jendobyns

Unless it was a guy in drag. I think that would count but I could be wrong ...I don't know about these things. Yeah, in Key West, any thing's possible. I shouldn't have assumed it belonged to a woman, although for a potential drag queen, it was rather ambitious As my sister says, what happens in Key West, stays in Key West.

Like Hurricane said, no discrimination there. I know someone in his 70's who makes sure he gets there every time he visits. It might be considered a pilgrimage. The item hanging from the bushes might have been a woman's bathing suit top .... or something like that. Kinda hard to tell from the ground level.

With this point in mind it is perhaps worth bearing in mind that the standard navy issue was 1 gallon of beer per man per day. But with my above post in mind, how strong was the beer/cider? A gallon of 2% beer only contains the same amount of alcohol as 2 pints of 8% beer. A lot of the beer consumed would have been what is called small beer, made out of the leavings from the first or second batch of beer. Gotta squeeze every useful bit out of that barley and hops! It wasn't very alcoholic. I'll see if I can't dig out my notes from the brewing workshop at CW last year. Might not be tonight, but soon. And beer is like liquid nutrition, where you can't preserve grain, so beer at sea makes sense. Easier to keep it from going "off".

Is there anyone in the Silver Spring/Wheaton, Maryland, area, who would be willing to teach a person new to this period how to sew? He'd rather make his clothes than buy them, and it's not a task I can undertake at this time. Please PM me about this. Mistress D.

I'll never forget my first trip down there, walking down the street, looking up and seeing very interesting things indeed hanging from the bushes. It is a place of pilgrimage for some folks Mistress D.

So I guess when you use bison, it's Frontier Pie? As far as bison meat goes, I know that bison were still kicking around the southeast during the 1670s. Not only did the colonist in Charles Towne SC trade with the natives for the meat but the hides were one of the more valuable pelts form the area Yeah, I think that is true of most of the east coast. Our view of their existence only in the western States is rather skewed by the movies.

After talking to Rod Cofield yesterday, I think it might be best to give him the link to the Pub (as I did with Carol) so he can post his info here. He's offered to share the slide show presentation, which has most of the sources in it. He will be offering the paper for publication in the Saint Mary's Quarterly (a publication of St. Mary's University) but until they decide to publish it, it won't be available in print as far as I know.

Too true!

It would probably have to be at an event. Agreed. That could be tough, as he works weekends as a rule, at least during the "on" season. But the site might consider it outreach.

First paragraph: Victorian influence layered on top of upper-class attitudes of appropriate behavior, that started taking hold toward the later part of the 18C. That's the short version of why we have these long-held beliefs. In the earlier part of the 18C, and back into and before the 17C, the social divide wasn't quite as clear. The Victorian influenced, mostly elite, urban based research has been propagated time and again, up into at least 2003, but the primary documents do not back that up for the general population, or even the higher classes. And yes, skepticism as to the part of a woman in a painting of a tavern is a good idea, unless there are obvious indications (unlaced bodice, a procuress collecting money, a man leading her out of the public space). Second paragraph: Yep, have to agree with you there (and so would Rod). Perhaps one of the reasons we have a hard time wrapping our heads around the idea of society imposing a stamp on our behavior is that we're much more like the transient society of a dockside pub. When you don't stick around for long, it isn't as noticeable when you're a regular brawler, or get the serving maids pregnant. And probably a lot harder to haul your body into court to sue you for whatever fees are involved as compensation.

His name is Rod Cofield and he has a full time job at a local museum, so he's not exactly doing a lecture circuit. Right now he's up to his eyeballs in planning an event for Sunday, I'm gong to be there and plan to take some time to talk and I'll be taking some notes from the Pub and see where we get with questions. The best thing would be to direct him here, though I'll wait until the Sunday event so he has more time.

OK, questions. Did he break it down by type of tavern or area? Dockside alehouses vs travellers ordinaries, for instance? Civilised areas like Boston or Philadelphia vs places on the fringe like Port Royal? That sort of divide still exists today- upscale wine bars and biker bars, Central Park and the Lower East Side. Women will still be found in both of them, but not the same type of women. Does he have this lecture avaialble as printed text? I'd really like to see it. Hawkyns No, he didn't break it down that way, although the lecture was pretty much cut in half for time considerations. I'll find out if he covers that when he has more time, as he does have material from a fairly broad range of sources. I don't know if he has it available as a printed text and will find that out as well.

That's really, really interesting! In a way, it casts this whole discussion in a new light as men nearly always modify their behavior around women in one way or another. Could you cite a source for this? (It sounds like there are many.) He did have a bunch of sources, most of them in the Chesapeake area, but there were other places. I'll see him again on Sunday and if there is time, will sound him out about a bibliography. A lot of it comes from archival material, court cases and such, but hopefully there's some available from various data bases that he can share. One source I have on my shelf, which is "The Journal of Madam Knight" by Sarah Kemble Knight "A Woman's Treacherous Journey by Horseback from Boston to New York in the year 1704". It is interesting to read, as she writes very frankly about her journey and various lodging conditions, including at least one instance where she shares a room with strange men with absolutely no sense alarm. Other sources were things like newspaper advertisements, offering services, notifying people when there was a change of ownership, and at least two cases where men published that they wouldn't be responsible for their wives tavern bills over a certain cost. And then there were the journals. Do you think there might be a forum in which it would be appropriate for him to give his presentation to folks from the Pub? I don't think I can really do him justice! But I will try to track down as many of his sources as possible.

You guys made me think of another question: did ordinary women ever go to the taverns for a drink (or a flirt, or whatever)? I heard something about the Nice Girls kept their heads covered, but I might've heard wrong. YES! OK, here's the scoop from the lecture today. Basically, from the 1600's through the early 19C, women of nearly every walk of life could be found in taverns and ordinaries. The info I had about only certain types of women being found in taverns (servants, proprietors, "working girls") is dated information based on secondary sources in a limited geographic range. A lot of research has brought new information to light. Primary source information (court documents, diaries, travelers accounts, etc.) show that people of both genders would go to taverns to get together, dine, party and drink pretty much as they do today, and as they did in England at the time. Out of period, later in the 18C, there started to be more of a sense of "delicacy" about ladies being in taverns, but that was a minority of people influencing the accounts, and doesn't represent the majority. And it certainly doesn't reflect what more common folk considered normal. Women could be prodigious drinkers, have multiple drinking partners, run up dept for their drinks, attend taverns with and without their husbands, get into trouble pretty much the same way men could, etc. Women proprietors, daughters of tavern keepers and tavern keeping families, servants of all types (free, indentured, slave, native), and patrons are all found in taverns. So there is a lot more flexibility in interpretation than there was a decade ago, thanks to some great folks researching the primary sources. I love it when the Victorian, sanitized versions of history are blown away! Research rules! And I'm still processing a lot of what was said today. With any luck I can talk Mr. Cofield into sharing his bibliography for the talk. He's got some great stuff!

Well, the feedback regarding the Mermaid sign for a sailor's tavern with potential for light skirts isn't encouraging. It appears to be one of those things where people have heard something, but nobody knows the source. So no documentation for that lead. But it might be a starting point for some research. Will keep you posted if anything solid comes up.

This just in from someone on the English Country Dance list, where they're talking about lyrics that go with Playford dances. "I have two CD's by the City Waites that have lyrics for Playford tunes including Lilibullero, Jamaica, Lumps of Pudding, The Gelding of the Devil and Sellinger's Round. Many of the songs seem to have been published in "Pills to Purge Melancholy rather than Playford." So if you want to pull up the links Grymm provided, and plug in a CD to sing along (and practice for PiP?) this might be an optionAnd I like Baroque music, too, just not when it's played at light speed. It simply looses some of the baroque feel to me then. Kind of like when a minuet gets turned into a waltz.

And then there is Thailand, but I won't go there. Actually, for some reason I was reminded of something I ran across back when I was working at a historic site that had active archaeological work. They excavated a plate with a rather homely mermaid on it. Somewhere during that time I found out, and I'll have to do some digging for the source, that the sign of a mermaid on a tavern meant more than drink could be procured. The people in charge of the site decided, in a "d### the torpedoes, full speed ahead" moment, to adopt the plate as their logo. A decade or more later, it still stands. So, it might not be the dress of the women inside, but some indication outside the tavern, that makes the difference. Kind of like the red-light thing. I'm off to email someone at that historic site, see if they've found anything more about the mermaid/bordello/tavern thing.

So I guess when you use bison, it's Frontier Pie?

You guys made me think of another question: did ordinary women ever go to the taverns for a drink (or a flirt, or whatever)? I heard something about the Nice Girls kept their heads covered, but I might've heard wrong. Wow, lots of interesting tidbits here. I have some questions regarding sources: Where did the one about blue aprons come from? I've seen art work with blue aprons, but the women involved were working in a domestic setting. In later period English American interpretation, there is a theory that pinner aprons were worn by women of questionable morals (they are also worn by little girls, and French women, go figure!) Not sure if that applies to GAoP, though. Long, long ago, I attended a lecture on period travel which included a portion on taverns. Respectable women were not entertained in taverns like the men were. Taverns were, essentially, men's spaces. Even when traveling and a stop was made, the women stayed in the coach and food was brought out to them. If a woman was working in the tavern, she wasn't regarded as respectable (this could be a broad definition by upper class standards). Since women owned taverns, "respectable" might mean weather someone was in trade or not. I'll be going to another one of those lectures about taverns on Monday and will try to nail down some details. Two pieces of later period art work come to mind, "The Spirit is Willing but the Flesh is Weak" and one Hogarth print where a young woman has just come into town and is being picked up by a procuress. There is also a series of prints themed around young women heading out to work when ships have come into port. I'll try to get back to this with links for art later.

No real recipe as such, just guidelines. This is one of my quick and dirty, the boys have just had their braces adjusted and don't want to chew, meals. about a pound of meat, usually ground (I've used beef, bison, turkey) part of an onion, sauteed till clear some frozen mixed veggies, sometimes just peas & carrots chicken broth/water/wine/beer whatever herbs and spices are in the cupboard that go with the other ingredients mashed potatoes to cover (usually plain white potatoes, although I've played with sweet potatoes, and will try potato-carrot mash one of these days) Sometimes I use a bottom crust, usually not. Add ground meat to sauteed onion (and sometimes I also have sauteed garlic and celery in the mix) brown meat, add veggies, some of the chosen liquid, whatever herbs or spices take your fancy, simmer till broth is reduced to the desired consistency but before the green veg looses it's color. Taste! add salt and whatever else you think it needs. Dump this into a pie pan, casserole, whatever you want to use. Top with mashed potatoes. Bake in 350 oven till done, about 1/2 hour. You can sprinkle some cheese on the potatoes before it goes in the oven. This probably has little resemblance to traditional shepherd's pie, the boys and I play with it depending on their moods and what's in the pantry. They really like it when I use bison.

Well, so far these are on the top of my list for today And I love it when these little guys chirp and whistle!

It might be possible to make a big strap to go over the shoe, around the instep, and attach the buckle to that by making the ends of the leather act as your latchet. A wide strap that fits your buckle and shaped that it doesn't want to roll around and end up sideways. Or use some elastic for the part that goes under the shoe if this is just a "costume" piece, so it's tight enough not to roll around. So it would look like ===---=== before you attach the buckle, with the dashes representing the elastic. How the shoe is built and where the laces are might determine if this will fly or not. If that won't work, you might try this: When I was just starting out 25 years ago, we learned that you can buy men's leather oxford shoes at the thrift store, and sometimes unclaimed ones at shoe repair places. Get the plain ones that have a strap that crosses over the shoe. You'll cut that part off, so that you have two tabs (latchets) that meet in the middle. Punch a hole through each of the tabs, put a cord, linen tape or ribbon through to tie--or your buckle if it'll fit. Now days it might be harder to find these without fancy decoration and with leather soles, but it's worth looking.

Well that explains it, then. Hannah Glasse was why they were so familiar.

Sigh, I guess I'll be dong a cookery book treasure hunt Oh, there is another version of the Cheshire Pork Pie intended for consumption aboard ships, which uses salt pork and potatoes, and omits the wine. One version of this can be found in the section of Hannah Glass's "The Art of Cookery Made Plain and Easy" in the chapter "For Captains of Ships" 1747. Publishing date is a bit out of the GAoP, but it usually took a decade or more for things to make it into the cookbooks. So most of those receipts would be appropriate for the end of the GAoP. "Take some salt pork that has been boiled, cut it into thin slices, an equal quantity of potatoes pared and sliced thin, make a good crust, cover the dish, lay a layer of meat seasoned with a little pepper, and a layer of potatoes, then a layer of meat, a layer of potatoes, and so on till your pie is full; season it with pepper when it is full, lay some butter on the top, and fill your dish above half full of soft water; close your pie up, and bake it in a gentle oven." Pies of this sort tended to be quite sturdy, standing alone. Check out the Tudor Cooks videos on raising a pie on YouTube to see how it's done

Well there went the rest of my morning! You come up with some of the most interesting sources! Is there a translation of the first, or is that what the second link is for?