was the fashion, then men would wear them, horsemen or not. Kinda like how my husband wears cowboy boots, even though he's never ridden a horse, or roped a bull. And then there is the whole Star Trek uniform thing... See what I'm saying - just like you don't have to be a cowboy to wear cowboy boots, you don't HAVE to be a cavalier to wear boots - IF the fashion has caught on with the general public. So - that brings me to my next question...or, more accurately, my request for clarification. 1. Did men - in general (gentlemen and/or commoners) - wear boots (esp. 'bucket' style boots) in the early 1600's as part of their normal, about-town attire, or do they seem to be more of an eccentricity enjoyed by only a few? 2. Same question, but late 1600's-early 1700's? (I'm assuming here that the answer is 'no') 3. IF boots were more likely worn by pirates during the earlier part of the 17th century, then why don't re-enactors who prefer boots focus on that era, while shoe lovers stick with the GAoP - I mean, there certainly were enough notable pirates from the Buccaneer era to keep bucket boot fans busy. 4. For the sake of 'fun' - I see nothing wrong with an entire crew of booted pirates showing up at ren faires and pirate festivals. However, I see your point about the percentages...so...why is it that even among some who strive for accuracy, so many want to wear the boots? LOL - could it be that man hasn't changed all that much over the centuries, and 'art' is imitating life?? I can see it now...1650...a crew of 30 men waiting to go ashore for a night on the town...and only one pair of boots between them...I can just hear it now.... "Oi! I'm captain - I should be wearin' the boots!!" "But all things are equal here - and you wore the boots last time, so it's another man's turn." "Personally, I don't wanna wear the boots - they smell worse than a barrel o' pork gone off!" "I know - what if I wear 'em for the first day, and then Smitty wears 'em on the second day, and then..." "Bloody hell - I'm hungry - I say we EAT 'EM!" Carry on, fellas... das

Well - for a pirate, just going ashore might be a 'formal event' - depending on the quality of the local doxies, of course... So, in my travels around the net, it seems as if boots were probably worn by some pirates (for shore ventures, most likely)...say, prior to c. 1670...and after that they gave way to the more popular buckle shoe - both on land and at sea. Some interesting ideas here - http://www.pubcat.org.uk/clobber_clothes.htm - though the site states that the information is not for academic use, it still sounds like they've done a wee bit of research on the clothing end of things. Any thoughts on this site's information - accurate, or inaccurate? das

Wow - which pair are from a shipwreck (and which shipwreck)? Here's much earlier pics from the Mary Rose - http://privateer.omena.org/privateerclothe...esfootwear.html I tend to agree with this statement on that site: "It is unlikely that a common sailor would wear boots on the ship, but a pair of "dress boots" would be acceptable for formal events on land or an officer aboard ship." das

okay - I have a question about this Morgan picture, and every other pirate picture I've ever seen: Would they have pranced around in public sporting muskets and pistols and cutlasses - or is this just 'artistic license' taken to distinguish a pirate from a respectable gentleman/gentlewoman? das

Wow - you've just proven the size of your....erm...boots...just by startin' this topic!! HUZZAH!!! I was wondering if anyone has ever contacted the so-called pirate experts on this subject - pirate hunters, museums, etc...?? Of course, I'm sure there are a lot of opinions on the subject, even amongst professionals, but it might be a good idea to let them do a little leg work for us... Now - I'm leaning towards the concept that boots may have been worn aboard ship during the Buccaneer era, and perhaps even the Elizabethan (not 100% sure about that since I haven't researched yet), but, most likely, only by the man in charge, and only when he wanted to prove he WAS in charge. On shore missions it might be possible that some men wore boots - though the thought that...gah...someone...entertained about men wrapping their legs in cloth also sounds feasible. And around town, well - I think it's very possible that any well-dressed pirate would want to wear what is fashionable, and if boots were the 'thing' at the time, then sure, they wore 'em, but for stepping out, and not for sailing. It's also possible that pirates who had shore residences just kept shore clothes on shore, and so if captured, those boots wouldn't have been part of their personal inventory. But of course, none of the above is 'proof' - just speculation. Right now it would be better to see some tangible proof - either in the form of a picture, or personal accounts. Of course, like someone else said (boy, the memory is slipping), 'common' things may not have warranted special note...so if boots were ever common, then no special mention may have been made. Still - I don't see the practicality of bulky bucket boots aboard ship - but on shore - well, why not??! This goes back to my other comment about the re-enactor's choice to portray a pirate as he would look in his working clothes, or in his leisure attire. das

Just want to bump this up so that I can take a look at it during the week when I'm on a faster computer...gah, 9 pages....I hope there aren't too many novels in there!! I'll see what I can find out about Arrawak tanning - I have a good collection of books on the native peoples of the New World - but I think the island cultures aren't very well documented. Looking forward to reading through this thread! das

Ah, yeah - did a search on 'Elizabethan Sea Dogs' and several things popped up - so that'll work. Oh!! the Buccaneer Project...I remember seeing that, but not sure I ever read it...let me have a look-see!! Thankies, mate! das

Yeah - that might be the case. It's hard to tell the way the dictionaries are written - that quote I posted was from the net, in my dictionary at home it first gives all the definitions, then states, "1625-35 - American. Boot + Leg; secondary senses arose from the practice of hiding a liquor bottle in the leg of one's boot" - but it doesn't specify when those secondary senses took hold. I'm liking the buccaneer era more and more - first pig roasts, now BOOTS!! WOOT! *DOH!* I forgot about that little tidbit - mine eyes were blinded by Hollywood, forgive me... das

Wow - k...I think I like this era WAY better!! Is there any way we can discuss it in further detail?? More, more, MORE!! Was...oh...what's his name...me secret favorite pirate of all time...Laurent de Graff (Larens, Lorenzo, or whatever you wanna call him) considered from this era, or the GAoP? And I know that Drake wasn't a 'buccaneer' - more of an explorer...but lol, there goes Webster's dictionary calling him a 'buccaneer'....lol! Anywho, what I was wondering was whether or not there was a piratey name for his time period, besides Elizabethan. Thanks SO much for answering so quickly!! I'm digging the pig roasting pit as we speak!!!! das

Okay, okay, okay...LOTS of questions here... 1. So, when did this (Buccaneer) era begin, and when did it end? Did it date back as far as Drake & Co., and if not, what was THAT era, in piratical terms, called, if anything? (Besides 'Elizabethan') 2. Is this 'technically' when the Spanish Main was...well, the Spanish Main? As a term, did the Spanish Main actually still exist during the GAoP if Spain had, by then, lost some of its power in the region due to the shenanigans of the French/Dutch/British? 3. Did they wear sashes, bucket boots and earrings during the Buccaneer era? 4. Was piracy (as I have always thought) more 'acceptable' during this era since it was often state-sponsored, or at least, state-winked-at. 5. Besides Morgan, who were men of note during this era? Of these men, who were out-and-out pirates, and who were more like privateers? 6. Is the story I've heard of how the buccaneers (of Tortuga) turned pirate accurate - i.e.: French hunters were driven off of Hispaniola when the Spanish killed off the wild game in efforts to, well, drive the French off the island. The buccaneers, now on Tortuga, then retaliated by preying on Spanish ships that came around looking to restock their water/stores. Is it also true that the French sent prostitutes to the island in efforts to 'civilize' the men... NOT sure how THAT was supposed to work...but... 7. In my humble, this sounds like the more interesting period of piracy history in the Caribbean, when piracy flourished, and the relatively short GAoP (30 years?) seems more like the death throes of piracy in the region. If this is the case, then WHY do people focus on the GAoP instead of the previous era which, it seems, tends to be the era, with all of its trappings, that trickles into film about the GAoP? True, some items/practices from latter times (walking the plank, for instance) also find their way into tales about the GAoP - but it seems to me that more people confuse the styles, etc., of the buccaneer era with the GAoP. 8. And this is the most important question - what sort of pistol/musket was used during the buccaneer era? The relatively new flintlock (c. 1612)? Were matchlock, wheel lock, or snaphaunce (or any others) still in use during this 'buccaneer era'? Whew!!! That's all for now!! das

Oh, I don't think you made a mistake - you were close enough. Actually, I always thought the term came from prohibition days...so it's nice to get a reference point. The site doesn't go back any further, HOWEVER...I just looked up in my Webster's Dictionary...and wow - we were BOTH wrong!! LOL!! According to Webster's: Function: noun (1634). 1 : the upper part of a boot. 2 : something bootlegged; specifically : MOONSHINE. Function: verb (1900). transitive senses: 1 a : to carry (alcoholic liquor) on one's person illegally; b : to manufacture, sell, or transport for sale (alcoholic liquor) illegally. 2 a : to produce, reproduce, or distribute illicitly or without authorization; b : SMUGGLE. Hmm...so, as a noun referring to a smuggled good it's been around since 1634? Could Webster's been wrong? And why would it have taken nearly 300 years to evolve into a verb? I knew you were gonna say that...soooo...IF as the 'ultimate Buccaneer' Morgan has been portrayed as a man with a penchant for boots - of some kind - then I say forget the boring ol' GAoP, and dress like a foppish buccaneer!! Okay - now I'm going into the realm of wild speculation here...so bear with me. What if - during the early part of the 17th century - pirates/buccaneers/filibusters/freebooters and the like DID wear boots, but only ashore. From what I've read, many pirates during that time had digs on the islands, etc...not living 24/7 aboard ship. When crews were recruited, they'd go to sea...then afterwards they would disperse, live ashore, spend their wealth and sit tight until called to got to sea again. During that time ships weren't the most important thing, and many pirates operated out of small boats. So...could it be possible that these men just dressed like normal folk - crazy boots and all - when on shore, and donned their sailor garb when at sea. Land clothes kept on land, sailing clothes worn aboard ship. I mean, a pirate would want to 'blend' into society by dressing like the rest of the men around. If this was the case, then it falls on the re-enactor to decide what sort of pirate he wants to portray. Does he want to portray the pirate as he probably would have been ashore - dressed like everyone else, to the best of his ability, or does he want to portray the pirate in his working duds. I would think that no pirate (unless the weather merited it) would be wearing a heavy justaucorps and bulky boots while working out in the hot Caribbean sun. However, would a reenactor wear 'in towne' what a pirate would probably be wearing aboard ship - probably not much more than slops (with or without drawers) and a working knife, and a bandana/neckerchief/cap. I think herein lies the problem. 'Formal' attire v. work attire. Sure, some things probably were mixed and matched, and there may have been degrees of shore attire, but unlike Naval officers who actually had dress uniforms and the like, pirates would only have civilian finery for shore visits, or shore life, while wearing traditional sailor attire aboard ship. Also - I suspect there would be a difference between what a 'captain' would wear as opposed to what the grunts would wear. This is JUST speculation, of course...I'm not suggesting that this is how things actually were. However, I would like to see what others think in this regard. It does have a bearing on that picture of Morgan - looking very much like a gentleman about town...with a gun. The ship, the gun, and any other 'piratey' effects were probably just added to enhance the picture anyway... das

Poor hurricane...he so wanted this NOT to be a boot discussion... bootleg 1889 (adj.), 1903 (v.), Amer.Eng. slang, from the trick of concealing something down the leg of a high boot (originally a flask of liquor). Okay - just to bring it back to the original topic. I think the picture of Morgan may be a fair representation of what a gentleman would wear during the period in question, but I also think it's an exaggeration, based on the pictures in the links in my other post. Amongst those pictures are a few comical ones, exaggerating the 'excesses' of the British gentleman. I also believe that shore attire would be much different from ship attire - and that would also depend on how long a man stayed ashore. I have a question - it relates to the other thread discussing the 'buccaneer' period. During that period, with the land raids, etc, would boots have been more common? And where would Morgan and his fancy dress have fallen - in that era, or the GAoP? das

No legitimate ones, yes... I don't know the relation, actually - just some sort of connection. Perhaps it's not blood - servants/slaves often took on the name of their masters, so it could be something like that. However, he claims that the story has long been told in the family (his family name is Morgan), and so...hey, anything's possible. I'm related to Teddy Roosevelt - yet the family connection cannot be found in any history book because, you see, it was a master/slave thing between (according to an obituary) Teddy's father and me great-great-great-grandma (though, based on family names, I think the man in question may have been an uncle on Teddy's mum's side). So, who knows what Morgan was up to - I'm we don't know the half of it... Interesting - although we aren't supposed to be talking about the bloody boots, I've learned quite a bit here. I'm starting to come to an unsupported conclusion here - we may not need to see bucket boots worn aboard a ship if they were for land action or visits only. It doesn't mean that a GAoP pirate never wore them, just that he never wore them while working the ship - which would make sense. Now - I'm going to jump forward 100 years - give or take. In Nelson's Navy, c 1800, midshipmen wore 'Hessian' boots - so wearing boots aboard ship was not unheard of. I also found this comment: "Thigh high boots were originally worn by pirates and smugglers, who tucked contraband or "booty" into them. The practice gave rise to the term, "bootlegging'. " - can someone confirm this, or correct it? It was from this site: http://podiatry.curtin.edu.au/boot.html#chop Hmmm....looks like a pair of Morgan's boots there at the bottom of the 17th century.... das

You scored as Millennium Falcon (Star Wars). The world around you is at war. Fortunately you know how to handle that with the greatest of ease. You are one of the best at what you do and no one needs to tell you that. Now if only the droids could be quiet for five seconds. My top 5: Millennium Falcon (Star Wars) 88% Babylon 5 (Babylon 5) 75% Moya (Farscape) 75% Galactica (Battlestar: Galactica) 75% Enterprise D (Star Trek) 63% I found that rather interesting - makes me think the government is using it to screen dissenters... uh...maybe I should have agreed with that conspiracy theory question... das

Nope, I meant The Apple - where the planet is controlled by a sophisticated computer called Vaal (Disney), creating a paradise-like planet. But the flowers spray poison darts (coral snakes, ride mishaps) and soon the crew (tourists) realize the place isn't quite the paradise it appears to be. You know - I really watched WAY too much Star Trek when I was a kid...blame it ALL on Chekov... das

Not that I have any proof, but I would think that cribbage, invented in the early 1600's and eventually popular among sailors (at least much later when me pa was in the Navy), may have found it's way onto pirate ships. In fact, many boards, like me own, are in the shape a ship. Board games like Nine Man's Morris (mentioned), Solitaire (the game of jumping nails or pegs on a board until only one is left), and Fox and Geese are all very, very old, and have been popular for centuries. It's safe to say that such easily made games were played aboard ships of all kinds during the time in question. Interestingly, although the first dominoes date back to c.1120 China, there is no reference to them in Europe until the mid-18th century, so although popular in the Caribbean to this day, they probably were introduced long after the GAoP. Aboard Asian pirate ships, however, they may have been played. What would be interesting to know is what sort of 'less cultured' games were really played. I know of skylarking, races/contests between watches (esp. in the navy, and certainly on pirate ships), and the like- but what of the little things. Did pirates play an early version of mumbly-peg, or other similar games of 'skill'? It's the small things that intrigue me...just thinking of how things were when I was young and bored - why heck, we could make a game out of anything, even hurling horse poo at the boys next door!!! Wish we had some eye-witness reports documenting the sort of games - traditional or otherwise - that pirates, even sailors in general, played. Anyone have such info? das