kass

THE EMPRESS Name: Catherine Grey Physical description: a woman "of a certain age" -- no longer in her first flower of youth, but certainly not yet past her prime -- tall (5'8"), dark haired, fair skinned Not much is known about The Empress' early life. She gained notice in the brothels of Covent Garden twenty years ago and has been talked about ever since. Some say she is the illegitimate child of an member of Charles II's court. Others say she is from the Continent -- France or Flanders -- although she maintains an upper-class English accent. It is said she has been the lover of the wealthiest men in Europe and keeps secrets that could topple empires. No one knows if this is true or mere gossip. Above all, The Empress is a business woman. She runs "The Empress of the Seas" coffee house -- a place of political debate, business transactions, and romantic assignation. The coffee house is named for her soubriquet, The Empress, a name given to her by her clients in reference to her demeanor: "She comports herself as if to command princes and kings." In addition to her popular coffee house, she runs a high-end brothel in St. James -- a place renown for its discretion and privacy. She maintains other smaller interests -- a milliners' shop in the Strand, a chocolate shop across from the theatre. It's also rumoured that she controls a shipping interest in the Colonies. Until her surreptious departure for the New World, Mistress Lilly McKinney was in her employ when she was between plays on the stage. Her relationship with Captain John Sterling is well-known yet enigmatic.

Captain Thighbiter, We all start out naive. No one springs full-formed from the head of Zeus, after all (except perhaps for Mr. Foxe!). I hope I helped clear up some thoughts you were having about the GAoP sources. Greg, We don't see fold down collars in the GAoP. But there's a reason for that. In this time period, collars were usually pulled tall, folded in half, and held high with a cravat of some sort. From the best-dressed captains and noblemen to the lowest half-clothed sea dogs, we rarely see a man without some kind of neck cloth tied around his throat. So it's not that shirts didn't have collars. It's that you can't see them. Band-collar shirts may have persisted from the 16th and early 17th century (when they were short, a mere base for the attachment of a ruff or falling band). But by the end of the 17th century, we're seeing collars peeping out from above neck cloths. Some even show their foldovers. There are undoubtedly some pictures of lower class seamen where you can't even see a shirt. And it is certainly possible that they skipped this layer. But that wouldn't have been common. What we don't see is seamen (or any men) wearing their shirts open in front with the collar pulled wide. The only incidence of a shirt worn open that I can think of, in fact, is the pictures of Bonny and Read. And the reason Bonny and Read are depicted in this way was to show their breasts, a bit of titilation for the purchasers of the book or print in which they were featured. There's no reason to think Bonny and Read went around with their shirts undone. Matter of fact, we have read over and over again that Bonny and Read were indistinguishable from men (which would imply they weren't showing their breasts for all the world to see). So do up those collars, lads! Now, the shoulder yokes we see on the so called "poet shirts" are right out. They're an invention of the Ren Faires.

She is still working. Her work is still amazing. Can't speak to her timeline though. Google her name. She's got a website, but you have to order by phone.

That's how I do the cuffs too, Pat. I just use more buttons. I never saw the pics of you wearing it before. It looks great!

Not quite. It's more like a tight sleeve with buttons securing the outseam. The turnback cuffs aren't usually buttoned. Sometimes, but they're usually just turnbacks. You mean like this fine example of the species? This is a sailor's jacket made according to the GAoP Admiralty Slop Contract Specifications. We also see similar jackets on common men in picture series such as "The Cryes of London" and other such sources. And there are four of them extant from burials in Ireland and Scotland. Without seeing the specific pieces to which you refer, I can only say "most likely". Face revers (lapels) are seen in the GAoP, but not collars. Me too! Welcome to my madness!

Did you not read my first post, Captain Thighbiter? I was telling Rats about how many different and varied cuff and pocket treatments there were in this period. There certainly were great variations in fashionable(and non-fashionable) clothing. But it is a definable quantity. For example, we know that curved fronts on the Frock Coat (that we see on F&I and Rev War coats) didn't come around until the 1720s. And we almost never see a collar on a frock coat in the GAoP. Collars come around early mid-century and then get larger and larger until they stand up on their own at the end of the 18th century. There are definitely things we can track and their uses have distinct beginnings and endings. We have a great deal of information from this period -- extant garments, detailed paintings, tailors' pattern books -- so we have more than just a few crude woodcuts to go on. Just because Foxe only posted three here doesn't mean that's all there is. To assume so would be rather naive.

I should have patented that prick stich before I spread it around! I'd be buying the Archangel by now...

Thank you, Foxe. The one I was thinking of was Leake's portrait -- because it shows the mariner's cuff in a fashionable context. But thank you for posting the others. It'll give Rats some great variations. I owe you one!

Captain, your crew's gone mad! Do you have to keep moving so they won't prick stitch you too?!?!

Why Captain Enigma! That never occured to me...

Yes yes. The 1720s coat. And the one from Manchester with the really weird cuffs and pockets, just for comparison. Would you?

Nah... Let's strip them to the waist, cover them in chocolate and watch them fight it out! Oh... Did I say that out loud?

Hi Rats, I guess the Captain didn't show you the historical notes for the Frock Coat pattern. All this stuff is in there. The GAoP is probably the era with the largest variation in pocket flaps and cuff styles that I can think of. There are pockets with no flaps and pockets with huge, oddly shaped flaps. There are vertical pockets, double vertical pockets, horizontal pockets, doublet horizontal pockets... If you look at period artwork, you'll see how ridiculous they became before they got sensible around 1720 and just made the kind of flaps you see on Rev War coats. Cuffs on frock coats were usually huge, yes, and only just covered the elbow. You can see a bunch of variations in the pictures here and here There were also coats without the so-called "dog ear cuffs", but they were usually those of the lower orders. Or, as luck would have it, sailors! Later in the 18th century, there was the development of "the mariner's cuff" which came to be the style of cuff worn by seamen (and still exists today on British Naval uniforms). It's a narrow sleeve with a flap not unlike a pocket flap on it. In the GAoP, this was not yet codified, but the narrow, buttoned sleeves were more common on seamen's jackets than any other cuff type (except, of course, the ubiquitous turn-backs). Foxe found an interesting "hybrid" at one point. It's a frock coat, but it had mariner's cuffs. It was worn by a ship's captain. The theory is that the huge dog-ear cuffs of the period weren't conducing to a sailor's work, even a captains. Foxe, darling, can you point us to that picture again?

Cheeky, darling. It's obvious that the sun was in your eyes. We all know you are gorgeous! Thank you all for your kind words. I live but to serve... Kass

You're very welcome, good Doctor! I'm glad to see them put to so good a use!

To the Crew of the Archangel and her gracious Captain, You all look so SHARP!!! I'm so very proud of the "elves"! Cap'n Pete, I'm jealous of you... Kass

Tora, You don't need steam at all to turn a hat blank into a cocked hat (tricorn), just some string or lacing. Check out the thread Mick posted. I think someone gives hat cocking instructions there. Kass

Tell ya what, William! Why don't you come down and leave "the kids" at home! Seriously, I'm sure there's always a place to camp...

Is that Janelle, the fabulous seamstress about which I've heard so much? She's the best!

Cap'n Pete, What a lovely collection! Would you mind telling me what is repro and what's original? It all looks so gorgeous! :)

Captain Jim, I owe you a pint!

Boy Hester, how did I miss this thread?!?!?! It's right up my alley! Mine is probably this red satin set of stays based on an original from the 1740s. Kinda cunning, don't you think?

Rateye, either I'm having deja vu or we've just discussed this. A search in this forum should turn up the discussion. I even think it was your dear Captain who started the thread.

Tuckahoe ROCKS!!! So does The Northerner, though they don't do pewter, just pottery and glass. But OH, the pottery and glass!!! But you don't have to run to the Captain's (or should I say MY) price range to have a good tankard, Rateye, my dear. I picked up a quart-size tankard complete with lid at the Reenactors' Market in England for L20. They were selling ones for well over 100 and when I saw "20" on the tag, I joked, "I guess that's 20 pounds, har har," she said yes! You can get two plastic cups of Ren Faire beer into it and, dainty lady that I am, I have my servant carry it around and she pours beer into my glass whenever it gets empty (and surreptitiously sneaks a nip for herself). But common men would drink straight from the tankark... although the lid does sometime bing you on the nose... My advice, Ratty me boyo, is to look at pictures of tavern scenes (you've seen Foxe's website of pirate pictures, yes?) and get the shape of GAoP tankards into your head. You can find many things at garage sales and flea markets that are close (and cheap!) when you know what you're looking for. Tuckahoe is a brilliant and wonderful sutler, but I wouldn't drag their stuff around at Faire...

Crimson, you missed me, yes, but it was my own fault. I could not make it. I had an appointment early the next day and thought it wise not to drag myself there by my lips after a day pub-crawling with you lot! But my girls and I will be at the Faire for Pirate Invasion in Merrick's Privateers' camp. Swing by!