Hawkyns

Thanks for clarifying that, Patrick. Got to admit I nearly spewed tea on the keyboard when I first read it. I think that people are getting this a bit backwards. We have to determine what the standards are first, and then jury to that standard. That ensures that everyone meets at least the minimum standard. Obviously there will be different opinions as to what that standard should be. I will always lobby for the high line, others will prefer a lesser bar. The consensus will be somewhere in the middle. But once we fix that bar, everyone in the camps MUST meet it. To address some of your specific concerns. The difference between cotton canvas and hemp canvas bothers me not at all and would make no difference in my jurying. hand stitching is great and preferred on all outer portions, but I don't care if the unseen assembly is machine. Gussets in shoulders is common, but I sincerely doubt that every single shirt pre 1740 had them, or that they were all attached in exactly the same size and manner. What I am concerend about, my hot buttons if you wish, are 1) no bucket top boots 2) no skull and bones everywhere 3) no fantasy weapons 4) no massive load of crap hanging from the belt 5) no horizontal striped socks 6) no skulls or skeletons around the camp 7) similar things that are obviously hollywood but 'generally accepted' among the pirate community. Someone who has obviously done the research and knows what they are looking for but has not got the minor details right yet is not a problem. People who take their documentation from penny dreadfuls and hollywood are. Hawkyns

OK, long and attempting to cover a number of subjects here, so ye be warned. Be warned also that these are my opinions and like as not will upset a few folks. Harry, I guess I see some contradictions in your post. You talk about being as authentic as possible, and setting standards, but not seeing jurying as the way to go. The problem with that is that it is easy for some people to read the standards and for them to say that they meet them. What happens when they show up at the gate and their interpretation of those standards is nowhere close to reality? Then what do we do? Accept them as making a good faith effort even though it spoils the work the people who really work to the standards have done? Toss them out, say you don't meet the standards, and cause more ill will? To me, it makes far more sense to submit photos in advance, then they can be critiqued and people told how to change their interpretation to meet waht we actually want to see. That way there are no hard feelings at the gate or when someone has a camp half set up and is told to strike it. Unlike ACW or F&I or Rev War, we have no governing body to specify the rules and no unit commanders that are responsible for ensuring that all members meet that standard. The pirate community is particularly lax in this area (I know, my opinion and I'm likely to be shot for it) and far too many people take their 'documentation' from Hollywood. I know if I go to a muster sponsored by the Forces of Montcalm and Wolfe exactly what I am expected to do, what my weapons rules are, and what kit standard I must maintain. If I go out with my trekking buddies, I know that everyone is on an extended search to be as authentic as possible and I don't have to worry about anything non period. When I go to a pirate gathering, I will see everything from hard core authentic kit, to sold off movie gear, to things like the above posted pic. I guess I see what we are doing here, both on the board and specifically at PiP as having the opportunity to be the gold standard for pirate re-enacting. By being hard core, and yes, elitist, we are making ourselves THE group to belong to. Going along with that, I would put in the standards right from the start. From my experience commanding a musketeer company of the ECWS, it is always easier to lighten the standards as research indicates, rather than make thing tougher as you go along. Once people get used to a lax standard, it is going to be a stone bitch to get them to buy new kit and upgrade existing kit. Greg- you said "But you still have to engage the other elements of "the hobby" too. We just can't say "no unauthentic ren-faire types" as they use the same money we do, and also help to drive foot-traffic." Thats a very slippery slope. As far as the paying punters, you can't control what they wear, that is a fact. On the other hand, how much leeway do you wnat to permit people who may not be in the authentic camp but are still 'participants"? At waht point do we lose the historical and become just another pirate ren faire? It seems that since PotC, most ren faires have become mini pirate festivals anyway. I think we need to distinguish and distance ourselves from these as much as possible. Finally, a question or two on the battle. Did I understand correctly that some people were brought out of the crowd to participate in the battle, people who were not part of the camps? That sounds like a recipe for disaster, if they are unfamiliar with black powder re-enactment safety rules. Which, by the way need to be decided on and published. Decisons like max charges, weapons inspections, rules for sword engagement, qualification standards, etc. Lastly, has any thought been given to encouraging Government forces from the period to become involved or even form units? The troops I saw in the picture looked to be attempting to be Rev War, but I'm not real sure. So there's my take on it. We all have a vision of this. I gues I'm leaning towards something more like the Market Faires at New Boston or Fort Frederick. Or perhaps the Grand Encampment of the French and Indian War. The Grand Encampment of the Pirates sounds like a winner to me. I will now brace up and await incoming fire. Hawkyns

Agreed on the ship names, lets drop the pollywood idea of being menacing in favour of being right. And i guess that brings up a question, for me anyway. Are we going to go the extra mile and actually jury the camps and people who live in them in advance, so that we are historically correct? That was one of the reasons I decided not to go this year, just too many questions about what would be happening. (That and the chance to live in the settlement at Jamestown for a few days at the same time as PiP). As far as dates, if we are sticking with GAoP, I would be in favour of keeping it looser- the 16xx to 17yy combination. Otherwise we are going to have a lot of people whose kit does not exactly match the dates being portryed. Hawkyns

Not that it helps you much, but my crew does it too. We're in southern New England. I have 3 AC swords, the Irish hilt backsword, the shell and ring hanger, and the protomortuary sword. Love them all, even if the backsword can damn near dislocate my shoulder on a full swing. I also have some lighter pieces that I use for steel combat. One is a shell guard cutlass from Darkwood Armoury. I have also taken a couple of double canelure blades from American Fencing Supply, shortened them, rounded the tips, and put them into more period hilts. They are good for people who can't swing the heavy blades about. Hawkyns

Agreed- the hilt style looks way too 18th c for what they are trying to repro. Just a bastardisation I guess, based on what everyone *thinks* a Scottish basket hilt looks like. BTW- this appears to be the same blade that I have on my shell guard cutlass that I bought from them 10 years ago or so. The blade is bloody monstrous. 5/16 at the spine of the ricasso and 2+ inches wide. anyone planning to actually swing this had better have damn strong wrists. I did if for a couple of batles when the SK came to the States, but I paid for it for a few days after. Hawkyns

http://www.merctailor.com/originals.php?original_pk=94 http://www.myarmoury.com/swor_pmc_sinc.html http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/baskethiltedswords.shtml http://www.merctailor.com/originals.php?original_pk=93 http://www.merctailor.com/originals.php?original_pk=95 http://www.merctailor.com/originals.php?original_pk=88 Here's an assortment of originals and good repros of the Sinclair Saber Hawkyns

Either lacing or, in some cases, large hooks and eyes. Chances are you would also have a sword girdle and something this fancy would have an officer's sash. Hawkyns

Still in use up into the Restoration period, so arguably into the early part of GAoP. Hawkyns

Not all of them. Dragoons and some mounted troops, certainly. But there were infantry officers who had them made of lighter leather for both fashion and general use. Having worn one of the lighter weight buff coats, they are great in the wind. On the other hand, one of my serjeants made a buff coat from some actual buff leather she acquired, oiled it properly with fish oil and coloured it with ochre. She wore it in a battle where it started to rain. By the end of it, she could barely stand up because of the weight. 1/4 inch thick leather that is oiled but not sealed soaks up water like a sponge. She was also an interesting shade of yellow....... Hawkyns

Barrell length does seem to be the determing factor, if anything can be said to be. The shorter ones are blunderbusses or coaching guns, while the longer ones, say a barrel over 20 inches, seem to be referred to as musketoons. That seems in accordance with the info listed in Dewitt Bailey's book on pattern dates for English muskets. Hawkyns

And what, pray, are all those strange clothes? Long doublets and oddly shaped hats.... Sorry folks- 1600 is the cut date. GAoP does nor belong at Pennsic. Hawkyns

OK, Hows this- I've been shooting blackpowder cannon for over 20 years. I'm a safety officer in two different organisations, I work with a number of museums and I am or have been involved with 7 major re-enactment organisations. I study modern methods and period techniques, have a huge library of artillery books, and am consulted by a number of groups. I would not permit this gun on any line or at any muster where I had anything to say about it, or any influence with the organisers. The problem is more than just about the immediate safety of the gun crew and nearby spectators. If it breaches, or chucks part of itself downrange, and anyone even *thinks* they've been hurt, the lawyers and the media will get involved. The headlines will read "homemade cannon self destucts" and every one of us who works with real cannon will be tarred with the same brush and impacted by the action. I'm sorry that you feel this is raining on your parade, but I feel it neccesary to stand up for all the artillerists of all periods who take this activity very seriously and hold to the greatest standards of safety. Hawkyns Master Gunner

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Hey Blackjohn tried to send you a PM but it says your mailbox is full and it won't accept it. need to contact you about MDRF Hawkyns

4 days from now I should be on the road, headin' west. Arrive just after midnight, get some zzzzzs and wait for dawn. I may be at work now, but my mind is at the corner of Agincourt and Tours. Hawkyns

Question from another list i'm on- does anyone have any primary source documentation of 18th c people, seamen or otherwise, wearing a headscarf under a tricorn? I looked through the sources so far and have not found anything. thanks, Guys Hawkyns

Right- now try climbing the rigging or climbing over the rail and not getting caught on the standing rigging. Swing on a boarding line and don't get hung up. Oh, and if you drop into the water, that 50 lbs will not help you swim or float. The pistols do not weigh the same as the real thing, they are considerably lighter and a completely different balance. Kukri? yes very period, but how did you get contact with Nepal? And as was noted on the other forum, the snap strap on the fantasy dagger is a bit much. It's a nice fantasy rig, and if that's what you are going for, fine. But i see no basis in reality. I've worked on board ships and there just is not the room or rigging free space to do something like this, especially on a small schooner or sloop, where much of the rail is taken up with standing rigging. Hawkyns

That may be part of the answer. I want my kit(s) to be correct because I will spend probably 40-45 weekends in them, plus weekday evenings, plus some longer encampments. I don't change out of them at 5 as the faire closes, I live in them for days at a time. I work cannons, in them, cook over a fire in them, stand watches on ships in them. All in all, I will probably spend nearly one third of the year in kit, so it has to be able to act as real clothing. Since I am performing the same tasks that were originally performed, it makes sense to me that the clothing that was originally designed and developed for the job is the best thing to wear. Hawkyns

I've been wtaching this one and I think Pearl has a good point. Above and beyond that, we seem to be indulging in a 21st c habit of trying to define everything to the nth degree. When do slops become pants, become wide breeches, become ?????. We are dealing with artistic license, cottage industry. availability of fabric, home made clothing, and many other varieables, and a very limited sample of extant garments, and not a particularly large sample of primary source art. I have to say that trying to pigeonhole this item to a specific pattern for a certain span of years seems to be an excersize in futility. We can all strive for accuracy as much as we want. Sometimes we will have good info, sometimes we won't. sometimes we will have to go with best guess/logical theory. But for anyone to say that any one idea is the only way is the height of arrgance, IMNSHO. Hawkyns

Understood about the mix when the public is there. Is it possible, though, to have standards and even (gasp) jurying for those who want to live in the fort? Hawkyns

Anybody going? Kathryn and I will be there Saturday http://vermontfestival.com/ Hawkyns

We will probably go the insurance route this year. I can get it through one of our local umbrella re-enactment groups, so it won't be too bad. We are far more in the living history/weapons demos/live steel combat game so as we do more pirate themed events, rather than museum re-enactments the insurance becomes more of an issue. It used to be that the sponsor of an event would get a blanket policy to cover all participants, but the cheap bastards are now expecting us to cover our own, rather than bringing us under their site insurance. I have been told, by some people that are in the industy, that the insurance industry is reducing the number of people covered under any one policy, in order to force more people to buy policies. This is to cover some of the huge losses from Katrina. I don't like doing the insurance game, and I certainly do it under protest. But as long as there are lawsuit happy morons out there, always looking for a way to blame someone else and make a buck off it, I seem to have no choice. Hawkyns

and yet another http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/boo...ads/chap99.html Hawkyns

Here's another http://www.contemplator.com/sea/mariners.html Hawkyns

Well. we're up to 5 of us so far. Should be a good time. BTW - the New Haven Register has a full page article today in the entertainment section on the movie. 2 pics of me and Francois, and one of Gwen, interspersed with the promo pics of Jack. Hawkyns