Tartan Jack

After seeing WHAT ELSE you've done . . .

I'd be surprised if you couldn't just get an appropriate-for-application katana and mod the hilt . . .

(I am also now curious as to how a katana fits into the "Patrick Hand Mythos")

You might have better luck asking in PLUNDER (the thread right below this one)....

In Capt. Twill, we will argue about how proper for thier time period they are.....

Now the real question is:

Are they proper for their period?

By that . . .

I assume "their period" is GAoP (early 1700s)-> 1713-1725.

In Capt. Twill, we will argue about how proper for their time period they are.....

He is right.

question at the end of the movie why is the hispanic captian raising black beards flag

As for historic associations:

http://www.bonaventure.org.uk/ed/flags.htm

(Ed Foxe's site)

In short, MOST of the famous "pirate flags" have a dubious historical connection with their attribution.

ALSO, elsewhere in this Pop section, it was mentioned that at one time the "Pirate Lords" were to be based on "historic" GAoP pirates.

As said above, Billy Bones developed a number of "concepts" and Gore chose the ones he liked, for artistic reasons.

So, don't read to much into which flags are on which ship. It is all part of the "fun" of the film.

Thanks!!!

So, Billy, just HOW many flags did you ACTUALLY make "full size?"

According to Marty the mystery of what Tia said from the script is as follows:

"Malfaiteur en Tombeau, Crochir l'Esplanade, Dans l'Fond d'l'eau!"

Translation:

"Across all the seas, find (search out) the path to he who wrongfully entombed me!"

(shrug) Well.... I suppose the internet could know more then the writers.

I asked The guys and that was what they told me.

She said nothing.

Maybe the answer is somewhere half way between..... I'll let them know they are getting old and cannot remeember what they wrote.

These were linked on a kilt forum:

http://www.pyrate.org/sporrans.html

It is familiar to me, but can't remember who makes them.

Any form of response is fine, I just have a few questions from some to shy to ask.

Has anyone seen/have a pic of Jack Sparrow's flag at the end of At World's End?

I remember it is based on the "Avery" Flag with the sparrow from Jack's tattoo in red.

I am looking for a grap/pic/image of the flag used, so I can see the details (head straight or cocked back/bandana/wrap all the way around or like Jack's/etc).

My google searches have turned up NOTHING.

im designing my colors right now,and was just wondering if there are any rules - number of colros,subjects,etc, and also wondering abut the size ratio.i want it to be authentic- looking. you guys' look awesome so i figure youre all experts.heres a sketch of my idea. let me know what you think- creative criticism is welcome

so does mine look ok? i havent seen any others with an anchor so i have my doubts.i have made minor changes to the rope.

Well . . .

There are 3 different approaches for that question:

1. Use only historically PROVEN flags, as seen:

http://www.bonaventure.org.uk/ed/flags.htm

-Produces VERY accurate Pirate ensigns

(Ed uses a simple skull as a "death's head," while some argue that a "death's head" included crossed bones as well, much like on a poison bottle.)

2. Use the PARAMETERS of historical references:

-A. LOOK at what is KNOWN and OBSERVE contextual contemporary DESCRIPTIONS of the pirate ensigns for a PARTICULAR period, with the oberservation of colors and symbols.

-B. Look at CONTEMPORARY art, esp ensigns, tombstones, and "folk art" (things a typical seaman would see, recognize, and be able to create) to get a "feel" for the WAYS and MANNERISMS that people viewed the images described in A.

-C. Design a flag that works within the parameters identified in A and B.

-D. Result-> personalized flag that is "fitting" for the period being portrayed.

3. Design one that fits WHATEVER YOU WANT.

-This may or may not be period correct, but is quite "FUN" to design and create.

There are various hull designs and rigging. In movies, the designs are similar, but noticably differesnt too.

Much like many can't tell exotic sports cars apart ann call them ALL Ferraris.

What got me was the sililarity in look, design, and many of the details.

Of course Captian Blood was a significant inspiration (along with a number of classic pirate films) for POTC, that design similiarities are NOT surprising.

Now . . . the Question is: Would a particulsr hull design be approppriate for a particular period??

I was watching Flynn's Captain Blood and noticed that the ship he steals from the Spanish looks rather like a ship fought over by Sparrow and Barbosa.

Look and see for yourself!!!!!!!!!

I thought in DMC they said Jones cut out his own heart because of the pain he felt from being betrayed by his love. He's never stopped loving her, that’s why he didn’t want the chest on his ship.

DING DING DING!!!!!!!

One of a NUMBER of inconsistancies in the PotC series.

It just seems to me that there were just too many hands in the pot and convolution of the plloting, writing, and shooting. Things just "POP" up, that really are not really anyone's fault in particular, but in the final cut of a trilogy.

I saw the film last night.

I actually enjoyed it. They tied MUCH MORE of the loose ends than I expected.

It made a decent "hollywood" movie.

I have an odd take on "history" films. I am a trained historian, but have a family DEEPLY entrenched in the arts and the film industries. My uncle is an ASC member (and the youngest to every recieve as many of their award nominations in a single year), my brother and 2 cousins went to film school and we are ALL film NUTS. So, I tend to look at movies 2 ways at the same time: 1) Is it a good film? 2) Is it good history?

Now, back to POTC, it is a good film, in what it pertains to be. I think they went got a bit infatuated with CGI and lost much good writing (which makes me long for the censor days, when writers had to write around sex and violence instead of just make it as graphic as possible-> it lead to some VERY GOOD writing and subtle enuendo). MUCH more could have been done with the calypso/Jones relationship and characters. They also lost Jack's "sly" edge from the first movie and made him more of a lucky nut. They also missed an AMAZING chance at a MASSIVE naval battle. There were also WAY to many "backstories" that needed to be explained at LEAST a WEE bit more, esp Jack's relationship to Beckett and the EITC and Jack's relation to a NUMBER of other characters. Actually, there was probably simply WAY to many important characters by this point (in contrast, for example, to another popular trilogy: the ORIGINAL Star Wars one.)

Visually, the ships, costumes, weapons, flags, and ALL the rest of the prop and art department stuff was BEAUTIFUL. I enjoyed the "name the flag" when they "hoisted the colors" (whether or not the associated pirates themselves would even recognize ANY of them.

From a historical side: It was SO far "off" as for me to put that aside and just enjoy it.

Several days later and eline de lussac has yet to post a second time.

SO, I have a feeling it was a "spam-esque" hit and run.

It was AT LEAST theme related and does not SEEM to be $$$$ related.

PLEASE, eline de lussac, respond IF you EVER look at this thread again????

remember there's nothing new under the sun... and I believe D. W. Griffith had his own twist on that little saying...

Just remember, one of the most FAMOUS versions on that phrase (probably NOT the first) is from Song of Songs/Solomon, written approx. 3,000 years ago. Just as true today.

I am looking forward to it. Maybe it will make 2 better and seem a bit less wandering (tie in loose ends that seemed superflous to the plot and drive of 2).

CRASH

(me throwing my brain and concern for history through the glass and out the window)

THANKS!!!!!!

I see a project on the near horizon (probably a few-> to hold gear and "kilt stuff")!

OK,

Third times the charm . . .

Works now, go figure . . .

So Dorset buttons -- great for upper class frock coats and shirts. Wrong for Slop Contract gear.

Also be aware that thread buttons are not specified in the Slop Contracts until 1724. The previous Slop Contracts that mention buttons at all (1706 and 1717) specify brass or white tin, not thread. Are you portraying that late?

THANKS!!!!!!

THAT is MOST interesting and helpful.

Maybe . . . it's just the Mac thing,

BUT all I get is the skull/bones logo!

...but I hate Dancing with the Stars. It would be more suitable during Lost, but that show airs around midnight these days so nobody would see it.

Disney should just give up on premeiring it on ABC and play it during American Idol. I personally hate that show, but I know everybody else and their pet monkey watches it...

A friend of mine LOVES that show

and he has a pet monkey (a REAL monkey)

they actually BOTH chain smoke cigarettes as they watch!

I actually watch him and the monkey FAR more than the show. A chain-smoking monkey is FAR more interesting, exciting, and excitable than American Idol.

I am NOT kidding!!!!!!!!!!

Golden Hind

Guilding that rear end MUST have HURT!!!!!

My point: don't THINK Blackbeard (OR MORGAN), THINK Drake.

Precisely! Golden Hind not Queen Anne's Revenge.

Put another way: Elizabethan period, not Georgian. Ruffs not cravats.

NOR the English Jacobean . . .

(James I (VI of Scotland) through the Charlies and the numbskull James II (VII)

What I can say is that it reflects many of the popular MYTHS about the period and piracy.

It is good to KNOW what the myths are, so when we are faced with them, we know EXACTLY what the people are talking about. Thus, we can phrase our answers in a way to avoid the myths without it being as "THAT'S BULL!!" (even if it is). In that way, we can correct by informing without embarassing.

That is how I deal with many of the Scottish myths and legends, such as what "Tartan" means (technically the material, not the pattern), the sett (the pattern), and their age, meaning, and the age and historic development of the kilt (NOTHING like what was in Braveheart has EVER been seen in anything CLOSE to that period and the garment itself is SO far off a belted plaid/great kilt as to be laughable).

Knowing the misconception helps me avoid unintentionally embarassing someone actually interested in the matter (and thereby angering them in the process, so they are "fight" mode and not "learn" mode). Knowing the misconception can prepare me for addressing it in public in a manner that takes out the underlying thoughts FIRST, then I can "take the wind out of thge sails" of the error, and refill it with REALITY!

(The same thing applies to other things, ESPECIALLY RELIGIOUS ISSUES-> which is enough off topic, I'll go no further. I'll just say that I INTENTIONALLY watch programs I SEVERELY disagree with to listen to the arguement and see WHY it is incorrect and the thought process behind it. Thus, when I meet someone who actually BELIEVES it, I can understand it an deal with it in a careful, logical, sensitive, and helpful manner.)

EXAMPLE:

Pirate flags:

"Aren't they neat. I especially love the X,Y, and Z ones. To bad there isn't any period documentation for most of them." Then I can discuss WHICH ones are proven and which are not.

INSTEAD of:

That's crap! Rackham (or fill in name) never flew that!!!" Then it opens a heated arguement.

Film-wise, it is the period of "Sea Hawks" (Errol Flynn), though I can't say whether or not the film costumes are accurate or not.

Just FYI -- the costumes in "Sea Hawks" are wrong. They vary from a little wrong (wrong period or mixing periods) to VERY wrong (completely made up by the costume director). Don't use it as a visual reference. It's is very VERY Hollywood.

But I love the movie... You just can't beat Errol Flynn!

Here are some great pictures of my favourite Elizabethan living history group, Bonaventure:

Click on Gallery and then on Elizabethan.

Thanks,

Like I said, I didn't know. The good/bad part of when it was made is that the costumes and set (sometimes just dressing on a "standard" set) is REAL hit and miss. Some are amazing, while other are as bad as Braveheart (one of my favs anyways) and Robin Hood:Prince of Thieves (proof to me that Cosner is NOT a great actor) and all in between.

Kass, if you say it and unless I KNOW it to be wrong (yet to happen), I trust your statements.\

My point: don't THINK Blackbeard (OR MORGAN), THINK Drake.

Just to get a "mind frame" on the period, think "Spanish Armada," Francis Drake, Hawkins, and so forth.

Film-wise, it is the period of "Sea Hawks" (Errol Flynn), though I can't say whether or not the film costumes are accurate or not.

Hollywood-wise, that particular period of film making is actually better most give credit for. They had HUGE costume manufacturing departments and historians working with the producers and directors.

Brief Aside:

The accuracy for a particular film depends largely upon the studio's priority and where and when the film fell among the other productions. Some had a whole plethora of costumes created for them with incredible accuracy. They would then reuse these costumes on other productions. If the later films were higher priority, they got the good costumes. Another film made at the same time would have to make do. Additionally, the directors/producers could/would IGNOR the historians on staff and choose costumes for "look" rather than accuracy (so that varied WIDELY). Flynn's "Robin Hood" is actually considered one of the best of all time for repesenting the costumes of the late 12th C. and around 1200. Some of the Robin Hood costumes (I've been told) are still in circulation among costume houses and used for all sorts of periods where they were NOT correct. I'm sure the film experts among us could baffle and amaze us at what they know on current Hollywood, as well as the past.

Most pop-culture pirates are MUCH too late for the period in question, so try and get them OUT of your thinking COMPLETELY!

Morgan was latter 1600s,

GAoP (Teach, Roberts, Rackham, Reed, Bonny etc.) was EARLY 1700s!!!