Tartan Jack

As this issue is obviously a hot one any has been brought up in various threads in the last 6 months, Just how "ethro-centric" WERE the Brits in the GAoP? WOULD they have, generally, adopted stuff from natives? What about from the Spanish and the French, Dutch, Germans, etc.? We all know of the English vs. Scot/Irish/Welsh/etc biases and how it was handled WITHIN British society. So, What is the LIKELYHOOD of pirates adopting stuff from other cultures? Are there SOME parameters wherein adoption was common, to the exclusion of the norm? (Such as military tactics, equipment, ship characteristics, and the like) I would LOVE to hear the opinion of our experts. So, ARE we too "English-language" focused in our studies and research? How relevant is looking into other cultures? If highly, WHICH ones are the most important for our limited time (for one to know about what WOULD be relevant). I mean, one could study Japanese Samurai tactics, BUT it really ISN'T relevant in the Wars of Independence in Scotland and Wales (Wallace, Bruce, and Douglas period), even if contemporary. I'd LOVE to hear your thoughts.

????????? OK, I am dense. ?????????

12 is a bigger version of whatever 13 and 14 are.

For the oblivious, the Thundermug is being fired on the bottom right by the guy numbered as 1. The other ones are VERY interesting too. What is the source of that illustration?

i wasnt implying that.i was simply stating a point- that being authentic is cool but you have to draw the line somewhere and admit that you arent really an 18th century pirate,no one is. this forum claims to cater to historical AND fantasy, but everyone here seems very intolerant of anything not historically correct.if someone joins here and just does this as a hobby,and has a life in the 21st century,they are not taken seriously.so im not gonna bother posting on this forum anymore because i do know its pretend. ill still browse and look at pictures and get info but thats it. you should just change the site heading to state that this is for serious reenactors only and not for fun. OK, I am still a "newbie" on here, compared to most others. On this forum, the "Twill" section is STRICTLY about reality/accuracy/history. IF something/ANYTHING is in THIS section, it is takes in regards to history and what was REALLY done, esp. in the Golden Age of Piracy (GAoP) of about 1715-1725, or so. The others, such as "Pop" and "Plunder" are WIDE open as to fantasy and make-believe. Things are RATHER different on the other sections, with a MUCH more loosey-goosey atmosphere. The "up-tight" ones in this section will "hold their tongue" in those., but not here. For example, props from Pirates of the Caribbean (PotC) WILL get critiqued as to accuracy and whether of not they are precisely "period correct" for the GAoP. In almost ANY other section, one gets comments on quality of reproduction, looks, the "Pyle" pirate look, and the like. (search "Barbossa" "pants" in twill and plunder and wonder at the differences in the comments (sometimes even by the same people). THAT is one of the things I LIKE about this particular forum, it ISN'T ALL fantasy NOR all history. Please, keep posting all you like. The only caution is to remember which section you are in. Kass, you do realize that the comments aimed in your direction were in just, I HOPE I LOVE your work and VALUE your opinion HIGHLY.

Take it from the lady who has made a CAREER going NUTS over details and making PERIOD CORRECT patterns when the piles of others weren't QUITE accurate enough. If SHE says its going a BIT to far, it probably is. Don't me Kass. And STOP TRYING TO LOOK UP MY KILT AND PAY ATTENTION!!!!!!!!

The heart with flames is one that is generally a Roman Catholic symbol, rather than one used by "protestants." I've seen similar ones also, without the flames at the top of the heart. The anchor was seen as significant for 2 reasons: 1) The stalk and upper arms (NOT THE CORRECT NAMES) resembles a cross, so it was used as a representative cross during persecutions and when a proper cross was not on hand (they also used swords-> with the point down and the arms formed by the cross-guard. 2) The anchor itself is a Christian symbol of "the anchor in a storm" that fith provides, giving security to life and to keep one from fumbling and floating away. The anchor keeps one in place and provides stability. (A bunch interested in sailing should be able to "get" the symbolism). As for the age, that precise illustration might be "modern," but the IDEA and symbolism is MUCH older. Side question: Why would someone not a Christian WANT to use a cross or a cross based symbol? It is just something I don't understand. I would not WANT to emblazon myself with symbols STRONGLY associated with a religion I don't follow, so a non-Christian getting a cross tattoo is something I just don't get. Anyone want to explain it to me? (PM is fine) (This side question is not related to anyone in particular, but this thread reminded me of this question I have had for years.)

First matter: the movie It WAS based on a REAL series of events. In the movie, they postulate it was a lion covered in armour. When I saw it (told to watch it by SEVERAL inc. BOTH brother in laws-> originally I had ignored it as so much science fiction), I did some research on the background. It was VERY interesting. Contemporary theories were ALL over the place, with MOST thinking it was some sort of GIANT wolf. The large cat-theory seems like a rather plausible solution. Whether it was trained to kill (like and evil Sigfreid and Roy) or just someone brought a kitten home with them and "released" it when it got bigger (see below). The modern News: There now seem to be a NUMBER of wild cats found in the wild when they USED to be extinct. There are wild cats now in Britain, which there has not been in centuries (from what I understand). In my OWN area, there used to be panthers/mountain lions, aka catamounts-> Cats of the Mount-ain, a large brown/tan cougar-like indigenous large cat, but it was officially extinct. THIS is the ORIGIN of the Carolina Panther football team name, though the local panther was brown and the team used a black one as a mascot. There were occasional reports of them being seen BUT no bodies or recent skeletons, so it was seen as a "mountain myth." HOWEVER, there are now REAL reports, sightings, and even KILLINGS of BLACK panthers, esp in the mountains west of Charlotte, but expanding south and north along that Aps. I've heard/seen reports of the "return of the mountain lions," but I have doubts that these cats have ANYTHING to do with the indigenous cats. MY postulation (and one a number of experts ALSO came to) is that people BOUGHT (illegally) cute and cuddly black panther kittens in honor of the football team. However, as the cats got bigger, their owners could no longer afford the large amounts of food. So, they did the "humane" thing and released the cats "back to nature." The PROBLEM, however, is that the cats were/are NOT NATIVE and do not have a natural territory nor place in the food chain. Therefore, the natural balanced was altered by the introduction of a top level predator into a people-heavy "nature" where folks hike, camp, etc. Most of the European things are likely similar matters, esp cats from the 60s/70s that their owners could not really afford to feed, so they were released. I also seem to recall a similar rise in the popularity of large cat kittens in the late 90s/early 2000s. So, I would postulate that the NEW problems are THOSE cats and their descendants. The British wild cat seems to be a new breed from the interbreeding of various types of wild cats in the "Wilds of the Isle." SO, what do bo the rest of ya'll think of that?

I'll agree with Kass here. No evidence to the contrary is NOT evidence FOR!!!! Also, it is BEST to operate as the most common, not the rare when doing reenacting. Ren-faires/LARP/and fantasy are a WHOLE different matter. For Example: As MUCH as I'd LOVE to have evidence for tartan kilts (or belted plaids) being worn by pirates in the GAoP, there simply ain't NONE that I have seen. So, I WON'T/CAN'T wear one during reenactments, even though they were COMMON DURING the period in the Highland of Scotland. In fact, I could just swap my belted plaid for slops when jumping from Jacobite to Pirate. The REST of the kit is largely the SAME (including the JACKET), BUT there is NO evidence of disposessed Jacobites-turned-pirate WEARING kilts in the Caribbean. So, It must be "out," even IF I wanted to argue "period" (which it IS). -The term "kilt" here refers to the "philabeg" (I prefer to just call it a "kilt," though it is not the tailored knife pleats of today) as seen in "Rob Roy" (advised by kilt/tartan expert Peter MacDonald http://www.scottishtartans.co.uk/ )

In the first film, they used one that was a shell on a barge. I don't think was even a very full one at that. In 2 and 3, they built one on the hull of a functional diesel ship. SO, it was an actual ocean-going SHIP, that operated under its OWN power. It was not actually a functional square-masted tall-ship. I'm sure the film crew members on here can provide MUCH more detail than that. As such, small details are probably different, BUT the overall look should be VERY similar.

Disney had a heads up about the original picture last year. The only thing shopped in was Depp's face. The rest is all that lad that wore it to conventions and such like. So . . . It looks like I was RIGHT! (Pats self on back )

Looking at the picts, I am beginning to wonder . . . WAS the first pict actually OF Sithcamaro and then had the face of Depp added in by photoshop? The hands and everything else looks DEAD ON in lighting, shading, and grain. Only Depp's face looks different (and then only ever so slightly). The costumes also look IDENTICAL! Are those shots of the same costume and the same hands, but with the first having an altered face?

Looking at THAT site, it seems that a yellow flag HAD been used previously (in the later middle ages) for Q. It was reinstituted by 1800. It cites a white flag both for Q. and to signify the cleaning of a port (in Hawaii) in 1710. So, I would not feel safe saying a yellow flag meant Q in the GAoP. Also, a yellow flag with the coiled snake was proposed by Gadsden of South Carolina as the ensign of the US Navy commander in 1776 (or so). IF yellow had the Q association among sailors, I would be surprised at such a proposal. That flag WAS adopted popularly and used HEAVILY by the patriot troops and militia, becoming the de facto state flag of South Carolina for a while. (NOT proof, just interesting in light of the discussion) Also, Foxe has stated that contemporary sources cite yellow as a very/the most common color for pirate flags during the GAoP, but a color that fell out of favor soon afterwards (when black became the virtual standard). (Search for info on flags for info on yellow pirate flags).

The show was OK. It was the "normal" stuff on John Rackham, but with historians doing the talking. Angus Konstam talked on it QUITE a bit. I didn't look to closely at the kit and ships (busy dealing with kids). Overall, NOT BAD! I'd watch it again gladly.

So, WHAT is that made from? How HARD is it? I have some ideas that "popped" into my head, but am not sure how it might work.

The main version is MUCH, MUCH worse than that on the "Rogue's Gallery" CD, which was a bad enough version on its own right. (look it up on google) Thanks for the links, advise, and lyrics. This is an interesting thread!

Be sure to AIM for the BUCKET BOOTS!!!!!

From what research I have done: The PERIOD flags were a VERY light, but strong form of wool known as wool bunting (the significance s in the weave, which is unique to bunting). NONE of the GAoP flags survived. Of the ones described, most are JUST of the insignia and a couple mention "silk." NONE specifically state that the main pirate flags were canvas, except as a VERY temporary measure. In history, it is usually safest to go with general practice than to postulate what "might" have been done that deviate from "normal," esp. when PERIOD sources make little to nothing on anything unusual. People tend to ONLY note things that are "odd" PRECISELY because they are DIFFERENT from norm. So, we can sermize (sp?) that most were wool bunting, like the REST of the flags aboard a ship. Thus, for a MODERN recreation of an OLD flag, the SAFEST thing to do is either find VERY light wool OR use a modern light cotton (as most of these will not ACTUALLY face wear and tear of a sea flag). As for how to attach the insignia, the most easily to argue is the applique (sewn on). Period descriptions of flags also talk about people PAINTING stuff onto flags. However, we MUST remember that often that painting is dark on light rather than light on dark (older paints were often not as opaque as modern ones). Now the TYPE of paint, I have read a number of opinions, but have not reached ANY conclusion as to WHAT was used then, so have NO IDEA as to a modern equivalent. Many use modern artist acrylics, esp. as they are easy to use, relatively light weight and opaque, cheap to get moderate brands, and generally water resistant ONCE DRY. I have materials to make a couple flags of my own design. One of them is some light, but stong plaid cotton purchased for an uncompleted project. The rest are black and deep navy wool (I THINK I also have some red too) in a light weight, but not actually bunting (as far as I have found, NO ONE makes bunting anymore). On these flags, I plan to use applique techniques for the white portions and other large areas, with artist acrylic paint on the black (maybe a few touches of other colors). The plaid flag is for "Tartan Jack" and will have a skull and crossed dirks (in imitation of the Scot saltaire). The others are for more "historical" style designs.

Later, they used yellow flags for quarantine, but I THINK that came just AFTER the GAoP.

Hell with the pardon, ask for a Letter of Marque!!! Coastie :angry:

I would . . . But the wife would KILL ME with it! So would the town mayor, who lives DIRECTLY behind me. I'd be twice deid! (BUT, It would be OH SO FUN to aim it (with LIVE ammo) at the MAYOR'S YELPING AND BARKING MUTTS, I mean DOGS!!!!!)

William Wallace 100% Maximus 83% Indiana Jones 83% Batman, the Dark Knight 79% Captain Jack Sparrow 75% Lara Croft 75% YEP, THAT about summed it up! More like:

For the sake of usage: (I know it is from the MOVIE "Rob Roy," BUT Peter MacDonald, one of the premier kilt historians was the one who came up with the costumes. As far as movies go, it is pretty good.) Just to show what the relevant STYLE of sporran would look like in an period-appropriate dressed highlander. Note also, It is HUNG from his BELT by a long strap, NOT a "sporran strap"!!!

For Disney, where there is money . . . there is a way. (At least that is my impression. Those that work for the MOU$E, please feel free to correct me.) (I MISS the days of Walt, when values and quality drove the company, rather than what ever makes the most $$$$- )

"Picts" is a tongue-in-cheek variation I picked up many, many moons ago. With my real interest in early Scottish (Albanach-> "of Alba" the old name for Scotland in the "native" dialect) history, it just cracks me up and people STILL get that I mean "pictures." I do separate my silliness from my serious study of history. The devolpment of the kilt from the belted plaid is VERY interesting and are the many questions on the Picts and how the interacted with the Scots, as the Scots come over from Ireland and "invaded" the Picts' land. Now, back to topic.