Hawkyns

Well, I am still in an organisation. I'm a member of the Royal Irish Artillery, which as a unit is a member of the British Brigade. Being there lets me get my fix of large scale battles. I don't have to hold my own insurance, come up with a sixpounder plus transport and crew for it, or deal with organisers as an individual. As a unit, we form a commisary for musters so that we don't have to do all our own cooking but can share the duties. We have a section of the tent line, so that we don't have to go looking for camp space when we go to a battle. Most major battles and sites don't allow individuals or 'walk ons' as they are known, so I get to play at Fort Ticonderoga or Monmouth Battlefield. Blackwell's Regiment, which was my ECW regiment was the Third Company of the Regiment, the first two companies of which were based in England. We operated independantly on this side of the pond, but when going to England it ensured that we were allowed to participate in their battles and gave us a 'home' across the pond. It is no longer an active unit due to the fact that people moved due to jobs, and the fact that ECW waned seriously after the 350th. I think the solution is that those of us who do believe in the idea of an umbrella organisation should form it and work with it. Freebooters can then see our benefits and decide for themselves if it is worth it. The biggest question for me would be whether we formed it as individuals or as crews. I'd vote for joining as individuals. That would give us the protection and, hopefully, insurance, and still leave our individual impressions in our own hands. Hawkyns

I also the think the 'rushing into things' comment is a bit off. This may be new in the pyrate world, but it's an old idea in the rest of the reenactment community. It may take a bit of getting used to for some who have always operated as indivdual freebooters, but it normal for those of us who have been around the block a few times. Why reinvent the wheel? Like others, I think this is entirely dependant on what you want to do. As an individual, you may decide that you don't need any such organisation to show up at a faire or festival, wear your kit, and do whatever you do at these things. If, on the other hand, you wish to be a part of it, fire your pieces, fight others, and generally be more than a spectator in kit, the organisation would be to your benefit. If nothing else, it could provide a level of organisation and communication so that we know what specs any given venue has, and eliminate people showing up with the wrong expectations. Hawkyns

Exactly, Sterling. Groups change and hive off from each other at a regular rate. It's a common thing in other periods. A few guys in a unit will get an idea to do something else, but the unit as a whole doesn't want to. Those guys split off and form the nucleus of another unit. It's a normal part of the expansion process. Alternatively, the unit will decide to do something and a couple of people decide it's not what they want to do or its too much trouble or whatever. They will either drop out or find another unit more to their liking. This is normal evolution in most reenactment groups. In the pyrate world it can be driven by the latest movie to come out or the latest shipwreck find. Some people change units like others change their socks. Some have been with their unit since it's inception and will be there when the nail the box shut. I'm not seeing a problem with this. To avoid improving our situation (not neccesarily our impression, but the level at which we interact with the mundane world) because some people see it as giving up freedom, seems unneccesarily self destructive. Hawkyns

Well, actually, no. Pollywood as we use it came into being because we saw too many renfaire pirates with stuffed parrots attached to their shoulders... Hawkyns

Agreed, Dutch. Playing the authentic game and keeping up on the paperwork has got me into places that most folks never get to. When you can discuss this on an equal level with museum directors, and 'walk the walk', as well, it goes a very long way to gaining their respect and cooperation. I would say that the same probably exists for those who are at the top of their game with the street artists and performers, in regard to faire directors and organisors. I guess 'elite' in this case means those who have taken the extra steps to gain their patrons' respect and thereby moved this to a higher level than just weekend hobby. Hawkyns

Jessi, I think you are reading too much into what I'm saying. (One of the reasons I hated psych) I read what's on the surface and what is said, not what might be behind it. I use pollwood as a term to describe pirates whose research and persona comes from popular culture, not as a putdown. I've always said that there is a place for everyone in this hobby, whether it's staffing a museum replica ship, or just going to your buddy's pirate costume party. As far as the faire pirates who roll from pub to pub, I know many of them, both from MDRF and NYRF. I'm fairly active up and down the northeast, and I know who is out there. It's a fact that there are many who I do not see outside those venues. There are some who extend beyond that and many more who do not. That's fine. Nobody is saying they have to do more. But the fact remains that there are 'names' out there who everyone recognises and who are seen to be leaders in their part of This Thing That We Do. They are elites, and will always be recognised as such by those of us who are active at this year round. On the continuum, there will always be people who are between the two ends. How far one progresses towards the elite end will always be a personal choice, but it will also always be a determinant when people look at us and rate us. And that is something that people do, like it or not. Some people can take the criticism of being called a stitch nazi or Jack sparrow wannabe, some can't. Some people take umbrage at the most polite suggestion, others ask to be critiqued down to the underwear. I take people as they are and treat them as I find them. I long ago gave up being PC to spare people's feelings. I've no doubt it has alienated a few over the years. I also know it has created a circle of friends (more like family) who have similar attitudes. I don't offer unasked for help, but I also don't ignore what is wrong for the venue. if that is the elitist attitude that some are talking about so be it, but to back off on the search for excellence because some don't like it does no service to anyone. Hawkyns NB- This comes across as harsh, and directed at you Jessi. It is not and is not meant to be. But parsing words is not what I am known for. It is simply how I feel, using the best terms I know. Hawkyns

Wow, I missed most of that, but then I flunked Psych 101 In Defence of Elitists. I'm still of the opinion that we need the elite groups. Being elitist has never been a bad thing for me. Not in the sense of looking down on others, but in being top of the game. My impressions, all of them, are not static. I've got boxes full of kit that was purchased as being top of the line at the time, but has been superceded by better research or better production. To my mind, it's being an elitist that makes me spend my time poring over archeological journals and reports, wills, and period government documents. These groups are the ones that get called when History Channel needs somebody or when a museum is liikng for something special. Now let me put it in another sense. All elite groups are not historical elite groups. There are elite groups that specialise in street theater, playing to the crowds. I could never do that. But there are times when that is needed too, parades for instance, and fundraisers. Put me in front of a couple of five year olds and I don't know what to do. I can't relate to them on an intellectual level, so I have no point of reference. The kids are bored, the parents are miffed, and we've just lost the audience. It takes a specialised type of person to do that, another kind of elite, if you will. Look, we're never going to bridge the divide between historical and pollywood pirates. We all do our thing. But to assume that elite means putting someone down because they are not stitched up right is a bad assumption. It is just someone who is at the top of their game, either as a historical interpreter or a street player. There are some (many?) who do not aspire to either group. They go to the renfaires in whatever their kit is and spend the day doing the pub crawl. They interact mostly within their own group and that's fine for them. They are not interested in how the public sees them or even how other pyrates see them. That's fine. Without them, there would be no dividing line to separate the elitists. Hawkyns

Let's see, I started reenacting back in 1980, doing WWII. Brit Commando first, then switching over to Waffen SS. Got hooked up with 30 Years War in 85 then modified that to English Civil War in 87. Stayed with that as a unit commander until 2005, when we disbanded. Still get the lads together occasionally, but not as a full time unit. For a few years in there around 97, I did American Civil War in the 8th Texas Cavalry. On and off did some Frog and Savage and then joined the Rev War Royal Irish Artillery 2 years ago. I do a lot of Elizabethan Border Reiver these days. Pyracy, I've been doing on and off for about 8 years. I do it either as one of Drake's seadogs, or in the GAoP. I think it was because I did WWII first that I got hooked on the harsh authenticity. You have to there, there are still people around who lived it to tell you what you did wrong. Not to mention, lots of original kit and lots of documentation. I carried that attitude since then. I don't need the public, not at all. I do this for my own reasons, to escape the 21st C, to find out how our ancestors lived, and to indulge my love of early weaponry. Find me fire, a pint of cider, and a period song or two,put me in period kit with a musket and sword nearby and I have all the reason I need to do this. On my own, with a group of the lads, or even with an audience of mundanes, it doesn't matter, I'll be happy. I can deal with the mundane audience better than I can deal with an inaccurate reenactor. I know the danes are out of place, so I can ignore them. When I see somebody who is a participant, though, who is in some manner out of place in their kit, it jars the mind. I have much more trouble ignoring it, can't tell you why. So I try and stay witin my own circle whenever possible. Hawkyns

Michael, I'm a member of the Royal Irish Artillery, which is part of the British Brigade. We have our own standards, our own operations manual, and our own chain of command. We determine our promotions and staff level, noone else. The Brigade is useful for 3 things. First, it determines which will be the official BB events for the year. That ensures maximum participation and a good crowd. Second, it provides a uniform set of safety rules, so that we can all play together without people getting hurt. Third, it provides a central clearing house for people to find regiments and see who is close to them and what they do- sort of a universal recruiter. Each regiment maintains it's own standards and it's own website. Now, I will say that at an official BB event, there is a minimum authenticity standard that you must attain in order to be able to participate. At individual regimental events, that standard reverts to the regiments. Most regiments do carry their own insurance. For the pyrate community, that can be an issue becuase there are not generally enough in any given crew to spread the cost to a doable level. And that insurance is going to become more and more of an issue, since the whole healthcare/liability debate currently going on is going to come down to the sites. They are going to want individual groups to insure themselves, rather than be covered under site insurance. We are already seeing that in some areas. Sites won't pay the additional cost to cover us, and won't take the liability. Each crew is going to be classed as a subcontractor. So if we want to continue firing muskets and cannon, and cutlass fighting, we are going to need some way to cover ourselves, without adding huge amounts of cost to the individual. It ain't nice, it ain't a pyraty attitude, but it is the real world of liability that we have to operate in. Hawkyns

OK, Looks interesting. Might well be able to bring the sutlery down. Can we have some more detail if any is available? Actual location, sutler fees, attendee fees, etc.? What weapons to be allowed? Blackpowder OK? Permits needed? Thanks, Hawkyns

The Brotherhood of the Blade - A Lord John Grey Novel by Diana Gabaldon Great mid 18th century stuff, centered around Lord John Grey. Deals with gays in London, military society stuff, and the Seven Years War, all as they relate to Lord John Grey. This is a spin off from the Outlander series which follows a woman plucked from the 20th century and deposited in Scotland, just before Culloden, and her subsequent life in the 18th century. Unfortunately, they are frequently classed as bodice rippers, which they most certainly are not. Hawkyns

Good and happy day t'ye, Mate. And many more!! Hawkyns

Happens all the time. Most military reenactors call them tacticals. They are not scripted, there is no set outcome and there are rarely any spectators. Can be anything from an afternoon get together to something like the one they run on Lake George for the F&I folks. 4 days, scouting, fighting, camping and you are tactical for the entire time. Your camp can be attacked at any hour, day or night, they use ambushes, skirmishes, anything that you might have seen in the 1750's in the region. Including boats on the lake. Treks are another form. A bunch of guys get together and go into the woods for a day or a few days. Maybe you hunt for dinner, maybe it's just a backpacking trip with period kit and guns. Very common. Or they'll take canoes down a stretch of wilderness river. Rendezvous are another variation. People get together and live the period for a few days. Instead of battles, they have target shooting and axe throwing competitions. Traders set up and there is period shopping and trading. Or, as I said, some of us will get to move into a living history village for a few days. We become the inhabitants and do all the things that would be neccesary to keep a village going. None of these require spectators and many of them do not allow them. We are out there to perfect our skills and to learn to appreciate the life of our ancestors. After a few days, or even a couple of weeks with no electricity, no phones, no computers and no modern distractions, you really get to appreciate the simple life. What I haven't seen yet is something like this for the pyrate community. Partially, it's because we don't have the type of events that would lend themselves to that sort of thing. We can have a drunken carrouse anywhere, but where can we actually set up a carreening camp with an actual ship to work on and all the tasks that need doing. also, we are so fragmented that we we don't have an overall organising body that could set something like this up. Even without the ship, a large camp would require logistics, front money, and probably insurance. Sometimes, our independant attitude works against us. Hawkyns

It's not really another direction. These are things that affect our interpretation and authenticity. Children are always an issue. I've seen the gamut, from 3 week olds who are in period kit, and who never have anything but wooden, period toys as they grow up, to the kids whose parents won't separate them from their modern toys and electronics. My experience (and we have had several kids in the regiment) is that the ones who are as immersed as the parents adapt better and generally make better kids, especially if it is started early. They are more likley the ones who are considered to be part of the regiment, considered and treated more like short adults than kids. The ones who are given options to bring modern stuff are the ones who have the most trouble being parted from it when it does become neccesary. They are also the ones not likely to stay around when they become teens. Treat them as a functional part of the unit from the word go, expect the same standards of them, and don't treat them like kids. It worked well for us. Medical issues are another point to consider. One of our camp followers had severe carpal tunnel syndrom and had to wear a brace, 24/7. I worked with her and made a brace out of leather and brass that buckled on and gave her the same support as her plastic one that she wore through the week. Eyeglasses can be replaced by contacts or by early style eyeglasses that are available. Meds are easy to conceal in a period tin in a haversack or ditty bag. Even crutches can be made to a period pattern, as one of our lads did when he lost his foot in a motorcycle accident. (no, he did not stop turning out). the one thing I have not yet figured out how to deal with is the C-pap. the noise through the night can be very disconcerting for the tents around. Fortunately, it's only an issue for us, not for the public. You can work around anything. Many of the problems were the same for period folks, so it's easy to use the same remedies they did. For the more modern stuff, it takes a bit of research and some roundabout thinking to come up with something that's not out of place. Hawkyns

Back a bunch of years ago, we did an ECW battle at Marrietta Mansion in MD. My lads (Blackwell's Regiment) decided to make things a bit more realistic and have some fun with the crowd at the same time. Our regimental surgeon set up just inside the barriers with some of his instruments. As the battle progressed, one of the lads took a hit. As he went down, he burst a blood pack under his doublet. A couple of the others hauled him over to the surgeon, where they held him down. The surgeon dug in the bloody shirt and doublet with forceps and pulled out a musket ball. Under the blood pack was a piece of soaking wet sole leather. Surgeon pulls out the bullet, clang! into the tin basin, pulls out the cautery from the charcoal burner and presses it onto the wet leather. Lots of steam, smell of burning flesh, and Wylie is writhing and screaming like a madman. Lots of white faces among the crowd, 2 or 3 running away, and they got a lot better idea of the reality of the battlefield. Hawkyns

If that's what they are doing, then they are doing it wrong. First person interpretation means seeing, reacting, and talking as they would have. Long declamations on what they are doing and why and how it is different is as out of place as bucket top boots in the rigging. You just do what you are supposed to be doing, not sitting at a table explaining. That's not to say that you won't occasionally find a spectator with a clue that you can have a period conversation with. I recall a long, in persona conversation with a tourist about the religious differences in the ECW. we must have talked for 20 minutes, him supporting the puritan cause and me supporting the King. But such things are rare. Hawkyns

I've done 17th century living history from all angles. I've been to England and particpated in the big battles and parades with several hundred people. By being part of the larger group and following their rules, I've marched down the Mall from the Palace through Horseguards and taken the salute of the mounted troops there. That was a kick I'll never forget. I've been able to actually live in the villages at Plimoth and Jamestown by being hardcore and following their standards. I've also lived in the village at Salem, MA and been one of only 4 people there for an event and still had a great time. It comes down to what the organiser is comfortable with and what they consider to be a success. I don't need the large groups to do this, and, frequently, neither do the sites. 2 or 3 people doing it right, even if the public numbers are low, is still a win to many of them. It doesn't even have to be a major event. Just a regular weekend, with nothing special planned works fine. I got to live in one of the cottages and spend a few days living like a colonist would have. Up at dawn, make breakfast on the fire, muck out the sheep and goat pens, feed the animals, spend the day making fences with axe and brushhook, spend the evening around the fireplace with a couple of like minded friends and a pipe and a cider or two. Not a shot fired, probably no more than 30 people all weekend. But we got to live the period. It all depends what you are looking for. If lots of people and excitement or a battle are what you are looking for, then it is probably easier to find such events and the standards will probably be more relaxed. If you are truly looking for living history and wish to really experience the period, then an extremely high level of authenticity will get you into the smaller, more intimate sites, where the anomalies will show up much more easily. The standard I've always worked with is that if the time machine ever became available, could I go back o the period and not be noticed as being out of place in any detail. If I do this on my own, see not another person for 2 or 3 days, but live within the perameters of my persona, I've succeeded in my immediate goal. Michael, you know from the other board we are on what the trekking mentality is, live on your own hook, with no more than period technology for days at a time. That's the standard I bring to pyracy. No, it's not for everybody and it should not be. We need the other types of sites and events to form our gene pool. If we get one percent of those people to join us on the dark side, I'd consider it a success. But when we go for a major living history event, it is that one percent that we need. Then we can truly get closer to showing the life of the period. (Hurricane, I agree with you. The modern ideas of what is acceptable public behaviour are ridiculously uptight. For years, my dream has been of an adults only event where, other than actual crime, we can act as they would have. To get enough like minded people together who are willing to go along with it, is, to my deep disapointment, unlikely.) Hawkyns

Since this has changed drastically, I've split the new topic off into Philosophy of Authenticity. Hawkyns

That would be my answer, in general. We use the pirate festivals, the ren faires, and the SCA as our recruiting grounds. We maintain historically accurate portrayals and camps in these areas. We show people that doing it right is fun, and there are more fun toys and places to play, if you have accuracy behind you and the support of the museums. Hopefully, we will keep enough interest to get people involved with our side of the hobby. It one of the reasons I lament the decline of the press gang. 17th century has been in decline for a few years. Mostly, it was being held together by the English Civil War folks. We had a great run through the 90's, in the run up to the 350th anniversary of the Martyrdom of Charles. It's been fading since then, and there is a fairly diverse group out there now. Some of us are doing very early, even back into Drake's era. There are some doing ECW still, more doing restoration, and not a few dealing with the Pequot Wars and the 17th C colonial period, as well as the GAoP living historians. We used to all get together at St Mary's City for the 17th C Muster, but that has also been declining, due to site rules, an over reliance on the same old competitions, and moving the date around. One of the great things to come out of the the Hudson 400 this past weekend was were ideas to re-enrgize 17th c and get it rolling again. Hawkyns

That's a debate that is going on in very period right now. We are losing the younger generation because they find it easier and more comfortable to find their escape fantasy on line, rather than in a leaky tent. More and more of the guys in the field are greybeards, people who have been doing this for 20 years or more. It may be that living history, at least in some periods, is in a terminal decline. That then begs the question- how much do we dilute history, dumb it down in my words, to attract new people?Is it fair to the people we are recreating, to the museums who allow us to play, to the public who come to see us, and to those who have put in the time to reduce standards to the point that anyone can play? Who will care if that buccaneer has a Springfield instead of a club butt musket? Who will really know? Will the public really care if Thomas Tew is wearing drop fall breeches instead of French fly? A white nylon hunters tent is so much easier to care for than canvas, and it looks the same, right? Where do we start drawing that line? That is one of the slipperiest slopes out there, one that I don't believe we should put a toe onto, never mind a step or two. Hawkyns

Well, I was going to drop this subject, but I think you have a legit question that deserves an answer. When I go to a period that I am interested in, but have not done before, I go in mundane kit as a spectator. I talk to the people who are there, ask who has been doing it longest, find out who the unit commanders are, and determine their kit standards. I'll also go to my library, go on line, and find out what the common garb for the period is. In short, research. The old standby is, for every hour in the field, 10 hours in the library. All of this will tell me how much of my kit will transfer over, what specific items I need to acquire, and what can be slid or disguised. Then, I am ready for the next event, when I can turn out, or I can say that it requires too much effort and/or money and this might not be a period that I can make a legit impression for. This is all for living history, let me say, not pirate events. When you start down the living history road, the first thing to acknowledge is that you have become a defacto teacher. Everyone who sees you will interpret what you do and say, and how you act, to be indicative of the period you are portraying. Every glitch, every wrong comment, every piece of kit that is out of place will be noticed by somebody. It may result in people laughing at you, or some kid learning something the wrong way that will come back to haunt them. The worst is finding a member of the public who knows more than you do who will call you on the mistake. That can be embarrasing in the extreme. It can also lead to museum directors taking you off their invite list. Yes, there's a huge difference between living history and pirate festivals. It takes much more time, money, and commitment. It is not something that should be done as a one off, or without suitable prep. To do so is unfair to the organisers, the public, and the living historians that have put in the time and effort to do it right. Hawkyns

Interesting point, and yes, I have considered moving it. It does sort of skirt the authentic/non authentic, so I haven't moved it, but if people wish that, it can be done easily. Hawkyns

Yeah, but I'm hardcore, you know that Mark. I play from 1580 to 1780, 5 major periods, 5 different sets of kit, including weapons. BUT it's taken me 30 years to get to that point, and my kit still changes as new information and sources become available. If they are young and have limited resources, then concentrate on the one period and don't try crossing periods until you can get the kit to match the venue. I guess I hark back to one of the first times we met, back at Plimoth, what '88 or so?. I've been using their ideas as a base for my standard since then. Took me 10 years to get to that point, and the progression has continued since then. So yeah, I'm harsh when I look at other kit, especially when they are cross timing. They're young, no great hurry. Take it slow, concentrate on one thing and get it right, before starting the next, and then put the same effort in before you take it into the field. Hawkyns

I ran into these guys this past weekend at the Half Moon 400th Anniversary event. I've seen them before and been a bit skeptical, but this past weekend I was definitely unimpressed. The date on the event was 1609 for ship activities, and 1650 for onshore militia activities. My opinion is that they were out of place. Garb was too late period and not representative of either the Dutch sailors or the colonists. Wrong cut, wrong silhouette and wrong colour. They were wearing the same thing I've seen at 18th C events. It did not help when, on Sunday morning, they tied one of their number to a modern lamppost with some sort of sign attached to him. Whatever else, this was NOT a pirate event and that sort of thing should not have been happening. There seems to be a pattern of excusing them because they are young and we need new members in the hobby. They should still have to conform to all the standards and practices. Hawkyns

Maybe it's because I'm Luddite and proud, but I think things work just fine as they are. The higher tech it gets, the more confused I get and the less I use things. Hawkyns