PyratePhil

M'lady - you're a writer and live on 20 acres, yet call ME anti-social? That's OK - I'm a writer and live on 5 acres. Seriously - I'm not sure I've explained my POV well enough. There's a lot more that goes into the making of it than can be put down in words, especially on this forum. It isn't that I don't WANT friends, love or social intercourse...well, actually, in a way it IS - I'm actively trying to eliminate my wants and cut WAY down on my needs. Couple that lifestyle choice (some might call it minimalism) with some "bad" (read: unpleasant) life experiences and my passion for Taoist philosophy, and you'll see the tip of the iceberg. Most people seek to ADD to their life to achieve their goals - I seek rather to SUBTRACT. Same destination, different paths. You see, I don't actively SEEK any of the above - if they happen to fall upon my path, I'll certainly give them a look-see and maybe even try them out. But always without hopes, without expectations and without false effort at making them work. It's the old concept of wu wei again... How do you know that my quest for perfection doesn't target the achievement of no friends, etc.? Each person's idea of perfection is different - so if that is indeed mine, then wouldn't I be heading in the right direction? And if THAT is true, then death has nothing to do with it. Death is an ever-present guest in my house - I treat him with respect, yet I do not fear him; I've seen him up-close and personal too many times for that to happen. I'll leave with him soon enough, but in the meantime I choose to develop myself along self-defined lines - not those put forth by media moguls or the easily-influenced societal drone whose idea of perfection is a cold beer in the right hand, a Burger King Whopper in the left and a large-screen HDTV smack-dab in the middle. ...not that that's a BAD idea of perfection, of course - it just isn't mine...

At risk of being used; of being abused; of being mislead; of being taken advantage of; of gaining false hope; of having expectations. Re: being a wellspring - every wellspring has its limits, though, right? Is it possible that the wellspring can run dry, thus offering no more love to others? And if your statement of "nothing to be lost..." holds true, then ANY time that ANYONE has EVER fallen in love they have NEVER lost ANYTHING. I'm sorry - I just can't buy that. It sounds too much like a personal-development mantra. I'm not referring to theoretical situations here - I'm thinking real-life ones. I've seen love spiked like a cheap football too many times to think that love conquers all and never hurts anyone. And the opposite view - withholding love loses everything - why? What do you lose, beside experiencing a transient surge of hormones / testosterone? You actually GAIN, I think - you gain self-sufficiency, self-reliance and self-fulfillment. As you mentioned in the drain analogy, you no longer have to look outside yourself for love, nor do you feel the desire to fill the world with it, thus exhausting your own wellspring in the process. Eh - nice quote, granted; but it generalizes a wee bit too much for my tastes.

...ye mean it ain't?

Then you also know that EVERYthing is an illusion. Besides, if you don't seek perfection, wouldn't that imply that you're willing to settle for second-best? And if that's true, and you don't get second, hell - third or fourth is good enough... "Those who are first are last"... Love: an overrated, over-hyped, underachieved and expectation-filled endeavor. Telling someone you love them not only puts you at risk; it also surely takes away from your power. Friendship: a temporary thing like everything else; only your closest friends can truly hurt you, and of, say, 100 friends, perhaps only 1 or 2 will be TRUE ones. Cappuccino: NOW yer talkin'! You and I are here? Sorry - I'M here. YOU'RE there. We aren't BOTH here. But now you'll probably reply that you're HERE and I'm THERE. See how it's all an illusion?

They never have and I doubt they ever will. Rumba is usually the one to let us all know what happened. Thank you, Rumba.

*in shocked voice* Cap't! Ye never told me ye was bi-postal!

One of the goals of Taoism is to unlearn that which you already know, at least insofar as the non-essential "filler" or outright incorrect knowledge. I've found this principle to be most easily understood in the practice of taijiquan (t'ai Chi) - you have to UNlearn most everything you think you know and have been taught about posture, balance, movement and weight transfers. When that knowledge is discarded, you fill the void with USEFUL and EFFECTIVE knowledge - proper body mechanics - and you soon find that your health improves immensely, along with your energy levels and your mental clarity. But you ARE correct that it takes a long time - a lifetime, to be precise - so one of our first goals is to learn to stay healthy long enough to unlearn everything we NEED to unlearn, so that we can learn what we WANT to learn. Plus, we get to catch some neat reruns on TV if we miss them in original run!

Could you explain to me how that could be completely accomplished? I can't see how it would be done, myself. You may attempt to absolve yourself from the requirements of a given society (although I think that even this would be impossible in a complete sense - it's more of a mental exercise than anything.) Even so, society would still consider you a part of it and thus you would be beholden to it and you actions would be so judged (ew, that word...). You might grab for the insanity clause, but then you really get to live under the dictates of society. So how could it be done? Live in a place completely ungoverened by any vestige of human society? Will you eschew all human amenities? Is there a way to get there without standing on the shoulders of your forebears and thus owning some responsibility to the society of humanity? (Even traveling to an unnamed asteriod or some such requires a rocketship and the tools to create food, water and O2.) Other than retreating into your mind (which, while in this existance, cannot be seperated from your body) I'm not sure how it could be done. (BTW, when I say "chosen to be a part," I believe that in some way, we choose to assume form before we become it. I wish I could explain it better than that, but - well, I can't. Sorry about that. It's one of the ookier metaphysical things in which I believe. It may just be a manifestation of my need for control of my life. (Yes, I understand that need for control is a weakness. I chose to live with it.)) Completely accomplished? I'll let you know when I get there. Almost accomplished? I'm working on it, and it's going pretty well. Just because society considers ME to be part of IT doesn't necessarily mean I have to ACCEPT that idea. And yes, I know they levy stiff penalties for those living outside of society - but ya know, sometimes, the rewards are worth the punishments. The mind does play a very large part in it - at least in the beginning phases of societal separation. You need to prepare yourself for the shock of being apart from the mainstream and, as I believe we mentioned either here or in another thread, being born into a society is a heavy load upon us - we're instantly forced to assume responsibilities and expectations, although we're barely old enough to crawl. Getting over the guilt trips and the need to live your life for others is just the beginning - but it's a beginning that is undertaken with the mind. Insanity clause? Naw, you can't fool'a me, Boss - there ain't no such thing as Insanity Clause! As in everything else, there are levels of separation from society that we can choose to rise (or descend) to. Giving up the weekly beer with the boys on Friday night is one "degree of separation"...giving up the house, the wife, the kids and the car and then moving into a cardboard box under the bridge is a slightly different degree. I don't think my idea of separation is so much a physical one (although I AM taking steps in that direction) as much as a mental and interactive one. The Taoists say that you can know the world without leaving your front door - I maintain that I can ignore society and be apart from it the very same way. But then the clinker drops - "If you're so into being alone, why write on this Forum?" Good question...one I'm not sure I have an intelligent answer for, besides the possibility that I'm indulging in my last "hurrahs" before I move on...or maybe because I'm a teacher, I haven't discharged my "on" or obligations to teach yet...I never claimed it was EASY to separate - just, in my case anyway, whether I like it or not, apparently my Path. Standing on the shoulders, etc. - eh...everything has an origin. That's one of those Universal Truths, I think, and if it is, then we owe nothing to society. We may incur some debts along the way with random humans - in which case, we should strive to pay them off as quickly and fully as possible so that we can continue on our journey burden-free. In a perfectly-balanced system (which I realize this world is not), any debt incurred would be discharged by our actions immediately preceding or following that debt. Therefore, no debt to "society" - only to individuals on a one-to-one basis. Sort of like mountain men trading furs for liquor with a fellow mountain man, instead of going into town and trying to haggle with the merchants. The one-on-one trade is immediate, effective and final. The merchant route is filled with complications, delays, and uncertainties. Not only can you not separate your mind from your body in this life - it would be folly to even attempt, or wish, to do so. They're an integral team, along with the spirit - the Holy Trinity of Taoism, if you will - Mind, Body and Spirit. The goal is to unite them, not separate them. On the "choosing forms" - that sounds like another thread altogether. And we all have weaknesses - what we choose to do with them is what, to a large part, determines our Path. It's only that pesky Fatal Flaw that hangs around for such a long time and finally bites us on the backside that causes such real problems...

Bah, humbug! As a Taoist I've been on the receiving end of plenty of slurs - from every faith imaginable, but because I live in a country that's predominantly Christian, I experience it the most from them. And if I said it any other way, I would be rightly accused of currying favor or trying to be PC. It isn't personal - it's a numbers game.

So what happens when you no longer consider yourself a part of that society? Are all bets off? Can you blithely skip around killing people then? Or does the early conditioning stay with you? What if you experience a trauma that permanently removes that conditioning? What if you never had that conditioning to begin with? I wish I still had my Magic 8-Ball. Personally, I understand the concept of carrying the burden of taking a life. But no matter what, I agree that every action has a reaction. Not always equal and opposite, like those scientists claim LOL, but A reaction.

Heartbreaking news, folks...

OK - here ye be... Not only do I accept that we don't have all the answers, but I also accept that once we spend a lifetime trying to acquire them, we suddenly find them useless. Therefore I accept what is, without expectations and without seeking answers to questions that have no relevancy to my journey. Since I seek perfection in my own life, I'm sorry but I won't be accepting imperfection in it. Acceptance leads to "settling", which I am not prepared to indulge in. If mathematics is indeed a science, then it also is constantly changing. Not necessarily the basics, granted (although there IS research on reinterpretations of the foundations)- but chaos theory, superpolynomials, heuristics and matrix theory, among others, are evolving on a daily basis. Thus, they are still in a test tube - just not one made of Pyrex. As to my friend Tom E. - you ask what the world would be like without him? I think not very different, since any invention that was patented by him would have been discovered and quickly brought to application by another scientist/inventor/businessman.

Ask him I may. Answer me he may not.

Sure - Mel Fisher!

You? Imagine all the poor little kiddies - thinkin' that the Disciples skipped around cradling baskets on Easter, hiding eggs and leaving candy for good little boys and girls... All very confusing, I agree.

Understood and appreciated. That's probably one of the reasons why "religion" is such a hot-button topic - we (many of us) have our own belief systems in place and don't appreciate being lectured to. I've always said that religion just gets in the way of being a holy person...

Nope, not what I said at all. Sorry. The way I look at it, character has EVERYTHING to do with WHATEVER we do in life, no matter the accomplishment. Sure, we could be scientific geniuses that leave behind wonderful insights into nature - but if we beat our wives while discovering those insights, what does that make us? Something less than giants. I guess it all depends upon whether we live for the moment's glory and acclaim or want to develop OURSELVES, instead of just some new-fangled gizmo. It's relatively easy to be a hero outside of ourselves - finding a novel way of slipping Tab A into Slot B is child's play compared to honing our spirit. I fully acknowledge Edison for his accomplishments. I just haven't forgotten or ignored what, in large part, produced them. If that makes me part of the new geo-political machine, so be it. But since I don't recognize geographical boundaries in regards to human behavior and I am totally apolitical, I don't really understand how it could. And no - no offense taken - we're jes' jawin', is all.

Science is just philosophy in a test tube. Actually, on a macrocosmic scale scientific "truths" ARE open to interpretation. How many times have the scientific truths of the past been superseded by new knowledge? They represent only the truth as it is known AT THE PRESENT TIME; thus, I stand by my previous statements. And aye, no one, scientist nor philosopher, has the market cornered.

Truth? Truth is like morality - different interpretations for every player in the game. No two people can hold the exact same truth - each is colored by their, yep, perceptions. And conditionings. And experiences. Is there a Universal truth? Personally, I believe there is. Perhaps just one, or many. Again, each of us will perceive that truth differently, if we're ever so lucky to glimpse it. But that may well be the intuited truth that we feel on occasion. But don't let societal mores influence your perception of truth. "Killing is bad" - that isn't necessarily a truth - only an opinion formed by certain societies and their moral/legal hangups. That involves what I see in MY system as one of the Universal truths - there are two sides to everything, one side gaining weight (importance) at a given time as its complementary wanes, only to reverse roles as time goes on. Think Yin/Yang Theory. Whether truth is outside of us or inside, I don't know. Certainly our ideas of truth, our interpretations, are inside of us. The actual truth of a situation is what lies outside of us, so the conflict seems to be the adjusting of our ideas since we cannot change the actual truth. We can rant and rave, tell everyone it isn't fair, that there has to be another way to sneak around that damn truth - but there isn't. Our job then becomes aligning ourselves with the universal truth(s) in order to grease the skids of life. This might seem to be in opposition to the Yin/Yang theory, but it actually isn't. For each and every second of life, there is a truth. It might change from second to second, but there's still an ultimate "right" and "wrong". What usually blows us out of the water is knowing that this moment's truth is the next minute's falsehood. We are raised to believe that truth is eternal and will always triumph, and falsehoods are evil and will be vanquished. I don't see such oppositions - I see balances between them. One is necessary for the other to exist. I know this isn't the standard way of thinking of truth, but it's how I sense the system truly is.

Have you insulated the second floor ceiling? It's a one-time investment but ends up using a lot less energy than fans...

William, that is fantastic. So much unsaid yet coming through loud and clear. Your brother has a gift - encourage him to pursue it.

*bows deeply* THAT'S the best definition of Mastery I've heard in a long time - thank you!

Well, I replied to the distraction argument because it was already brought up several times in this thread. Still, I reserve my final judgment until I know exactly what went on in that classroom - which is pretty much never. Maybe I'm still too much of an aging hippie, but I think questioning authority is one of the best ways to improve the system - if it's done the proper way, of course. Come to think of it, that might be what this entire thing hinges upon. Re: religions...awww, now you got me going... ... My main response to your last paragraph is, WHO establishes what a "legitimate religion" is? I've been discussing this on my religion and spirituality board for years, in addition to having studied it quite extensively for my Metaphysics degree (my "useless" degree, as my lady friend used to call it LOL). It falls into two camps - one recognized by the IRS (because of the filing of a non-profit/church status); one recognized through the graces of Christianity, which states that a church exists outside the regulations of Man. Since the IRS status is merely for non-taxation and other corporate perks, many smaller, less established and less popular assemblies use the second argument. I know of hundreds of churches that are "legitimate", although they do not meet, nor care to meet, IRS sanctions. If the Pastafarians have filed and had accepted a church status with the IRS, then you are bound by law to recognize them as a legitimate church (playing by those social rules you mentioned). If they have not, then the very fact that they claim themselves to be a church is enough to qualify them as "legitimate", at least to the practitioners. Just because we might not agree with their main premises doesn't allow us to claim them illegitimate. We could claim them silly, ridiculous or insane, but not illegitimate. PS - just did a quick search on the FSM site and couldn't find any evidence of it being a 501©(3) - there WAS a brief discussion of going that direction back in '06, but that's all I found. Not sure what their present status is.

Not at all - I knew what you were thinking. *eerie Twilight Zone music starts in background* Or maybe I'm just a Master of Circular Reasoning...

Or would go talk to the teacher in Pyrate garb ?...... Exactly!