Caraccioli

Terminator 2 was actually better than the first movie. (IMHO) It could also be a time-travelling Barbossa.

Ohh, I want to say that's from Darby O'Gill and the Little People, but I know that 's wrong. So I won't say it.

Do you listen to yourself? You really want a rational explanation how a formerly undead pirate -> living pirate -> very dead pirate comes back to life again??!? Well, they should at least follow their own rules - the ones that operate in the environment of the movie. It seems to me that they soundly established the idea that when the coins were put back into the chest, the undead became human and could die. Barbossa was shot and he died. Unless Jack missed his key organs or something. Now they're going to re-write the rules somehow and.. No, no...Iron Bess told me I'd be satisfied with the reasoning for this and I do trust her. Seriously, I do.

I read that was cut out because the film was too long. (Did I read it here?) Amen, sister! Iron Bess promised me a year ago that I would be satisfied with the answer. (Looks like it's going to be voodoo to me. I hope I'm wrong.) Several us seem to be in agreement there. I doubt he'll turn truly pirate, though. What's happened so far doesn't support that and it would be completely against character. So I'd actually prefer he didn't. Absolutely! To recall something I said from the depths... Of course, you'd have to be able to accept the idea that other people may play the main characters if you re-use them. I doubt Depp would sign on for 3 more movies. (Then again, who knows?) Still, they have chosen to go the Star Wars/Back to the Future route. So we should probably all accept that and enjoy it for what it is. It's the best new movie I've seen this year. (Ok, it's the only new movie I've seen this year.)

For the life of me I can't remember where I read this, but corporations are one of the few groups that can't fight back when they're characterized as villains. God forbid you pick as a villain (or even vaguely characterize someone as villainous) from a specific race. ("So your villain was Liechtensteinian, eh? Mr. Moviemaker, allow me to introduce the monsterous legal machine that is the ACLU...") Look at the trouble they had over using headhunters in this movie! Since the ACLU doesn't represent the corporation (quite the opposite, in fact), corporate entities get tarred and feathered in Hollywood. Whereever I read that, they cited dozens of recent movies where the villain was a corporation. Ah, the wonder of induced fear.

It neither as good as I'd hoped, nor as bad as I'd feared. It was definitely an action picture - perhaps a bit too much action. You know, I think it was all the odd characterizations that made the first movie worth watching so many times. A bit of the freshness of Johnny's characterization was missing - so was a little bit of his spark. Characters like Gillette, Murtogg and Mullroy, Twigg, the big guy, Koehler (whose character was killed - alas), the prisoners in the cell next to Jack's, the Harbormaster and so on were sorely missing in this one. Instead we seem to have gotten slapstick performances by the headhunters, some of Davy's crew and various folks in Tortuga. In the first movie, you had several groups of people, yet enough individuals stood out to be remembered. In the new entry, you also had several groups of characters but they were more individually discernable by their physical features than their personalities. Even the Black Pearl's crew suffered this fate to a degree - somehow Cotton seems to have gotten more screen time, yet managed to be less memorable in my mind. Several other performances were toned down or overshadowed or something - I longed for a bit more of the over the top stuff seen in the first movie from Lee Arenberg, Mackenzie Crook, Kevin McNally and Jonathan Pryce. But then there was Jack Davenport - kudos to him for his really interesting turn in this one. Throughout the movie, I found myself wondering what he was going to do next. As I said elsewhere, one trip to the theatre was plenty enough for this one. As Sir Eric mentioned in another post, the second act is usually the slow one. I think the third movie will be good, although probably not quite as good as the first movie. But it should be well worth watching, so I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. As for the swordfight, all I can see is that it looked logistically impossible or at least improbable. Someone should have been struck down within the first few minutes of such a fight (probably Tuco). But this is the movies... (Next movie they better give Elizabeth something interesting to do. They're missing an opportunity there. I say let her get in a serious swordfight...and let her be better than Jack. (If she turns out to be Will's sister seperated at birth, I'm gonna be pissed.))

Nope.

Williams is definitely a master composer. The soundtrack industry would not be where it is today without him. As for re-using your old scores...my favorite example is the use of the Rambo music by Jerry Goldsmith in his composition for Gremlins II. Goldsmith is a great study - many of his soundtracks sound nothing like his other work. He's another master composer, although not quite as celebrated as Williams. (He was a composer before it was cool. )

If that's true, it's makes much more sense. Didn't they call the thing by beating on the side of the ship or something, though? It seemed a tenuous link to me when I saw the movie. As if the Kraken was somehow beholden to Jones, but not necessarily an integral part of him. Like the devil granted him the favor of an enforcer or something. If they had used the organ music in both pieces, the link would have been much clearer (from a musical perspective). It's an interesting point. The point about the track is true. (As for seeing it again, I paid to see it once. I don't think it's worth paying to see twice. I'll get it off Netflix when it's released.) Yes, it's called leitmotif. This is why I was complaining about the use of the medallian music in this movie. It violates the basic principle of leitmotif. I think Zimmer uses the leitmotif concept when it's convenient, but doesn't strictly adhere to it. That's a lazy approach to composition IMO. I think for the most part, borrowing from yourself is really as much an example of style as anything. I expect certain composers to be a cut above borrowing from other people, though. Zimmer is renowned enough to be one of them.

You mean he stole that too? Is anything good in there not borrowed?

Yes, Zimmer did a nice job. As I said previously, answering the question of how to do this is alone worth a nod. The track gives the monster it's heft (which you want to impart), speed (another important aspect), and the reactionary chaotic and horrific elements you mention. I still think the Phantom-ish organ music is slightly out of place. It would have been an awesome thing to incorporate into Davy Jones theme, but that would have changed the structure of that piece - probably not advantageously.

I didn't know that. It would explain why the music is so different in tone and sound than a lot of the other music. Curious...yet another piece of borrowed music.

That's an interesting way to look at it. I just remember being struck by the justaposition of this cheerful music and the dunking of the mayor and surrounding chaos. I'd forgotten about that until I read Black Pearl's post.

It's sort of hard to say what in the first soundtrack was a result of Badelt's influence and what was Zimmer's without having been involved in its production. I don't care for this soundtrack overall as much as the first one either, for the reasons noted above. From my listening so far, however, I think in some places the second soundtrack actually improves upon the first. Jack's theme should have a light sound, because Jack is a essentially a light character. The Kraken has a weighty, ponderous, yet occasionally quick-moving sound that fits the monster. And Davy's theme is imposing, yet tinged with melancholy. I like them. I do find some of the latter songs to be sort of lacking for various reasons. As of this moment, I think tracks like Hello Beastie should have been far more interesting and textured and than they were. (The exception being Wheel of Fortune.) However, I didn't much care for some of the latter songs in the first album when I first heard them, yet as I listened they grew on me. So it's difficult to say. One thought that had occurred to me when I read your post was about Two Hornpipes (Tortuga). As much as I like it as a standalone song, I remember thinking it was too light for the chaos onscreen during the movie. I go back and forth on movie music as a standalone entity vs. a slave to the movie action, so it's hard for me to be objective on that point.

Most notable composers do have a recognizable sound - I can often spot a John Williams soundtrack from a quick listen to a song from it. (I can name that song in three notes!) My original point was that although Badelt is named as the composer, Zimmer had more than a passing knowledge of the score for the first movie as its producer. As an example, I noted the similarities between it and the soundtrack for The Rock.

I do not know the answer to Mad Woman Cheryl's question, but I'll bet the music is remniscent of another composition rather than directly borrowed. I noticed that much of thos music is remniscent of something else or directly borrowed. Most of directly borrowed stuff is from the first soundtrack - sometimes the borrowed stuff is appropriate, sometimes not. Many of the uses are just plain odd. Take The Kraken track. I like this track and it gives the Kraken it's own ponderous motif, although it is interwoven with some organ music - music that sounds vaguely like the old Phantom of the Opera organ music. (Not Webber, the old Phantom organ music). Now this is weird. What does the Kraken have to do with that? Had you put it in the Davy Jones track, it would have made sense - it could even be a clever in-joke. Regardless, it does work and it's a good track that fits the monster. (How would you even begin to write a motif for a giant squid? Answering that musical question is in itself worth a nod.) Then there's the stock circus trapeze-like music in Dinner is Served. It's not so much odd as it is overkill for Jack's pole-vaulting slapstick. I suppose in the framework of the movie it works, but as a standalone piece...but then you get into a whole different debate on the topic of standalone vs movie-dependent music. So let's not go there. The circus stuff is appended to some new music for the cannibals: all new, aw-ful. (My least favorite track - well, excluding the uninspired Tiesto Remix.) They also have decided to re-use the motif from the Underwater March at the beginning of the Tia Dalma track. Why? Because there's water and it's mystical? They do save the track using hints of Davy Jones' theme and some pretty good vocal/orchestral stuff at the end. There's also the clever insertion of the "crew becoming human and Barbossa dying" music from the first movie. Wink wink. Probably my biggest complaint about re-using POTC:CotBP music is where they dredge up the motif for the medallion in Family Affair. I like the tune, but it should have been retired with the first movie. I suppose they decided it was about the only thing they could tie to Bootstrap, but still... No medallion, no medallion motif music! Ok, enough whinging. This is a pretty good soundtrack for the most part. So let me share my favorites: Two Hornpipes (Tortuga) is really good stuff. Again, it's reminiscent of a lot of period stuff that you've heard, but you can't quite identify. It's slightly manic, fun, bouncy music and it fits the atmosphere of Tortuga. My only complaint (and it's a small one): Why didn't they use something like this in the first movie? That would have made it an ideal segue between films. The tune from Davy Jones track is used all throughout the album. This makes sense and it's a strong, recognizable tune, so it works well. The actual track itself repeats the basic melody six times, including two bookended "music box" tracks. This really highlights him as an unfortunate character, so I expect we'll see some form of redemption in the next film. The music builds and continually changes key throughout the 2nd through 4th renderings of the theme. Very nice. Then they do this really sparse "heart beat" version as Mad Jack mentioned. I love it when they use the minimalist musical approach to a restated theme. Wheel of Fortune is a slick chase piece that incorporates all the best elements of the soundtrack. For the price of admission you get glimpses of Jack's theme, Davy's theme, even a bit of the Kraken's theme (not sure why). It contains some nice violin work in the background of several of the themes. It also incorporates the best of the sword fighting music from the original album. This is the way to borrow from the old film! My favorite track is Jack Sparrow. They did something really strange with this IMO. They took the music from the scene in CotBP where Jack and Will were moving underwater in the rowboat and basically declared it to be Jack's theme. (This music is from the misnamed track Walk the Plank in the CotBP soundtrack (At least half the tracks are misnamed in that soundtrack - I suspect when POTC:CofBP became a hit, they were caught unsuspecting and unawares and wound up bringing it to market in a mad rush.)) What's odd - and this may just be to me - is that I will always associate that music with the kid fishing from the pier in Port Royal. You know, the one watching incredulously as the lobster trap Will has gotten tangled with underwater goes bobbing by. Up 'til now, Jack's Theme was his introductory music in CotBP in my mind. Jack Sparrow is a great takeoff on the boy fishing thing that's been enhanced with a terrific new ending. It starts off with a saucy, insouciant double bass treatment of the new theme, totally appropriate to the androgenous characterization. Much of the song features a lighter sound than both boy fishing music and Jack's introductory music thanks to dancing violins. It also contains hints of Jack's introductory music from the first movie (proving I wasn't completely off base). Some nice driving "chase style" music fills out the middle. It restates the new theme in several musical voices and winds up with the original saucy version that cresendos to a satisfying climax. The CD is worth owning IMO. I found the first soundtrack to be quite nuanced which caused tracks I didn't care for at first to grow on me. This CD has a similar sound and the layered music usually appeals to my tastes. If it weren't quite so derivative, I suspect I would consider it to be as excellent as the first soundtrack.

Stripes. "And then, depression set in..." (next line, not for guessing) Now it's Thane's turn.

I saw it when it was in the theatres. It was about an ewok who finds a baby.

Yeah, having several quotes running around at the same time gets confusing. As for the idea that all protocol was summarily dismissed by pirates, that's the stuff of movies and lore. Historical evidence contradicts this as blackjohn suggested. From John Phillips articles: "3. If any Many shall steel any Thing in the Company, or game, to the Value of a Piece of Eight, he shall be marroon'd or shot." Sir Beachum has been very gracious, so what's say we dispense with marooning and shooting for (what I suspect is inadvertently) stealing a turn and just move on.

Sir Beachum sort of hijacked your quote. He's pretty new, so we should probably forgive him. Is it from Pride and Prejudice? The Great Dictator? The Maltese Falcon?

I tried to get your back on that one, mate. It appears my superpowers can only go so far. Mad Jack - in this topic, go to the lower left hand corner of the screen where there's a pull-down box titled "Moderation Options." The fifth one down in the pull down menu should be "Edit Topic Title."

So are you a certified diver, Blackjohn?

Labels are a mental short cut - they include both benefits and detriments. Just like any short cut does. I've found that I really can't enlighten the world of the unknowing. As a trainer (teacher role) I can only present my perception of reality to those who are interested and hope they take something useful and empowering to their perception of reality from it. Sometimes it amazes me what people take away from my sessions. I was training on general success principles a few years ago. A girl who attended the session decided after it was over to chart her whole financial future out in such a way that she could remove herself from debt. (Which is definitely a good thing for anyone to do from my perspective.) The funny thing is...I never mentioned debt and only gave passing mention to finances. That training was about the four success principles of preparation, planning, action and perserverence. Still, I'm always glad when someone is inspired to take what I perceive as positive action in their lives based on something I've said. (Although I still don't know what it was that I said. Her perception of reality isn't mine, so I suppose I never will know.)

Neat. As we've discussed previously, I'm not much of a Taoist, but I really like the idea that you can find your area of expertise and share it.

Ditto. I feel somewhat obligated to peek in from time to time and read this forum. My alter-ego and all that...