Making a full kit in four months

[Mary Diamond]

Looking good!

I have purchased many items through Samson Historical, and really like them. My biggest concern with purchasing stays is achieving a proper and comfortable fit. The benefit is you will have a pair to reference when you go to make your own. Note that all their stays appears to be cross-laced, which is incorrect for our early timeframe. The holes should be offset (except first and last pair), and spiral laced (which allows for better movement and more comfort). The drawback to purchasing stays - incorrectly fit stays can be painful to wear, affecting your back, your underarms/ribs, and your hipbones.

Sewing stays couldn’t be easier, as the channels and seams are all straight lines. Taping the edges takes a bit of time, but yields a lovely finish. If your concern is fitting the stays to yourself, perhaps look into a custom fitted pattern? Below is an example link:

https://www.etsy.com/listing/899267190/custom-18th-century-stays-pattern-arc?click_key=07f3df5ecf21cf851438135404e4f0ce806d1eb8%3A899267190&click_sum=389c8273&ref=shop_home_feat_1&frs=1

I just came across this, and thought it not bad as yet another option.

https://blog.americanduchess.com/2016/05/18th-century-stays-q-about-simplicity.html

Keep up the good work! You are doing great.

[Tudor MercWench Smith]

3 hours ago, Mary Diamond said:

Looking good!

I have purchased many items through Samson Historical, and really like them. My biggest concern with purchasing stays is achieving a proper and comfortable fit. The benefit is you will have a pair to reference when you go to make your own. Note that all their stays appears to be cross-laced, which is incorrect for our early timeframe. The holes should be offset (except first and last pair), and spiral laced (which allows for better movement and more comfort). The drawback to purchasing stays - incorrectly fit stays can be painful to wear, affecting your back, your underarms/ribs, and your hipbones.

Sewing stays couldn’t be easier, as the channels and seams are all straight lines. Taping the edges takes a bit of time, but yields a lovely finish. If your concern is fitting the stays to yourself, perhaps look into a custom fitted pattern? Below is an example link:

https://www.etsy.com/listing/899267190/custom-18th-century-stays-pattern-arc?click_key=07f3df5ecf21cf851438135404e4f0ce806d1eb8%3A899267190&click_sum=389c8273&ref=shop_home_feat_1&frs=1

I just came across this, and thought it not bad as yet another option.

https://blog.americanduchess.com/2016/05/18th-century-stays-q-about-simplicity.html

Keep up the good work! You are doing great

Oh i know! The cross lacing is one of my biggest pet peeves about them! I can get over the tabs being a little shorter, the back being a little lower and the straps further up on the shoulders, i can even forgive the use of cotton....but cross laced??? The horrors! Lol

My concerns are entirely the fitting. Construction wise itself i have no concerns. So looking into getting a custom pattern is a pretty good option (i know there are arc drafting tutorials out there but that is soooo far out of my wheel house....math and spacial relations are just not it for me). If i can cut it out, maaaaybe make some minor fit tweaks, and slap it together, I'm there but that is my limit. 

I have eyes up the AD pattern....also slightly oop too but not too bad and i did here they go together pretty easily. My only reason for not pursuing that path was all the scuttlebutt on the historical sewing and stays groups I've lurked in is that they are incredibly short waisted, which i am not, so once again would be a level of pattern adjustment/tailoring that I'm just not equipped for. 

The other upside of purchasing ready made for me, is that frees up project time so i don't overwhelm myself and can just focus on what I'm confident on and it that i truly need to get done as well. And as you said, having a set would then help me as a guide when i do revisit making my own. I've spent a large amount of time both wearing and selling mass produced historical "corsets" (mostly victorian but some Elizabethen) so i feel pretty confident in getting correct measurements and checking for correct fit and exchanging it if it's not a good. I don't play when it comes to appropriate fit. Ive seen kids *actually* get injured off poorly made and fitting bodices at RenFaires and it's one of my biggest soap boxes.

 

But the real question really is ....the back or front lacing? Any opinions? I keep waffling.

 

And thank you for the encouragement. It, along with my slops results and the possibility that i will have a decent set of stays has put the wind back in my sails to get this all done!!

[Mary Diamond]

You really have done your homework, well done!

If you are going to purchase, I would inquire if it is possible to have the maker not insert the eyelets. This would allow you to set spiral lace eyelets.

Front or back lacing, to me, depends on your patience and flexibility, unless you are comfortable asking for assistance getting dressed. Event mornings can be a bit of a rush, and you may have to wait for said help. If you choose front lacing, you may wish to inquire if additional matching fabric is available to purchase, to make a stomacher (if you would like it to match).

If you are going to make your own stays, adjusting pattern length really isn’t all that difficult, requiring no math at all. You are simply splitting the pattern horizontally, and redrawing the top of the seam line to match the bottom of the seam line. Because they are straight or simple curves, it really isn’t that complicated.

And, at the end of the day, no matter the path you choose, these will most likely not be your last pair of stays. But you have put a good deal of thought, time, and potentially money, towards them, and it will show in an impression you can be proud of. Go forth and be brilliant.

[Tudor MercWench Smith]

1 hour ago, Mary Diamond said:

You really have done your homework, well done!

If you are going to purchase, I would inquire if it is possible to have the maker not insert the eyelets. This would allow you to set spiral lace eyelets.

Front or back lacing, to me, depends on your patience and flexibility, unless you are comfortable asking for assistance getting dressed. Event mornings can be a bit of a rush, and you may have to wait for said help. If you choose front lacing, you may wish to inquire if additional matching fabric is available to purchase, to make a stomacher (if you would like it to match).

If you are going to make your own stays, adjusting pattern length really isn’t all that difficult, requiring no math at all. You are simply splitting the pattern horizontally, and redrawing the top of the seam line to match the bottom of the seam line. Because they are straight or simple curves, it really isn’t that complicated.

And, at the end of the day, no matter the path you choose, these will most likely not be your last pair of stays. But you have put a good deal of thought, time, and potentially money, towards them, and it will show in an impression you can be proud of. Go forth and be brilliant.

Good idea on the eyelets! It couldn't hurt to ask and would certainly take away one of the downsides. 

The front closing do come standard with stomacher, so that is definitely a pro. It's also linen exterior instead.of cotton. 

I used to be able to back lace myself but i fear those days might be behind me. So, those all seem like deciding factors.

In other news, started a prototype on my first shirt. I have done about a half dozen various periods and styles of tunics which aren't all that different but every time I have to do the measurement thing i trip all over myself. Also gussets are pure evil lol

 

Thanks again for all the encouragement. For sure needed it after a hard prototype 

[Tudor MercWench Smith]

I went a'plundering today. 🏴‍☠️

Background....my husband works for/runs a company that makes and sells RenFaire costuming. He works primarily in their leather shop, but there is a fabric side too. This of course means i have little to no quality leather accessories for my kit because....well, the cobblers son has no shoes.

But it does give me access to materials and occasional long-abandoned prototypes.

I scored this satchel today. It looks more western then anything actually period, and I'm hoping to find a way to hide, if not entirely remove the zipper on the front pouch and i rather hate the color...But a Steward needs a bag of some sort to carry around notes, ledgers, maps, etc when on shore and you can't argue with the price of FREE!

 

But the better treasure from the evening was this bounty....

Fabric side of the business was finally after years addressing the overly large fabric stash and all these rolls were either earmarked as trash or "make me an offer". None of them are perfectly ideal....all however are at least majority cotton (rare finds in a pile of poly/nylon/acrylic nightmares) and could function quite well for remaining projects. Close ups....

 

Lightweight, two layer, cotton (almost handkerchief weight if it wasn't doubled). Maybe some decent/passable shirts that won't be quite as comfy as linen but would give some variety to plain white. Maybe could do a pair of pants out of it. They'd be a little too light but would probably be comfy.

Double faced, heavier weight, but with almost silky feel, making me suspect not 100% cotton, but it burned pretty well that it's gotta be majority so. The cream color looks a bit dingey and the mystery content gives me doubts on breathability but a pair of stripped slops would again, be a nice reprieve from plain natural linen in color. Not sure lavender stripes are overly period or piratical but sometimes a girl just wants to look pretty while leading a boarding party.

Similar aesthetic to the last but tagged as 100% cotton Essex. Probably to heavy to make comfortable pants. But maybe a jacket or waistcoat. Definitely a bag for my camp mat to make it look more ye old matress-y.

This is my fave find for the night though. Heavy cotton but a more homespun, almost dobby-like lose weave, in a lovely nautical blue. Should make a great sailors jacket.

Definitely cotton. Definitely canvas. Not sure of treated or coated with anything. Kind of a wonky hand. Might not use it for anything other then patterning, prototypes and interlining, but it was earmarked for the trash otherwise. Save me buying butcher paper and bed sheets for the process.

And all of these roles are full, or at least like 3/4 full. So more yardage then i could hope to get through and all basically for free!!

Otherwise no real project updates. O did get my linen cut for my shirts after ironing out some process kinks with my prototype. Did also extend the back opening on my finished trousers, just a little bit, and have been flat felling my interior seams to reduce fraying when i only have time/space for hand sewing....

 

Well, a cup of tea and more sewing awaits me....

[Stynky Tudor]

Excellent score! Loving the striped ticking/quasi canvas materials and nice job on the britches.

[Mary Diamond]

12 hours ago, TudorSmith said:

Double faced, heavier weight, but with almost silky feel,

You may wish to consider this for a mantua, with a darker colored petticoat and stomacher, matching ribbons for hat and shoes…

12 hours ago, TudorSmith said:

Definitely cotton. Definitely canvas.

Depending on stretch (ideally, you want none for stays), the canvas may be good for interlining layers of stays, jumps, etc., as well as great for things like slops, market wallets, ditty bags, snap sacks, cargo bales… 

 

12 hours ago, TudorSmith said:

I scored this satchel today. It looks more western then anything actually period, and I'm hoping to find a way to hide, if not entirely remove the zipper on the front pouch and i rather hate the color...

Perhaps simply add a new flap which entirely covers the previous flap and reaches past the zippered compartment? Or remove the zippered compartment, separate and reuse the front to make a pocket front instead.

 

Great finds! You cannot go wrong with free.

[madPete]

12 hours ago, TudorSmith said:

Otherwise no real project updates. O did get my linen cut for my shirts after ironing out some process kinks with my prototype. Did also extend the back opening on my finished trousers, just a little bit, and have been flat felling my interior seams to reduce fraying when i only have time/space for hand sewing....

 

Nice job! the tie back is meant to have a small gap to allow adjustment.

All that fabric, would make great waistcoats. you have projects set for a while now!

[Tudor MercWench Smith]

11 minutes ago, Mary Diamond said:

You may wish to consider this for a mantua, with a darker colored petticoat and stomacher, matching ribbons for hat and shoes…

 

Omg! That would look fantastic wouldn't it!!?? Might be too ambitious to get done for September which I'm really just focusing on the basics for,but afterwards.....goodness knows there is enough fabric on the roll to do several!!

 

15 minutes ago, Mary Diamond said:

Depending on stretch (ideally, you want none for stays), the canvas may be good for interlining layers of stays, jumps, etc., as well as great for things like slops, market wallets, ditty bags, snap sacks, cargo bales… 

I'm going to cut off a chunk of it, and of a similar black roll that i didn't take, and wash them up to see if the hand softens at all that they could be functional slops. As is, it's very stiff - like full on duck cloth feel. Barring that, definitely thought snap sack and interlining as well. Didn't think cargo bale though. Or made up to look like a stack of sails perhaps? Eventual day shade perhaps?

[Tudor MercWench Smith]

24 minutes ago, madPete said:

Nice job! the tie back is meant to have a small gap to allow adjustment.

All that fabric, would make great waistcoats. you have projects set for a while now!

I feel like adding it helped with the overall structure too.. where the seam was meeting the gap on the waistband just kind of sat funny and looked a bit janky and not overly securely sewn. This definitely makes it sit better, look more finished and tightened everything up. 

[Tudor MercWench Smith]

Pulled the trigger on purchasing stays from Samson yesterday afternoon, around 2:30 pm and they are already here!!

(Please excuse the woefully un-period shirt that it was tried on over, and the terrible bathroom selfies)

Did end up with the front lacing for ease, and because while I'm not a fan of the buttery yellow, it was better then pristine white and was linen. I ended up not asking to get them without the grommets because i wanted them to be returnable if they didnt fit, and i wouldn't really know of they did or didn't till i could lace them up.

Quality is absurdly excellent. Stitching is beautiful, everything is neat. They call them "half-boned", which was doing me a concern, but there are about 25-30 steel boned in them, not counting the stomacher, which i feel is pretty full. 

Fit is as perfect as you can hope to get with ready made, standardized sizing. Only complaints on fit is, if it were custom, I'd want them nipped in on the sides under the arms, as my ribcage is ridiculously tiny compared to all my other measurements. I've got a few inches till closed, which looks perfect with the stomacher and also means if weight fluctuates at all I've got some room either war. Stylistically i would prefer slightly longer tabs, but oh well, built in bum rolls lol! How they sit and fit is similar enough to the old Elizabethen style stays i used to wear waaaay back in the day that I'm confident i will be fine comfort-wise wearing them all day. 

All in all....this has given me absolute peace of mind. I will have foundation garments that fit, suit, are accurate-adjacent, and that will not nice, not sloppy, poorly fit or constructed. I was having nightmares about looking like the dweeb in the lopsided, too long, too loose and unsupportive stays.

If i get the rest of my sewing done, i might revisit making a second pair, but for now the stress I'd off and i can just enjoy my other projects.

Speaking of, shirt pieces are all cut. Tried thread pulling to get those perfectly straight lines but I'd probably rather spend the time plucking out my hair, it would be less painfully tedious. 

Neck opening has been hemmed down, currently working on hand sewing in the sleeve gussets.

Have i mentioned I *hate* sewing gussets...

 

[madPete]

2 hours ago, TudorSmith said:

Pulled the trigger on purchasing stays from Samson yesterday afternoon, around 2:30 pm and they are already here!!

 

 

Have i mentioned I *hate* sewing gussets...

 

LOL. I use to hate attaching sleeves to coat bodies. Did so many it didnt bother me anymore. but the old consternation on the shirt sleeves came back briefly. Looks like you have jumped in the deep end of the pool and made a splash. Good for you!

 

[Mary Diamond]

On 6/17/2023 at 1:23 PM, TudorSmith said:

Fit is as perfect as you can hope to get with ready made, standardized sizing. Only complaints on fit is, if it were custom, I'd want them nipped in on the sides under the arms, as my ribcage is ridiculously tiny compared to all my other measurements.

Congratulations, it looks like a beautiful set of stays! Hopefully the armseye is comfortable- they look very well made.

Great progress!

[Tudor MercWench Smith]

Shirt update....we have sleeves. Pretty pleased with how they look. Things I've learned in this project so far:

1) gussets are actually less awful to put in by hand. Who knew!?!

2) actually taking the time to put in a decent gather really elevates everything about a project and I'm so glad i took the time to learn how to do it efficiently. These things actually look like some decent sleeves and I'm a big fan.

3)flat felling seams is oddly cathartic, keeps your insides tidy and just adds a level of je ne sais quoi to the overall aesthetic of a project. 10 out of 10 would recommend. 

Up next is sleeves to body, body to collar and then finishing touches like reinforcement patches at all slits, then a final hem. Not sure exactly what order though. 

After the shirt is done, I'll move onto a jacket. After which, i will officially have a full set of clothes. For all our sakes though, i will then repeat the process, only hopefully faster.

 

[madPete]

Looks top notch!

[Mary Diamond]

Beautiful work, you should be very pleased!

[madPete]

I'm just finishing up a couple sleeves of different fabric.

[Tudor MercWench Smith]

6 hours ago, madPete said:

I'm just finishing up a couple sleeves of different fabric.

That is a great checked pattern! Just enough visual interest without being too busy.

Out of curiosity, once your sleeves are done, do you attach them to the body before or after you seam up the sides of the body. All my instructions are saying do you the sides first then the sleeves, but my brain keeps telling me to leave the sides open, put the sleeves on then close it up. 

[madPete]

I attach them first, being careful to start them on center of shoulder. Then I finish the sides. then the neck opening and collar

 

This material was really hard to find (actually anything 100% linen and checked). It was expensive when I bought it several years ago, but seems like a deal today. I really like this material. and my shirts dont all look the same then.

[Tudor MercWench Smith]

1 hour ago, madPete said:

I attach them first, being careful to start them on center of shoulder. Then I finish the sides. then the neck opening and collar

 

This material was really hard to find (actually anything 100% linen and checked). It was expensive when I bought it several years ago, but seems like a deal today. I really like this material. and my shirts dont all look the same then.

Good to know! I did the sides up on lunch today just to keep moving along and following directions but i will definitely give it a try that way on the next shirt.

I've noticed the same about any stripped or checked linen. Burnley & Trowbridge has some nice patterns right now though if not a terrible price, but their stock often seems hit or miss with what's available 

[Tudor MercWench Smith]

So the shirt has pretty much all of its major construction done. Sleeves went on yesterday. Gathers came in nicely and gussets sat in the seams perfectly. Only problem is the shoulder is sitting way to low arm. I know its supposed to come past the shoulder point a bit, but I'm sitting about only three inches above the elbow, which in turn makes the gathered arms look like weird elbow puffs, and pulls the gusset too far away from the body.

I had intentionally given myself additional width in the body so that it would have plenty of room through the chest and waist, but didn't think it would throw the shoulders that far off kilter. 

I'm going to get the collar on before i panic and seam rip the sleeves off and the sides open it take it in though. I feel the gathering into the collar will pull the shoulder/sleeves up at least an inch or two - i know when i did a 16th cent smocked German hemd, when i gathered and smocked the collar, it pulled the sleeves up so much they ended up being 3/4 length. These are cut longer to start, and will be less intensely gathered, so should pull that much, but i feel like expecting some rise on it is reasonable.

[madPete]

Shoulder seams are typically below the shoulder on this style shirt. Depending on how you do the collar, a large slit with reinforcements will bunch up the material and pull the shoulders up a little. But thats generally they way they fit unless you went way overboard on the width.

[Tudor MercWench Smith]

50 minutes ago, madPete said:

Shoulder seams are typically below the shoulder on this style shirt. Depending on how you do the collar, a large slit with reinforcements will bunch up the material and pull the shoulders up a little. But thats generally they way they fit unless you went way overboard on the width.

They were a bit excessive.... almost down to my elbows. Taking in the collar did raise it up about an inch, but could probably raise up another inch and still be appropriately below the shoulder. Trying to decide if that inch is worth the seam ripping and restitching, especially when i could just shrug it off and say that it's a shirt i "borrowed" off a man with broader shoulders then mine so obviously the fit isn't perfect lol

Otherwise i tried on the slops, shirts, stays and wool coat together and .....it works. It definitely works!

[michaelsbagley]

Fully agree (with madPete's above assertion)... most of my period shirts (and my wife's shifts) the shoulder seam falls about at the bottom point of my shoulder (which almost can be drawn in a same line as my arm pit).... I get a little variety on this within a few inches either way, but that is something unusual to get used to for correct period fit.

Of possible use/help, Bernadette Banner (popular YouTube costumer) did a video on making shirts this past week (and references an earlier vide on the topic as well). While the shirt she is making is definitely later period, most of the techniques apply. Hopefully this might be of help/use to you.
 

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by michaelsbagley

[Tudor MercWench Smith]

9 minutes ago, michaelsbagley said:

Fully agree (with madPete's above assertion)... most of my period shirts (and my wife's shifts) the shoulder seam falls about at the bottom point of my shoulder (which almost can be drawn in a same line as my arm pit).... I get a little variety on this within a few inches either way, but that is something unusual to get used to for correct period fit.

Of possible use/help, Bernadette Banner (popular YouTube costumer) did a video on making shirts this past week (and references an earlier vide on the topic as well). While the shirt she is making is definitely later period, most of the techniques apply. Hopefully this might be of help/use to you.
 

 

Oohh....i will have to check that out. I used her pirate shirt video, with some other adaptations as cross reference in the original making so this new video might also provide insight. 

Ive made the very executive decision that while it's probably sitting an inch or two too long still even from accurate fit (I'd say about an inch or so below armpit level) it's not worth pulling them out to redo them. They will be mostly covered by jacket sleeves etc and I'd rather just move on to my second shirt and know to adjust accordingly on that one.