Hawkyns

Interesting that you say that. My persona is not GAoP, but that of a Border Reiver recruited by Drake and the Earl of Cumberland to serve in Elizabeth's navy. So uh, yeah, the Rough Wooing is sort of part of who I am Hawkyns

OK, Mission, fair point. I do have definition of reenactor. That does not apply to all. There are other groups that have their own definitions. Let me emphasizeTHIS IS MY OPINION AND THAT OF A BUNCH OF LIKE MINDED INDIVIDUALS, IT IS NOT PUB POLICY Reenactor- one who is concerned with the history of the past, and wishes to be as accurate as possible. Recreationist- one who like the general idea of the past, but is willing to make compromises and is less concerned with accuracy Faire or Festival Patron- someone who likes the various attitudes and some of the garb and fashion, but is more into the fun than the research. Fantacist- one who takes a basic theme of a period and adds to it out of their own imagination or other fantasy literature. There is room for all, and all have their place. Not all will get along with each other in the same place. Hawkyns

Well, if there is 'divisive and hurtful language', which I certainly don't see, it would be generally a result of frustration. Someone asks us a question. We answer it based on known fact. They don't like the answer, so repost the question, hoping to get a different answer. We repeat the answer. The questioner gets upset , calls us uptight thread counters and we respond in kind. Or, someone asks us a question couched in terms of "this is what I think, don't you all agree with me". When we respond in the negative, the name calling starts. I have NEVER seen any of the regulars on this forum intentionally insult or put down someone for asking a question. Also, as I say, to participate in a forum of this type, you nedd a pretty tough hide. Indeed, I think that can be said of reenactors in general. Speaking personally, I don't sugarcoat, stroke egos, or care about being PC. That is not insulting or a putdown, I just state facts. Most of my friends and colleagues are the same. Could this be an issue of people who are more used to the kind of 'nice' conversation more prevalent in some areas of society? I will now state a great heresy, for which I expect to be roundly chastised. Not everyone is cut out to be a reenactor. It's a rough game, and not for the squeamish or sensitive. Yeah, that makes me an elitist bastard who is not inclusive. Hawkyns

Vintage, a lot of that is because there is not so much information of pyracy from other countries. Certainly not in languages that most of us can read, anyway. Example- I am heavily involved in the Elizabethan fencing world. For years, we have spoken about 4 or 5 sources from outside England, even though there are many. It is only now, 20 plus years after we got involved in this, that some of these other manuals are being translated. If we can't readthem, we can't discuss them. Jessie- I view this forum in an academic sense. We look at the facts, view the artifacts, and make assumptions. Educated assumptions, backed by a lot of verbage, but assumptions, nonetheless. Have you ever dealt with the academic world of history and archeology? They make our discussions here look like a church picnic. A good friend once opined to me that in the forum, there are a couple of dozen people that are effectively doing experimental archeology on a doctoral level. We have all the standard and non standard sources available, we haunt the museums to see the inside of artifacts, and we wait anxiously for the next scholarly work to be published. That may or may not be true, but it certainly puts our discussions in a different light. And, let it be said, we enjoy those discussions, even when we are pulling apart each others theories. No Twill is not for everyone, especially when we get our teeth into an idea, especially if people have a thin skin. we will answer any question to the best of our ability. But people shouldn't get mad at us when the reality does not meet with their fantasy, and that is when the problems start. Hawkyns

Ah yes, 'puritan' clothing. The popular idea of puritan clothing is a Victorian fantasy. They may have worn slightly darker clothing, and a bit less ornamentation, but other than that, the puritans did not dress differently from the rest of the population. What you are looking for for that period, then, is probably lower to lower middle class of the English Civil War period, 1640's and 50's, which might have been around a bit longer on the lesser sort. Not long though, becuase fashion is fashion and humans are humans. They would ape their betters as much ansd as soon as they could. there was also a thriving market in used clothing, so things would make their way through the levels of society fairly easily. In terms of the picture that started this, the 1645 doublet would be a little less fitted, would have a slightly lower waist, and instead of the peplum, 4 or 5 tabs perhaps 6 inches wide and 4 inches deep. Here is a site with a lot of photos of reenactors from the period. Their research is pretty spot on, so this is the sort of thing you would be looking at. You'll also see a lot of soldier's or sack coats, which would be a workman's type of coat and, especially for the lower sort, be very common. This type of coat lasted right into the 19th century for agricultural workers. http://www.siegegroup.co.uk/ Hawkyns

Back in about '87, we went to a time line at the LHA in Vermont. Usual collection of groups, Roman, SCA, ECW, F&I, Rev War and WWII. And one other. Vietnam. Now, this wasn't the normal type of reenactment, where we all play the part of someone from the past, this was a group of VN vets who liked it so much they wanted to keep it going. They had their uniforms, a bunch of their weapons, camp kit etc., and they also had a table full of NVA souvenirs. Some bloodstained. Not to mention a photo album of these guys standing next to NVA bodies. We asked them to leave. Now, depending on how you define it, you couldn't get more accurate. Actual equipment, uniforms, the works. Photo documentation, paperwork, anything you could wnat to be 100% authentic. Elite, in that sense of the word. But the attitude was just so far out there, that we couldn't deal with it, or find a way to present this to the public that would be acceptable. I guess this would be a similar situation to us actually having pirate attitude. Might be fun for us, but the organisers of the event, not to mention the local gens d'armes would definitely get their knickers in a twist. I suppose that is a partial reason why we obess so much over the physical details. Most of us that frequent this forum want to get as close to the originals as we can. Where we are stymied in the actions, we make up for it in the kit. Hawkyns

Tim Hart and Maddy Prior - The Dalesman's Litany http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0O-5Q0STG8&feature=PlayList&p=24EE70C64F87FB02&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=12 From Hull and Halifax and Hell Good Lord Deliver Me Hawkyns

You, sir, are a heretic. Remind me to shoot you at Lock House. Hawkyns

Ransom, I do it for two reasons. First, I really do like to pul things apart until I find out how they work and why they were done that way. Ihave not seen all extant items, so others may have seen something different and it all adds to the bdoy of knowledge. Second, It keeps me busy while I'm waiting to go to a muster or event. If I actually had to live in the 21st century full time, I'd lose what little mind I have left. Hawkyns

Ya really gotta wonder at some people. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/movies/2010021075_ladywashington08m.html Hawkyns

Rene, you are looking at the Restoration Period. Drastically different from the doublet in the first post. After the end of the Commonwealth period in England, and the recovery after the 30 Years War in Europe, clothing became very elaborate. Pretty much a celebration that they no longer needed to be worries about everything. Large amounts of fabric, lace and ribbon everywhere. The doublets were longer and less fitted, much more in line with what would become the 18th century style after the early extravagance wore off. Here is a basic primer: http://www.cwu.edu/~robinsos/ppages/resources/Costume_History/restoration.htm Hawkyns

Yes. I have a similar doublet that I have worn at both. Mine has 8 small tabs at the waist insted of the peplum, but otherwise it is the same. The tabs have not yet lessened in number and grown in size as they will by the ECW. Hawkyns

Lots. A whole bloody library of them. What are you looking for? The 17th C is a very diverse century, from Elizabethan at the begining to what is demonstrably 18th C at the end. Lots of civilian and military change. Where and when are you looking at? Hawkyns

It's called a doublet. They existed in simlar form from about the last quarter of the 16th century to the middle of the 17th. Minor differences in size and shape of the peplum or replacing it with multiple small tabs, but basically the same shape. From the evident puckering at the closure, I would say it is closed with hooks and eyes, fairly common for the period. It could also be closed with multiple small buttons and inch or so apart, or even, for some of the lower classes, tape strings. The style is pretty much the same for most of northwest Europe over the period. http://www.lepg.org/men.htm Hawkyns

No, but experience counts, just like in any shooting sport. I would not take a crew that has not worked together before to the line. I add new people one at a time to experienced crews. It's fine until the battery is crashing around you and you can't tell which captain is yelling command, and you can't see more than 20 feet ahead, and then the adrenaline kicks in. It's easy to get confused and to get ahead of yourself and miss steps. Prime a piece before it is pricked. Load a cartridge with the nipple in instead of out. Don't seat a cartridge fully. Seen all that and more stuff besides. It's not when things are going well that you need the experience, it's when things go buggered up in a hurry. Just in case you guys didn't see this from the other thread. http://www.poststar.com/articles/2009/10/02/news/local/doc4ac659bec8abb651820875.txt Hawkyns

That is one hell of a can of worms........ Yes, garb is only one facet of what we do. Weaponry- carrying the right piece for the time period. Is it real? Can you actually use it? Camp- can you live period in a canvas tent without modern bed and bedding, without modern camp stove, without modern lighting? Skills- can you do any of the other things that would be required of a seaman or even a landsman of the period? General knowledge- do you know who your king is, who signs your papers, how much is money worth, can you idnetify various types of ships? Mindset- can you think and speak as your persona (probably the hardest of the lot)? There is much more to historical reenacting than just putting on the clothes. Hawkyns

I wear wooden shoes all the time, especially in the middle of the night or first thing in a morning for a trip to the jakes across the wet grass. "With all due respect, this appears a thread whose only intent is to disparage reenactors with an interest in authenticity."- Quartermaster James Agreed, Quartermaster. Hawkyns

I7th century flasks were made of horn, among other things, but did not take the same form as the 18th century common american horn. The 17th c horn ones were generally flattened and had a spring loaded cover to the opening. The trapezoidal flask was also very popular in the first half of the century Horns were also frequently made from stag or elk horn. Hawkyns

Jessi- where do get the idea that I hate Jack Sparrow? I have all 3 movies, just watched #3 on Saturday. I also like Cutthroat Island and Swashbuckler, among others. What I hate is the effin lack of imagination that manifests itself. Bloody hell, can't people think beyond making a cookie cutter image of someone else? We have 140 years of the era where pirates were a big thing, we have 5 continents and 3 oceans and multiple seas. There is a body of pirate literature, both accurate and fantasy, tha is enough to fill a library of it's own. And all people can bloody well do is dress up like somebody else. It doesn't have to be authentic , it doesn't have to be perfect for something like this, but can't it at least be different? Hawkyns

Yeah, I know Hurricane. I'm already considering getting a prozac drip for the week . The clothing issue is what it is. Two years ago at MDRF we had, on the same day, 19 different Jack Sparrows. Goddess knows what else we saw out there on Pirate Invasion. So I'm kind of ready for that. The problem with authenticity standards when it comes to an overall pirate festival is that any kit is good, from the Phoenicians to current day Somali. We all know what we think is pirate , but that is really up in the air depending on what period you are taking on. I still have not decided whether to come down for PiP in GAoP kit or with my Elizabethan Seadog kit, especially since I am now reproducing items from the Mary Rose for the sutlery. Remember that this discussion sprang from discussion of a historical venue with a very specific year and culture. that is where standards need to be hard and fast. The thought occurs to me of a rating for crews or people. "Museum Approved" "Street Performer" "Weapons Specialists" and so on. That way both recruits coming in and people looking to have us at their festivals know what they are getting into. Safety is my big candy coloured button. One of the first cannon courses I took back in the 80's was taught by a one armed gunner. For those of you who remember, he was involved in the accident that shut down the LaPann gun foundry. For me, there is no good enough, or it will be OK, or any second string. You are on the mark, up to date, properly trained and equipped or you are not on the line, period. Powder is kept under lock and key, alcohol is not consumed until the powder is finished with and locked away, guns have full crews, safety distances are covered and understood, crews have received proper training, and all guns are inspected and properly equipped. No exceptions. Nobody trains under fire, nobody gets to walk on. Yeah, I'm the hardest of hardasses when it comes to this. Hawkyns

Standards for authenticity are going to vary by what the focus of the group or individual are. If, like me, you are interested in hardcore living history and museum standard, then you take your documentation from extant items, primary source documents, and paintings of the period. If your focus is street theater to entertain the punters, then you are probably going to go with the image of pirates from popular culture. If you are just out for a good time for yourself, and have no need to please anyone else, your standard will be whatever the hell you want it to be. The insurance issue is getting a bit twisted. It should not be linked with kit standards, because they are variable, as stated above. I would say that it should be linked with a safety standard for blackpowder and for swordplay. One of the frustrating things that I find is that when I go to various events, I'd love to cross blades with some of the other folk there. Problem is, we're so damned insular that no two groups are playing the same game, using the same type of weapons, or having the same goal. A set safety and practice document could put us all on the same page and enable us to play with each otherwithout killing or maiming each other, at the same time that it gives us cover. Blackpowder is even worse. I've been owning and firing cannon for 25 years. Pyrates are, without exception, the worst at drill and safety that I've ever seen. No standard drill, no standard safety protocols, no way for two crews to work a line and be doing the same thing. I've known two gunners who lost their hands in accidents. I've heard rumours of other accidents in recent pyrate history. I've had to shut down lines when crews showed up without enough people, gun tools, or safety equipment. This is the sort of standard that should be worked into an umbrella organisation. It lets us know who is safe to play with and who isn't, and lets venues know which groups will put on a safe show. Hawkyns

Interesting point. While they may not all be pirate events, between pirate, Elizabethan, Rev War, and the occasional Frog and Savage event, I'm under canvas at least 3 weekends out of 4 between March and Novemeber. That number will probably increase this year as I add some southern events to the schedule. Hawkyns

In my mind it comes down to professionalism. Those of us who want to do more and be more understand that there are costs involved with that. Costs that are both financial and restrictive. That applies whether you are running a full scale sea battle between ships, a sword circle, or interactive street theater. Being just somebody in pirate kit is not enough for me. If I class myself as a 16th or 17th century sea gunner, it is important to me that I actually have as many of the skills as I can to support that. Just saying it is not enough, I have to be able to prove it, to myself and others. In order to do that, I have to participate in activities that are dangerous to both myself, the crew around me, and the spectators. In order for venues to allow me to do that, they want more than my handshake to prove I know what I am doing. Insurance, qualifications, standards- all of these speak to the mundane risk analysts that I am not some yahoo with a cutlass and a pistol that is likely to sink their ship when I fire a broadside. If somebody is going to do street theater with little kids, they want to be sure that the pirate is not a pedophile or likely to somehow injure the kids while fooling around. They want to be able to point to some group that has connections with other sites that can say "Yeah, we've worked with these guys and their organisation. they're OK." Hawkyns

As I'm seeing all of this, it reverts back to this morning's part of the discussion. The "elite" see the insurance and umbrella organisation as a good thing, because it opens up more venues and things to do. Others see it as a threat, since once we start doing things a bit more professionally, it could mean that to participate, rules would have to be followed. It could mean that we are looking at a divergence between the more accurate events with much participation, and the festival types, where many pyrates are little more than spectators in kit. Pay to play is always out there and it's never bothered me. I've been doing it as long as I've been reenacting, even the pyrate crew I've been working with charges dues to cover the insurance. Sometimes I pay a site fee as well. It doesn't bother me. I do this for me, so I expect to pay for the privilege of having fun, just as I would at an amusement park, campground, movie theater or anywhere else that I go to have fun. The crowd or the fact that the site gets more visitors because we are there does not affect my decision on this at all. Hawkyns

That may be a solution for you out in the midwest, where there are not so many venues that have a historical link, but it can be a problem for us out here. As we start to look at more and more historic sites- Fort Mifflin in Phiily comes to mind, a revwar fort (much modified) on the Delaware River that is reenactor friendly- and start to expand on the town Pirate Festivals, it becomes more of an issue. Same goes if we want to do anything at the major or minor renfests. It is all about what you want to do, as I said. If all you want to do is wander around in pirate garb, then insurance is an issue. If you want to get into more and more of the arts-ship, firearm, and sword- insurance is more and more neccesary. We are asked about it everytime we go out up here in New England. Hawkyns