jendobyns

Did the person posting these name the sources? They all look very familiar. I was just digging through my period cook books looking for things to accompany the main dishes for this weekend.

Yep, pippins are a type of apple, I have half a peck in the fridge which are going into a Cheshire Pork Pie, of all things. They are large and quite tart. My Granny Smith eating boys found them to be too much, but they are great for cooking. The receipt for the pork pie appears to be the same as the one published by Bradley, which appears in Ivan Day's excellent book, "Cooking in Europe 1650-1850".

Pah! We've been asked to source some ambergis (Sperm Whale puke or pooh 'pending on size) for some awfentick 17thC confections and This place in NZ is charging $20 a gram which works out $560 an oz ;o) Ouch! Guess I'll have to start combing beaches. 'Course I'd have to figure out what it looks like in the sand first. *L* I have some receipts for period cosmetics that call for it.

Yep, that was one of 'em! *L* Brings to mind one of my favorite movie lines "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way"

There are several images there Jen, which are you referring to? Grumblegrumblegrumble, It was there when I posted! This is, I think, the title: Jan Claasz. of de gewaande dienstmaagd: de ontdekking van Jan Claasz. It is the one where the lady is sitting down with at least 3 women in attendance around her, a knocked over bucket and mop in front of her, a man on the right, and another man dressed as a woman to the farthest right. She's wearing a gown which is undone at the front, with a blue under-thingie unlaced partially. The way it flops open at the very top, there can't be anything stiff inside it.

A wedding explains all the garlands, thanks! I totally understand the perspective of the artist license, painting for the patrons, etc. One reason we have to take it with a grain of salt. How much of what we see is painting to a particular patron's perspective? Does the patron want period political satire, paintings of famous dramatic scenes, humor, family portraits, erotica? Is the portrait taken of someone who is caught up in the trend to wear fancy dress? Such a tangle! Analyzing not only what the artist was trying to get across, but also their own personal experience, biases, and taking into consideration our own. We have to be part artist, psychologist, historian, anthropologist, archaeologist, etc. More than any one source we rely on ever had to be when the material we're using was created. Sigh. Maybe creating a time machine would be easier *G*

Now here's an interesting image. You can see clearly that what this young lady is wearing is not stays in the sense we know them. Jumps? Still under her very fine gown, but definitely not fully boned, or even as far as I can tell, partially boned, stays. All the info on this that I found is in Dutch, so I have no idea what the title of the painting may be. It came from this link from the link Grymm supplied: Cornelis Troost at the Rijksmuseum, AmsterdamGreat scans of Rijksmuseum paintings, from the 'Memory of the Netherlands' project Lots of interesting art there, with people behaving badly *g*<br clear="all">

Thanks for that Grymm. I am pretty much of the same mind here, this whole "everyone did X, if they didn't then they're Y" philosophy is pretty narrow. I haven't seen a lot of jumps outside of the "cheesecake" type of art, so seeing just stays or jumps on a working girl who isn't being portrayed as a prostitute would be awesome! And I seem to be seeing a commonality with the women depicted in jacket/bedgown/short gown without stays. They are all of a more mature nature from what I've seen _so far_. Complete with the heavy bust and large belly that some of us develop after child bearing and age. But while they could easily be over weight in our sense of things, even into their fifties, they could also be pregnant. Even if they aren't, those clothes will make them appear so when worn w/o stays. And, after multiple pregnancies and weight gains, wearing stays is just torture for some women on some days. So I can imagine a woman going out as this one appears to have done, completely respectably covered in every other way, sans stays. We do tend to bring a lot of 21st C. baggage along with us, and we need to be aware of that, and creeping reenactorisms. It's what an old anthropology prof of mine called ethnocentricity, viewing a situation from one's own version of reality, not from the perspective of the culture/ethnic group being observed. So for now, while jumps appear to still be somewhat problematic, is it safe, do you think, to say that the less formal outer garments like bedgowns, could be worn without stays in public on occasion? Without the woman in question being considered "loose", or a procuress? Or do you think that perhaps these images are artistically suspect enough to avoid it?

Oh, goodness! I just now got around to seeing this painting. The lady on the platform just breaks so many taboos! No stays, she looks quite pregnant (although there could be other interpretations for her shape and size) and she's apparently been playing a fiddle, which from my understanding of appropriate (read: lady-like) behavior for a woman, is not acceptable. The couple dancing in front is also interesting. The line of her bodice is definitely not what you'd usually see with stays, and the man's foot is under her petticoats as they are dancing. What's that supposed to be about? This is a May Day celebration, perhaps? The more I look at this, the more interesting little details I see. Hmmmm.

This is awesome.., and worth every schilling . So when is the next one? My lads may be interested.

Hehe, that's good. I'll have to remember this next time someone gives me grief for calling it a bake kettle, that being the term lots of folks over here have started using, after a bunch of digging around for references to what the thing is actually called in period. But change comes slowly. Maybe letting them in on the joke will speed things along

We bodged a 'brush' from a knackered old bit of linen cloth rescued from the scraps we use to make charcloth. Thanks! It was really hard to see that it was linen from the pic, almost looked like thick cheesecloth. Since I have more linen scraps than I'm likely ever to use for charcloth, I'll keep that in mind *g* I just priced saffron yesterday, it comes out to around $350 an ounce. Maybe I should lock up the bottle from the Chinese market, it was cheaper there *g*

Eeeep this is putting me head above the parapet but her are some pics of the very first time me and me chums tried it waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the early 16thC ;o) http://www.flickr.co...57605997771339/ It's become a regular at home using a steamer rack and a wok with a lid. The bronze cauldrens we use at work are fantastic for cooking in, much 'faster' than iron and they don't sadden your food, give it that slight grey tinge that cast iron does, BUT they do need proper cleaning with mucho elbow grease and scourers. Ah, that's quite useful. Thanks. What was used to spread the saffron on the bird in the kitchens at HCP? I'd use a pastry brush at home, but it looks like a little wad of something I can't identify in the pic. And using the pastry trick is a good one, especially for pot lids that don't seal well. Will file that away for future use *G* I learned the hard way about iron pots saddening the color of food. Made the mistake of making my standard lentil soup in one, the camp name for it that weekend was crank case stew, as it looked like something you'd drain out of your car. Smelled and tasted wonderful, looked absolutely awful! I had used a (different) iron pot to dye with, so I should have been aware of the saddening issue, but it didn't translate to the part of my brain that cooks food. Sigh. Live and learn, eh? So I take it that cooking this recipe in an iron pot, even just steaming it that way, would have some impact on the color? How interesting. Gotta start saving for bronze!

That looks gorgeous! I'll have to give this a go at the next event. Do you have pics of yours to share?

They all worked for me. The Blackbird song was what was stuck in my brain when I left for class. And what I woke up with in my head this morning! So, does anyone know what part of the UK Stan Hugill came from? Here's a video clip where's he's doing a presentation at Workum: Mistress D.

What a wonderful resource! I noticed there isn't anything for Guernsey and Jersey. Aren't they part of the UK? Or do they share a dialect with somewhere else?

Now you've gone and done it! I've got the Wurzels stuck in my head. And it's time for belly dance class! This should be interesting. The more I listen to these clips, the more I'm sure there are pockets of these dialects or their descendants in the Baltimore area. Maybe it's worth checking to see if anyone 'round here has done research on immigration/local settlement patterns and regional dialects for areas around Balimer (I think the i and e are kind of swallowed when you say that). Mistress D.

Holy Cow! That Sussex accent sounds so much like someone I know who I'm pretty sure is from around Baltimore. Another Chesapeake Bay area fossil, perhaps? Worth finding out if it can be useful, like the Tangier Island accent. Mistress D who really liked The Story of English.

More on dance possibilities: For pirates interested in dance in Beaufort, this wonderful woman (check out the website for her book about sailing the Chesapeake) is offering an English Country Dance class on the first Saturday (at least, that's the schedule for now). I had some great conversations with her over the weekend and she is familiar with some of you already and has participated in Piracy oriented events in Beaufort. http://www.susanschmidt.net/thebook.htm There is contact info on her website if you want to find out details about the dance. Mistress Dobyns

Case bottles go back at least as far as the first half of the seventeenth century. One was found at the Martin's Hundred site, c. 1620-45. And yes, the Picart picture is of a Dutch/Flemish sailor. (Brabant actually straddles the Belgian-Dutch border) This pretty much goes with what I was reading in Hume's "A Guide to Artifacts in Colonial America", it says "Prior to the appearance of the globular-bodied dark green glass bottles of the mid-seventeenth century, the common large bottle was blown into a square-sided mold and had a nearly flat base and a short neck with an everted lip, the latter feature frequently concealed beneath a threaded pewter collar and cap. The bottles varied considerably in size, but because of their vulnerable flat surfaces they were sold, carried, and housed in cases or "cellars", each generally holding a dozen bottles. These case bottles have frequently been described as "Dutch gin bottles," probably because they were so used in the latter part of the eighteenth century. The Dutch bottles for "Hollands" or "Geneva," were certainly square-sectioned (though tapering toward the base), but that does not infer that all square-bodied bottles were of Dutch origin. On the contrary, they undoubtedly represented a very large part of the English bottle output of the first half of the seventeenth century." There is more, it is really worth checking out a copy of this book if you can get it. Lots of diagrams of various artifacts with their dates and descriptions. Mistress D.

I think I need to purchase a set of these! How do I go about doing so? Mistress D.

What a cool look! Great prints! I did a quick check of my Cut of Men's Clothes and found a couple of casaques that were designed with sleeves that buttoned up the length of the inside seam, allowing for a hanging sleeve or cape-like sleeve if unbuttoned. They dated mid-century. There's an example from 1654 (diagram XIII) which has a similar sleeve as the first sailor's. There is also a version of this second sleeve, on what is called a doublet, in Fashion in Detail. It also dates to the earlier half of the 17 century. The sleeves button the length of the seam, edges are finished. These are high-end examples, so the sailor's clothing could possibly be second hand, or demonstrate a filtering down of the fashion over time, or are part of the artist's props, or we just don't have any surviving examples from later in the century. It would be so useful to know more about the artist and date of the engravings. Love the slops, they kind of look like a block print of some kind. The weskit in the first sailor's picture is the same print. And the woman's sleeve also appears to be a print. Interesting. The earrings are great, pearl drops instead of hoops! I think I've seen this before, in some portrait, but darn if I can find it now! Will do some digging for extant examples. I have seen something similar worn by someone at Jamestown (I think it was an ECW reenactor), it is a very cool look. Wool tape makes great garters. Slightly stretchy, but grips enough to hold the stockings up. I've abandoned my leather ones in favor of the wool. I think silk ribbon might also have been used, but those show up in later period paintings. Mistress Dobyns

Adding to this very old thread so as not to clutter up the files: Is anyone interested in learning ECD with a period slant (rather than modern) in the Baltimore area? I have a core group that's on hiatus at a historic site northwest of Baltimore, and am hoping to re-start this season if there is sufficient interest. We're definitely organized around dances of the period (mostly doing Playford, with some later dances thrown in) and for those who are interested, I can teach baroque step technique. I am also willing to consider teaching outside of the current location near Belair, MD, if you're not much further north. YH&OS Mistress Dobyns

Hi Folks, Just got this in my email, might be of interest to those of you who are interested in period food. Mistress D. On Saturday, October 16, the New Castle Historical Society, in partnership with the Delaware Historical Society and the Delaware Division of Historical & Cultural Affairs, will present a program on historic Dutch food of the 17th century. The program, "Dutch Foodways: Food in Art & Art in Food" will begin at 1:00 p.m. at the Buena Vista Conference Center on Route 13 South in New Castle, Delaware.<br style="line-height: 1.22em; "><br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">Hudson Valley food historian Peter Rose will discuss historic Dutch foodways in America and the legacy of colonial Dutch cooking on the modern American diet. Peter will use historic Dutch artwork and artifacts to frame her interactive discussion of Dutch food and cooking techniques with the audience. Donuts, pretzels, coleslaw, pancakes, waffles, wafers, and cookies are all part of the culinary legacy that 17th century Dutch settlers left to modern Americans. <br style="line-height: 1.22em; "><br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">This program is partially funded by a grant from the Delaware Humanities Forum, a state program of the National Endowment for the Humanities. <br style="line-height: 1.22em; "><br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">Admission is $8; Admission for members of the New Castle Historical Society or Delaware Historical Society is $5.<br style="line-height: 1.22em; "><br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">Reservations are required for the "Food in Art" program. Please call the New Castle Historical Society at 302-322-2794 to reserve your space today. <br style="line-height: 1.22em; ">

So who here in the Pub is qualified to sail her? Supposin' one of us who can't actually wins the lottery, that is. Mistress D.