Tartan Jack

The surviving parts in Crete overlapped the later Egyptians and the Mycean Greeks, but in a much diminished form from the pre-Thera period, when they were THE dominant superpower of the Mediterranean Sea.

Of course, when your capital and (most likely) central records are incinerated and blown to pieces, due to it being built in middle of the caldera on Thera/Santorini . . . that doesn't help them being less "mysterious," would it . . .

At one time, I read A LOT about them. But, it's been a LONG time (15 years) and they were Bill's private/personal books and papers. I don't have access anymore. I don't even have an idea of where those might even BE now!

(Edit: reading primary sources from pre-standardized spelling days plays HELL on one's spelling- despite your best efforts.

One of my professors in college (and seminary) was a top-scholar on near-east (esp. Egyptian and Israel/Paelstine areas). We discussed the Sea People over the years a number of times.' He didn't publish much, but studied under John Bright, student of the famous Dr. Albright. My prof was Dr Bill Kyrkendall. (If I remembered that spelling correctly)

His ABSOLUTE certainty:

The Sea Peoples were the people Thera/Santorini and Crete made refugees when the Thera volcano blew up is 1500 BC. The refugees that fled to Egypt, their major trading partner and rival, who settled the Sea People in modern day Israel. They became known as the Philistines there.

Their "old" civilization is now commonly termed the "Minoans" (after King Minos in Greek myth/legend) and probably inspired Plato's "Atlantis" in 600 BC (900 years after Thera-go-boom).

He backed it up with a HUGE amount of evidence, the most convincing for him is that the little bit of Philistine linguistics we know and the little bit of Minoan linguistics we know dove-tail together perfectly (he was primarily an ancient near-eastern linguist).

The topic was one of his favorites and he brought it up whenever he could make it relevant (which is quite a bit in early Egyptian, Greek, and Hebrew/Israelite history during classes).

He pasted away a decade ago. He was an AMAZING man, friend, and a breathtaking scholar who saw history as more real than anyone I've met. He inspired many of the ways I view history.

One of my professors in college (and seminary) was a top-scholar on near-east (esp. Egyptian and Israel/Paelstine areas). We discussed the Sea People over the years a number of times.' He didn't publish much, but studied under John Bright, student of the famous Dr. Albright. My prof was Dr Bill Kyrkendall. (If I remembered that spelling correctly)

His ABSOLUTE certainty:

The Sea Peoples were the people Thera/Santorini and Crete made refugees when the Thera volcano blew up is 1500 BC. The refugees that fled to Egypt, their major trading partner and rival, who settled the Sea People in modern day Israel. They became known as the Philistines there.

Their "old" civilization is now commonly termed the "Minoans" (after King Minos in Greek myth/legend) and probably inspired Plato's "Atlantis" in 600 BC (900 years after Thera-go-boom).

He backed it up with a HUGE amount of evidence, the most convincing for him is that the little bit of Philistine linguistics we know and the little bit of Minoan linguistics we know dove-tail together perfectly (he was primarily an ancient near-eastern linguist).

The topic was one of his favorites and he brought it up whenever he could make it relevant (which is quite a bit in early Egyptian, Greek, and Hebrew/Israelite history during classes).

He passed away a decade ago. He was an AMAZING man, friend, and a breathtaking scholar who saw history as more real than anyone I've met. He inspired many of the ways I view history.

The ruffian who clambers over the gunwale with the blade of his weapon clamped between his teeth is one of the iconic images of piracy. Obviously, there is some advantage to having both your hands free while you climb aboard another ship, but sashes and scabbards would seem to be a more practical solution than your mouth as a place to store your weapon while you climb.

Is there any historical evidence of pirates (or indeed anyone in the Age of Sail) boarding an enemy ship with cutlery in their teeth? I did search the Pub, but darned if I can find any previous threads on this question.

The ruffian who clambers over the gunwale with the blade of his weapon clamped between his teeth is one of the iconic images of piracy.

Our dear friend Howard Pyle liked the idea

Those aren't exactly the same thing. One is the climbing up and over of part of the ship, while the other is standing in the middle of a fight.

On the middle of a fight, having quick access to the "next weapon" is quite useful when gunpowder weapons were one-shot (not enough time to bother to reload). The shots below are easily that-> what is in the teeth is the next go-to weapon that would be useful after what's in the hand is used.

Yet, while climbing up and over from one ship/boat/craft to another is another matter and has other dangers such as random human limbs in fairly close proximity, any ladders or other "help" made of rope, and the fact that a blade and handle sticking out is able to snag other stuff on the way (like when anyone turns their neck while the 2-anchor points are moving on the waves) makes the use of anything longer than single-edged knife more dangerous than helpful. Plus, anything short is more practical in a sheathed storage close-at-hand, but not in the mouth.

Pusser's IS the British Navy rum, for those who don't realize it. When the Royal Navy stopped buying all of it, the manufacturer got permission to sell the rum to the general public.

Whether Pusser's rum gradually changed over its 300 year time as THE RN rum, due to changing tastes of time, or stayed the same (as Pusser's says) is a matter of debate. The present Pusser's IS the stuff used in WW1 and WW2, maybe earlier (how early?).

This can't edit feature can be frustrating . . .

I forgot to mention the legal issue at the core of the 1850s trials mentioned on page 2. At the time, it was illegal in South Carolina to teach a slave to read and write above a rudimentary level (one reason being the fear of slave revolt on coastal plantations). There was a series of prosecutions in the Upstate and Catawba River Valley areas where people and institutions were giving high school and even college and seminary educations to slaves, which they legally "owned" . . . Is that pro, anti-slavery, or something else entirely?

The point of the posts was to highlight the "gray" areas around what was a legal institution of the GAoP that is seen as entirely evil and wrong today. Even then, when legal and common, there were many shades between "for" and "against." Now, THAT makes me very, very curious as to the place of the "Negro" and "African" folks on pirate ships. Where in this huge range were they? Did it vary widely? (I suspect it did)

If you are willing to answer on here, Foxe, what is said about slaves, slavery, and "Africans" (or the like) in relevant period wills and articles? I'm curious.

A single edge, I could see-> if it is a short blade (only a few inches). But, then, that wouldn't have much reason in the given context as such wouldn't be useful for anything. Sticking it in a sleeve/scabbard would make much more sense. A longer (even single edged) blade is likely to cut your own hands/arms or whatever your climbing upon (besides anyone else around you). Now, doing the same while doing another job is an entirely different story . . .

As for the fuse cord/slow match, that's a perfectly logical and a good place for a double lit one where one's hands are likely to be full. It would make lighting them easier and faster to dispose of a load when they would be most effective. Good call, Cascabel.

I'm simple . . .

I prefer Blackstrap, then Pyrat. CM Private Stock is pretty good, but a bit sweet.

Pusser's is quite good too. I love Mount Gay, but it's a bit more costly.

When I buy it myself, I get either Blackstrap or Pyrat- dependent upon my mood at the moment and the prices of the store.

Oh, I want to throw in another element:

Slavery as legal protection . . .

I know of particular instances where churches and individuals utilized the legal "slave" status to employ and protect others they valued, but were of a lower socio-economic class standing. In this case, the "slave" was treated as either a brother/sister or child (depending on specific situation). That is the foundation for the loyalty some "slaves" had for their masters that where beyond what makes sense to most today.

In the 1830s-1860s there were several churches in my area that "owned" a slave that was college and seminary educated and whose duties was as the full-time pastor of the "black" members of the community. The support of that position continued well after the American Civil War, sometimes decades later.

That situation may be helpful to explain some of the relationships in-period, as well, esp. those that don't seem to make sense from our modern perspective.

That was one of the most surprising situation I found . . .

Folks using the legal status as something else and "good" from a modern perspective! Slave-owners that were actually "anti-slavery" . . .

And have even read a court case in South Carolina from the 1854 where a slave owner was prosecuted for teaching his slaves and helping them establish businesses and communities. He was accused of "undermining" the institution and of being "anti-slavery," even though the accused owned hundreds of 'em. I wish I could remember the specifics, but that was over 15 years ago in a college archive.

Slavery, itself, is a VERY complex issue in this period, as it was through the 1860s 150 years later in the Americas. We tend to view it through a post-Reconstruction (the period following the American Civil War) lens as a rather "black and white" (if you excuse the pun) issue. At the time, there were many, many gray stances on it and a huge range of shades. It WAS legal and a vital economic reality- all over the home countries and the colonies and wasn't an "Africans are slaves" issues, as there were also actual slaves of "foreign"nationality to a country and also of indentured servants that were of a crazy length and "debt slaves" as well from within a nationality.

On this matter, we need to TRY and view it as someone from the early 1700s would, rather than as a late 20th/early 21st century person. On pirate ships, all types of slave-free relationships existed, but not all at the same time on the same ship/boat.

To keep in mind about myself-> I am against racism, period, and have helped "desegregate" several white, black, and asian groups, unintentionally, by my stance that ANY decision where race itself is the primary or a prime reason for said decision, it is racism- whether that racism is good or bad (which it CAN be either). I've also BEEN the "outside" race in a number of Asian, Latino, and African-American (and African too) situations- so, I know "how it feels" to be criticized and to hide under the seat of a van . . .

Now, race and culture aren't the same thing!

The goal SHOULD be to get where skin color is like the "fiery red head" and "dumb blonde" ideas. It is a joke, but anyone who takes it seriously is seen as an idiot by anyone else.

Yet, through my personal interests and circumstances, I've read and interviewed an inordinate amount on the issues of slavery and racism. So, I have more knowledge and "learnin'" on the matter than many who pontificate upon the matter.

Add to that the fact that those who were "crewmen" could also be, in a sense, loyal "slaves" to the captain or another officer, actual free men, freed by capability and likability by the crew, or flat out slaves w/ no right, and also that captured black pirates, slave or free, were often sold into slavery.

Hummm... a new meaning to the expression "When Pigs Fly."

Nothing starts the day like a little pig meat for breakfast!

Damm, I even order Porkslap Pale Ale at the local cafe and on tap no less.

Jas. Hook

On my vehicle window:

But . . .

Fascinating side conversations, oft more interesting than the original topic, are common around here! It's part of what makes this forum so much fun . . .

With the Yamasee War, I was thinking more about the time period and stuff that can be discussed. That is one of the possible impact on "outlets" for people at the time (why at sea rather than settle in the continental British southernmost colony), for refugees from the fighting who may have "gone to sea" instead of settle in Charles Towne, or maybe even how it affected the psyche of Charles Towne and it's turn against pirates at about the same time. But I haven't looked into it too much. I keep looking for stuff on period boats and ships . . . or other non-period topics.

I DO think that, as Charles Towne/Charleston was a major trading partner with the various islands, esp. Barbados, a local war would have had personal impact on those in the area- in some form or fashion. I just haven't looked into that "gut hunch" . . .

Another influence on me and that particular War . . .

I'm IN South Carolina and some of my "teaching" is in the very area of the Yamasee War itself. I use it when "in character" as to why I'm at sea.

I know it's been a week since we discussed this topic, but I wanted to add another thought set.

There are three ways to look at what the "Golden Age" actually is/was:

1) the general period where piracy became a major socio-economic and political force for Europe and their colonies (particular the American ones). That would be the larger 1691-1725-ish.

2) the specific period the the mass rash/outbreak of piracy that informed the media and the popular image of piracy, sparking the huge volume of books on piracy and the need for a mass "clamping down" on that piracy. That would be the 1715-1724 period, esp. 1715-1718.

3) the period that sets the "classical image" of pirates and piracy in all forms of fiction from the 1720s through today. That one is more vague, not being set on the real history but as much on myth and legend. The narrative and visual is VERY much based on the 1715-1724 period. The described ships range from Elizabethan times to the Napoleonic Wars, esp. weighted to the 1770s-1820-ish. The NAMES used are also weighted to the 1650s-1720s with little regard to generational and geographic gaps, placing Buccaneers, Rounders, and New Providence pirates all together in a lump in the narrative. Looking at a range of "pirate" films over the last bit, I noticed that even the "buccaneer" era films presented the situation as it was in New Providence (pre-Rogers), only with the location names changed to fit the presented era-> as many tried to work Morgan into the "classic" pirate genre situations.

Historically, 1 and 2 are easily justifiable depending on the specific qualifications defining "Golden Era" historically.

The third is what it is in the popular imagination, such as in "The Pirates! Band of Misfits"/"The Pirates! In an Adventure with Scientists!" which puts pirates dressed (mostly/genrally) as early 1700s pirates in Victorian England a century later.

Wikipedia even defines the GAoP as:

"In the popular modern imagination, pirates of the classical period were rebellious, clever teams who operated outside the restricting bureaucracy of modern life. Pirates were also depicted as always raising their Jolly Roger flag when preparing to hijack a vessel. The Jolly Roger is the traditional name for the flags of European and American pirates and a symbol for piracy that has been adopted by film-makers and toy manufacturers."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy

And whoever wrote the specific article on the GAoP sees it as a broad range with three parts:

"

The Golden Age of Piracy is a common designation given to one or more outbursts of piracy in maritime history of the early modern period. In its broadest accepted definition, the Golden Age of Piracy spans from the 1650s to the 1730s and covers three separate outbursts of piracy:

1. the buccaneering period of approximately 1650 to 1680, characterized by Anglo-French seamen based on Jamaica and Tortuga attacking Spanish colonies and shipping in the Caribbean and eastern Pacific,
   
2. the Pirate Round of the 1690s, associated with long-distance voyages from Bermuda and the Americas to rob Muslim and East India Company targets in the Indian Ocean and Red Sea, and
   
3. the post-Spanish Succession period, defined by Marcus Rediker as extending from 1716 to 1726, when Anglo-American sailors and privateers left unemployed by the end of the War of the Spanish Succession turned en masse to piracy in the Caribbean, the American eastern seaboard, the West African coast, and the Indian Ocean.
   

Narrower definitions of the Golden Age sometimes exclude the first or second periods, but most include at least some portion of the third. The modern conception of pirates as depicted in popular culture is derived largely, though not always accurately, from the Golden Age of Piracy."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Age_of_Piracy

Wiki is getting better, but still remains . . . imperfect . . .

I still hold to what I posted before.

Had to take my girl to something . . .

Something I'd be interested in is the second tier of transactions by the taverns, prositutes, and other "wine, women, and song" expenses that the pirates spent their funds on and where that went.

Quite a few decades ago, Clemson University had to work to have games against Georgia Tech, as the 2 became big rivals even before they were in the same athletic conference. So, the Clemson fans would stamp their money with little tiger paws (the schools mascot and teams logo). The reason was that the residents of Atlanta, Georgia (where Georgia Tech's campus is located) could see the Clemson dollars filter around the city as they changed hands-> showing the money the Clemson-Tech football game brought to the city. Thereby, they could justify the argument of the economic impact of the game, causing it to happen more often and also fueled the interschool rivalry.

Likewise, I wonder the real-world economic impact of the pirates on the non-major populations, where the pirates COULD unload their non-personal-need goods.

For the "riches" to be worth anything, they need a buyer who values them. The pirates only could "move" non-supplies if they had a merchant or vendor of services connection they could trade the item with to get a return.

I'd agree with Foxe that they likely intended to be parasites or on a series of personal revenges and a revolt, BUT they ended up serving an economic necessity-> namely getting goods to those desperate enough for those good to trade with criminals.

Goods with no real personal need are useless. They must trade them for something they can use.

That includes "riches" one can't spend. They become so much junk metal and rock, even if pretty.

Reviving old thread . . .

For a request: Could someone make a copy of the 2 page spread showing the concept art in the "Art of" book (I'm sure SOMEONE owns it on here)? I'm really only interested in those 2 pages-> not worth $15-25 to me just for that.

Just PM me with a link or for my email for a direct image message, if you want. That would be fine too.

Hehehehehehe

Probably not . . .

Thread necromancy at its finest and Mission no where to be found.....

I didn't know the exhibit was in Minnesota. I might have to go see it again!

Swashbuckler is good at that. But, at least they were GOOD threads!

I don't mind that too much.

I still want to see it again. I'd LOVE for them to add Atlanta or Charlotte to their list. Charleston, SC would be extremely appropriate location in the Southeast, as it was in the middle of the actual historical events/period-but I don't see that happening . . .

Adam's right. If it isn't just right, homemade black powder isn't something I'd want around. Goex is worth the expense not to blow up or damage anything, which would cost even more.

That said, if your deadly serious, there's info on-line. Just be VERY careful!

Bigger image:

I figured you did. But, I posted in case some of the other folks didn't.

First, the English and Scottish flags separately:

And the combining:

While watching the 2012 Monaco GP, I'm trying to find some on-line shots of the Scot version of the Union Flag:

It is also discussed within the Wikipedia article on the Scottish flag: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Scotland

In the present political situation in Scotland, regarding Scottish autonomy (whether semi-autonomous rule or independence), the "Scot on top" flag is making a reappearance.

Any one know when this will come South, esp. to the Atlanta-to-Charlotte area?

There are a number of people I want to see this!

(I saw it in Philly, but WANT to see it again . . .