Hawkyns

Agreed, the standards and signals need to be laid down at the safety meeting before any powder box is unlocked. Signals for loaded guns, powder handling regs, minimum time between shots, signals for misfire, misfire drills, and chain of command need to be clear, agreed to, and enforced right from the start. For the 25 years I've been owning and firing cannon, I've used the drills and regs from the Brigade of the American Revolution and the British Brigade. They are simple, clear, and designed to deal with battle scenarios with spectators. With a few minor modifications to meet the needs of earlier period guns, they are the best thing I've seen out there. One thing though. If you have spectators within 10 feet of a loaded and firing piece, that is breaking every safety rule in the book. Every set of safety rules out there, from National Muzzleloading Artillery rules, to BAR and BB to Civil War and NPS require a much greater stand off. If they are no more than 10 feet away, they would be between the powder box and the piece, since the powder box should be at least 20 feat away, to prevent touch hole debris from landing on it. Hawkyns

Not sure what you're saying, Jim. Should we start to use non period terms, just because some people don't want to learn the correct ones? Maybe it's because I work mostly with re-enactors, but "Fire in the hole" is pretty much looked down on with them. Hawkyns

I've always used "Have A Care!!" Quite period, and pretty much standard usage in 17th Century re-enacting, which is the closest re-enactmnt period to GAoP. In the later 18th C British Army, it changed to 'Take Care". Either way, it is a call for all about to pay attention to what is going on. Hawkyns

I tend to discouunt faire as a venue. For one thing, it predates GAoP so unless you aredoing Drake's period, it's really out of place. Second, faire requires weapons to be peace tied at all times, so unless you are part of cast, there is no opportunity to swing a blade at all. I'm thinking more of the specific pirate festivals, where all groups get time on the field, or historic timelines, where the same sort of thing applies. I would never consider just drawing on another group of wandering pirates or soldiers in a public area. The battle, fight, duel or whatever would need to be scheduled and monitored by marshals no matter what, in a secured area. No, my concern is as I have said, that we don't make the standard low so that "everyone" can play, and eliminate the hard core people. That can happen, either by sites getiing the idea that that is the standard, or by other groups within ourselves deciding that we are too 'rough' for them and not inviting the hard core or refusing them time on the field. I've seen it too many times. Even Nell said she would be uncomfortable with a group such as ours at an event she was involved in. Hawkyns

Nell, I wasn't trying to ruffle feathers, sorry if that happened. I was just pointing out that there are a lot of ways to play this game and a lot of different views on what we need. I'm not saying authentic is the only way to go, just that some of us would be upset if the game was rigged so that only the choreographed stuff became 'offical'. I've been fighting with swords for 30 years and teaching for 20, in a bunch of different groups. My experience is that as soon as one group sets up 'rules' and promotes them widely, they have way too much of a tendency to become the defacto standard. Once you get to that point, the event organisers, both within and without, see that defacto standard as the only way to play and other methods get ignored as not good enough or banned as 'unsafe'. And far too often it is the case that the defacto standard becomes the lower level of combat so as tobe 'inclusive', and those who want to take the game further and are willing to take the risks of a few bruises are considerd crazy and not allowed to play. That is what I'm fighting against. I don't want to see the choreographed, 'safer' method of sword play become the only game in town and my crew and those others who play harder get cut out of the pirate festivals. I've been the victim of such so called satey issues before, and I don't want it to happen again. Hawkyns

By chance, this just showed up on my Live Journal account. The 2009 Midwinter Stage Combat Seminars Open Sessions The following seminars are open to all participants: Barehanded Brawling – Your body is a weapon; use it! This session will cover classic contact, non-contact, and shared moves, as well as more advanced grappling and percussive techniques. The class will culminate in the creation and performance of an unarmed mass brawl involving all participants. Broadsword Boot Camp – Our most popular class is back! This highly physical session is designed to reinforce the fundamentals of fighting with the broadsword and to introduce advanced techniques. Instruction in footwork, primary parries, and primary attacks, leading into more complex modes of offense and defense. Intensive Rapier – A fast-paced course in the movement patterns and bladework of the Renaissance’s signature weapon. Session will include linear and circular styles, deceptions and prises de fer; offhand weapons may be introduced, at the instructors’ discretion. Heavy emphasis will be placed on form, scrupulous accuracy and speed of execution… be ready for a workout! Medieval Heavy Metal – The sword is only the beginning in this whirlwind tour of the knightly arts. Students will be exposed to the offensive and defensive capabilities of variety of weapons, including axe, shield, spear, hammer, halberd, and flail, and will have the opportunity to wield them in a variety of combinations. Armor may be introduced, at the instructors’ discretion. “Rob & Cliff’s Dirty Tricks” – Our famous grab-bag session is now open to your suggestions! Students signing up for this course are encouraged to include their own stage combat ideas and requests as part of their application. We’ll review them in the weeks prior to the class, and (while we already have a number of surprises of our own in mind) some of them just may be chosen as part of the curriculum. Past sessions have included found weapons, martial arts for the stage, mismatches, and the infamous “Magic Marker Circle of Death”… will your idea be next? Master Classes The following seminars are open to experienced students only, as determined by the instructors: Blindfighting – Students will test their mental and physical acuity as we bring the legend of the “Blind Swordsman” to life. Beginning with rapier-based sightless training exercises to heighten movement sensitivity and partner awareness, the session will finish with each student taking the role of a blind fighter facing multiple opponents. Close Quarters Combat – This technique-intensive session will address the problem every fighter must face sooner or later: how to safely and convincingly create and perform a staged fight in a space that’s much smaller than you’d like! Students will be given a variety of weapons and spatial & personnel restrictions to deal with, and will work together with the instructors in creating effective sequences within them. A must for anyone who’s ever had to swashbuckle under a chandelier, or fight in a phone booth… The Place: The VDA studio in Somerville, MA. Directions are available from the VDA website: simply go to http://www.vdaproductions.com/contact-off.html and click on “Get Directions”. The Dates: Sessions will run during the first three weekends of February, i.e. the 7th, 8th, 14th, 15th, 21st and 22nd. The Cost: We always strive to keep the price as low as possible; given the current lean times, we have frozen the price at last year’s rate. The cost per session is $35; doing both sessions on a given day nets you a $10 discount ($60 for the day). We can take cash or checks, and payment is on the day, at the start of class. Signing Up: Please note that you cannot sign up by replying here! E-mail Cliff at coscaram@yahoo.com and list what sessions you want to attend. If you’re signing up for one or both Master Classes, be sure to detail your previous experience! No advance payment is necessary. Our class sizes have to be limited due to space restrictions, so first come, first served. By the same token, if you sign up, show up (if you must cancel, let us know in advance so we can give your spot to someone else)! Gloves are strongly recommended for all classes. Wear comfortable clothing that allows free movement, and that you don’t mind sweating in. For classes where armor may be introduced, we recommend bringing a spare sweatshirt for padding purposes. Students who have their own stage-combat equipment are encouraged to bring it; if you will be doing so, please tell us in your sign-up letter. Equipment will be provided for students who don't have their own. Feel free to contact either Cliff or Robert with questions. Hope to see you there! Hawkyns

Nah, I'm not coming across right, I guess. Define 'real'. We are not fighting to prove anything other than that we know how to use our weapons. There is no animosity and it does not matter who wins. Think of us as more like a karate or kendo school doing a demo. There is a growing movement and increase in what is now being called Western Martial Arts. We are a subgroup of that. As far as the drunk spectators, I've seen that often enough at ren faire, so its not something that would be unique to us, though we've never actually had that problem. I never said we were for everyone, but we do offer another dimension to pirate combat. Hawkyns

Yes, Nell. We fight unchoreographed, unarmoured, and we expect the blades to contact us. With a certain number of strikes and their counters, and with them getting thrown at you many times, you learn how to block. It's the same sort of training you would get at a karate dojo. Doing it this way there is no need to act. The strikes are real, the reaction time is real and it looks compltely natural. The only "fake" part is that the blades are blunted and that we are only operating at 2/3 - 3/4 speed. Let me also address the issue of different levels of swordsman. Pirates or privateers were professionals. They would consider their weapons and the knowledge of them the tools of their trade. So I can see few instances where you would actually have a complete novice against a master. Hawkyns

True, its a philosophical difference. My thought is that two opponents who have never met or fought would be somewhat hesitant and feel each other out. So a slower starting fight, with a few false starts, is normally what we see. I've been in fights where we have circled each other, feinted and psyched at each other for over five minutes before the blades even met. It is, as I said, dependant on what you are looking for. Since we see this more as a form of martial art, rather than a play for the public, we are more interested in the fight itself, rather than the oohs and ahhs of the crowd. Hawkyns

Definitely agree that, especially with the limitations. Another thing that occurs as I read these posts, that should have occurred to me before. We don't choreograph. We learn the strikes and the counters, and then our fights are all free bouts. Doing the same fight over and over again completely removes any spontanaiety. After a while, you can see the combatants as they start to prepare for what they know is coming, instead of reacting to the blow thrown. Hawkyns

Mary I have no problem with that, and If I implied otherwise, I misspoke. We all have different levels of commitment to what we do, and different lengths to which we are prepared to go. I would not wish all to go to the lengths that we do, if the commitment is not there, then neither is the safety. I am full well aware that for many, re-enactment in general or pyracy in particular is no more than a hobby, while for others of us, it is a lifestyle. That lifestyle may be no more than attending as many faires as possible while for others it is a true attempt to recreate the lifestyle with all its dangers, discomforts, and risks. No, my point was to illustrate that with such varying degrees of commitment and training, a truly universal set of combat conventions is virtually impossible. If we do not train together, if we do not have the same concept of the aura of safety, if we do not have a common speed, or weapon weight, then a common language of blows would not mean much. While I would truly love to be able to fight people outside my own crew, I recognise that it is not possible without at least a couple of days for us to understand the dynamics of each style. Hawkyns

That's one of the stylistic differences that makes the idea of a universal system pretty much of a non starter. My crew is a hardcore crew, authenticity is stressed over Hollywood. We're all re-enactors from other periods, so this is not a stretch at all. Most of us are also active in Western Martial Arts. We make body contact with swords, bucklers, bodies (the patella montante, or kneecap to the cods is one of my favourites) so the training is to pull the blow. I fought one of my lads through the camp a couple of years ago to the point that he wound up bent backwards over a table with my blade at this throat. And there was nobody form the public watching. We do this as much for ourselves as for the public, to know that the blades we carry are not just a show piece or a stage prop. We also live fire our muskets in target competiton, so that we prove to ourselves that we really do know what we are doing. Yes, people can get hurt. We are just as aware that a sword fight can go wrong as we are that a musket barrel can blow or a cannon become a pipe bomb, or someone can go overboard. Re-enactment is a dangerous hobby, but the adrenaline rush that comes from a good battle is worth the risk, as long as people are well trained. Hawkyns

Coming very late to the discussion, I've got a couple of points to make. I've been training my crew and a few others for a bunch of years with the Sealed Knot sword method. 5 cuts- body inside, body outside, overhead or St. George, leg inside and leg outside. 5 defenses to match. We fight with blunts and no armour or masks. No thrusts, because the blades we use have virtually no flex, so a mistake is mutltiple times worse. I don't teach my people to fence, I teach them to fight with swords. Martial arts style, bruises are part of the game and to be expected as with any martial art. So yes, we get hit. We also grapple and kick as part of this. Speed is at about 2/3 to 3/4 maximum. That is for both safety and so that the crowd can actually see the swords move. We don't really bother with wasters because a hit with a waster and a hit with a blunt are nearly the same thing. One of the first things I teach is to pull a blow. To be proficient at the style I teach, you should be able to bring the weapon at combat speed to within an inch or so of the target, then stop it so that the last inch is enough to allow the touch. This requires a fair amount of wrist and arm strength. There are 3 methods of safety. One is to wear protection, such as the SCA or LARPS wear. Second is to use what someone here referred to as the aura of safety, keeping the blades away from the person. The third, and the one I teach, is control. Pell work, target work and strength training for the arms are needed, as well as a good sense of timing and the willingness to deal with overthrown shots. I've never been impressed with most stage work. It looks fake because it is too slow and because the blades rarely come close enough to threaten realistically. Film work is different, they generally have more time and better resources. Ren faire fight troupes are better because they do actually make contact, though they put too much reliance on armor for my taste. I don't know how well a universal fight method would work. Without the constant training and working together, regional or crew differences will develop. One crew will be fine with a few bruises, another will not. Some will fight fairly quickly others will develop a slower paced fight. I think I've said this before, but if you want to watch an excellent edge vs point, or sword vs rapier fight, watch the final fight in the movie Rob Roy. Bill Hobbes did and amazing job with that one and it is the sort of fight we should be aspiring to. Hawkyns

Well, you are looking at a vety transitional period. The matchlock is still in service with the British army, the doglock is very common in British and Dutch circles, and the flintlock is rising fast, especially in areas of French influence. Here is a doglock musket of the right period. http://www.loyalistarms.freeservers.com/doglockmusk.html Note the wooden rammer and the sharp curve to the lock plate, the so called banana lock. Both are common features at this time. Here is the French version, still with a wooden rammer, but not so much curve to the lock plate. Note. also. the sharp drop of the stock to the buttplate. http://www.loyalistarms.freeservers.com/16...;sfrmarine.html The Brown Bess, correctly called the King's Arm, is outside your parameters, since the first model was not dated until 1728. A late 17th C matchlock is here http://www.albionsmallarms.co.uk/ASAGraphi...handdoglock.jpg Note the stock is more like a modern gunstock than the fishbutt of the earlier century. The lockplate now has the shape of a flintlock musket, rather than the earlier rectaangular plate. These are your three basics of that period. Of course there are carbine variants, musketoons, blunderbusses, dragons, etc with similar lock styles. Any of the earlier arms would still be in service, of course. Much of the decision depends on whether you want a state of the art weapon for the period, a weapon that has seen some service, but been acauired later in it's life, or a piece that has been cobbled together from leftover or unbroken parts. One thing that I have noticed among re-enactors is that, no matter the status, wealth, or position of the re-enactor, they tend to have the most modern, fancy, expensive gun, which is kept in new, shiny bright condition. To me, it is a jarring image that beleis the fact that the majority of people in the period were on the lower end of society and would have what they could acquire, no matter how ugly, stained, and dinged. JMHO. Hawkyns

Not sure I'd agree with that, Cascabel. The matchlock has been my primary piece for the last 20 years, being that I prefer 16th-17th c period. I can and have fired in the rain, and under many questionable conditions. Knowing where to cock your match, keeping your pan cover well tightened and greased, knowing how much prime and where to set it in the pan all comes into play. With a well tuned matchlock, I can get ignition just as fast as a flintlock. The wheelock, on the other hand is touchy, very dependant on the piece of pyrite in the cock (most people I know have switiched to using the misch metal from industrial welding strikers), and a real pain. Historically, the matchlock was more useful, since it could take more abuse, and could even fire with a completely broken or missing lock, by just dipping the match in by hand, especially useful when the drill called for the piece to be used as a club when your bandolier was empty. On the other hand, the wheelock was subject to all manner of problems. Leaving it spanned for any length of time would ensure that it would not fire, since spring steel was in it's infancy and would take a set to the spanned position. The chain would break, the sear come unhooked. It was also a high maintainance item. Since the pan is effectively open to the lock, powder would sift down into the works. I have personally seen a lock blow out of the side of the piece when too much powder got into the pistol and wasn't cleaned out. References from the Germanies during the 30 Years War advise reiter squadrons to make very sure they had a well equipped and skillful armorer with them at all times, due to the problems with the wheelocks. Like any other weapon, it depends on how familiar you are with it and how good your your maintainance is. I have two matchlocks and two wheelocks. The wheelocks look interesting and are great for conversation starters with the public, but when I am going into a shooting competition, I want my matchlock. I know it will work when it counts, something I can not be sure of with the wheel. Hawkyns

Check out Muller's "Treatise of Artillery". Written in 1780, it has a lot of information on carriages, dimensions, and practice. It's what I used when I made the naval carriage for my 2 pounder. Its available from Museum Resoration Services, but most book services have it, too. Hawkyns

A saddle, bridle and complete tack (I'm a smuggler as much as privateer, so the interest in the land side of the business is just as much of interest.) A brace of pistols and a hunting fusil, along with flasks, bottles and turnscrews to match. Books, especially maps and charts. A good cocked hat of beaver fur. After shopping, dinner and a pint or two at the Cittie of York in High Holborn. People watching and listening would be as important as the shopping. Hawkyns

Sorry BlackJohn, I rarely get to this forum so I didn't see the thread. Hawkyns

and released Scarecrow, 45 years later. Some friends are just receiving their copies, mine should be here in a few days. Wonderful movie with Patrick McGoohan as Dr. Syn, parson by day, smuggler by night. Great 18th century stuff, one of the classics. I'm still trying to acquire a full set of the books by Russel Thorndike. Anybody else getting a copy? Hawkyns

Treasure Island, the 1990 version with Heston and Reed. Real ships, correct costuming, a good look at life 19 the 18th c. Reed has always been one of my favourite actors, his Athos in the 3 Musketeers movies was sheer magic. He played a pirate as it should be played. And I've coveted for years that little sailing dinghy that hem arrives in. Add to that soundtrack by the Chieftains and you've got one hell of a movie. But nobody has mentioned Conquest with Jenna Jameson Hawkyns

Cutlass or hanger for me, or an Irish Hilt broadsword (forerunner of the scots basket hilt). I have an original 18th c blade that I relihilted to a shell guard for my standard carry piece, and I was fortunate to find an almost identical piece from Darkwood that was made as a fighting blunt. I also have an Irish Hilt blunt from Armourclass that serves me well for re-enactment fighting. I studied Silver as a fighting style, so my preference is always something that I can get in close with, use edge rather than point, and use pommel and guard as easily as blade. Hawkyns

Yep, you've pretty much nailed it. The only thing I would really add to it is that in that position, it is impossible to handle the tools correctly, an underhand grip with the thumbs pointing out and not wrapped around the shaft. Also, I would lay bets that it is impossible tp get the "feel" on the worm to know if there is any of the aluminum cartridge left in the breech. (they ARE using correct aluminum foil cartridges, aren't they?) Hawkyns

Well, a gun should have at least a 3 man crew and that would allow for removing the lashings and bringing the gun inboard to clear and reload. What they are doing there is dangerous in so many ways. Hawkyns

'Day, te ye Dorian. Thanks for posting a couple of pics of my pieces. The red one is Voice, an early 17th century piece, the blue one is Cricket, a 15th century piece. I also have Morning Glory, a mortar, and Nightingale, a swivel on a wheeled carriage. Pics to come of them as I can. Strange to see Voice here this mornin g, for as we speak, she sits in the yard having fresh paint put to her, in preparation for the Imperial Acadamy of Gunnery, an SCA event just north of Allentown, PA, this weekend. http://www.eisental.eastkingdom.org/events/gunnery/ Pay not so much attention to the class list, that is the list of non gunnery topics. I am teaching cannon safety and matchlock drill, and others will teach on other subjects. Hawkyns

I'll agree with all of that, especially the part about permits. The on again off again situation made it impossible to know what was going on, so we decided to take no chances and stood down. Period vendors would be a good thing. I know it was a first year fair, but there was a bit too much of the local craft fair image about it. Advertising- I don't know what there was, but it seemed from my point of view that it had been aimed a bit too much at the 12 and under set and their parents. Certainly that seemed to be the primary patron. How about getting a regiment or 2 from the period, maybe a short skirmish, or at least something to play off each other. Site was great, i think the museum did really well with the physical facilities. The portaloos were phenomenal. Catering was also excellent, but come on.. Bud???? All in all a damn good first time out. I want to see it continue, we need a northern pirate gathering. Hawkyns