POTC:DMC Soundtrack

[Caraccioli]

The tune from the music box is familiar.  Is it the tune from "Anastasia"?  Does anyone know?  I know it is played again when the credits roll, but alas we did not stay for the finish.

"Anastasia"?  Good question!  It may well be a variation on that melody.  Are there any Slavic music majors in the house?  I've only dealt with late Russian pieces.

I just replayed the soundtrack recording, and it's striking how the tune goes from the delicate and intensely sad Slavic melody to the ever-increasingly angry melody played by Jones on the organ.  It spirals outward and upward, carried by the orchestral accompinament, to painful heights, underscoring the abysmal sorrow Jones feels for his lost love.  You can hear the pulse of his heart thoughout the latter portions of the piece, perfectly illustrating what a tragic character Jones really is, so desperate to feel anything, but all he can feel is pain and rage.  It condenses back to the small, lonely tune played by the locket, intensifying the sadness of the piece.  Most unsettling is the ominous chord that resonates softly under the melody of the music box.

I do not know the answer to Mad Woman Cheryl's question, but I'll bet the music is remniscent of another composition rather than directly borrowed. I noticed that much of thos music is remniscent of something else or directly borrowed. Most of directly borrowed stuff is from the first soundtrack - sometimes the borrowed stuff is appropriate, sometimes not. Many of the uses are just plain odd.

Take The Kraken track. I like this track and it gives the Kraken it's own ponderous motif, although it is interwoven with some organ music - music that sounds vaguely like the old Phantom of the Opera organ music. (Not Webber, the old Phantom organ music). Now this is weird. What does the Kraken have to do with that? Had you put it in the Davy Jones track, it would have made sense - it could even be a clever in-joke. Regardless, it does work and it's a good track that fits the monster. (How would you even begin to write a motif for a giant squid? Answering that musical question is in itself worth a nod.)

Then there's the stock circus trapeze-like music in Dinner is Served. It's not so much odd as it is overkill for Jack's pole-vaulting slapstick. I suppose in the framework of the movie it works, but as a standalone piece...but then you get into a whole different debate on the topic of standalone vs movie-dependent music. So let's not go there. The circus stuff is appended to some new music for the cannibals: all new, aw-ful. (My least favorite track - well, excluding the uninspired Tiesto Remix.)

They also have decided to re-use the motif from the Underwater March at the beginning of the Tia Dalma track. Why? Because there's water and it's mystical? They do save the track using hints of Davy Jones' theme and some pretty good vocal/orchestral stuff at the end. There's also the clever insertion of the "crew becoming human and Barbossa dying" music from the first movie. Wink wink.

Probably my biggest complaint about re-using POTC:CotBP music is where they dredge up the motif for the medallion in Family Affair. I like the tune, but it should have been retired with the first movie. I suppose they decided it was about the only thing they could tie to Bootstrap, but still... No medallion, no medallion motif music!

Ok, enough whinging. This is a pretty good soundtrack for the most part. So let me share my favorites:

Two Hornpipes (Tortuga) is really good stuff. Again, it's reminiscent of a lot of period stuff that you've heard, but you can't quite identify. It's slightly manic, fun, bouncy music and it fits the atmosphere of Tortuga. My only complaint (and it's a small one): Why didn't they use something like this in the first movie? That would have made it an ideal segue between films.

The tune from Davy Jones track is used all throughout the album. This makes sense and it's a strong, recognizable tune, so it works well. The actual track itself repeats the basic melody six times, including two bookended "music box" tracks. This really highlights him as an unfortunate character, so I expect we'll see some form of redemption in the next film. The music builds and continually changes key throughout the 2nd through 4th renderings of the theme. Very nice. Then they do this really sparse "heart beat" version as Mad Jack mentioned. I love it when they use the minimalist musical approach to a restated theme.

Wheel of Fortune is a slick chase piece that incorporates all the best elements of the soundtrack. For the price of admission you get glimpses of Jack's theme, Davy's theme, even a bit of the Kraken's theme (not sure why). It contains some nice violin work in the background of several of the themes. It also incorporates the best of the sword fighting music from the original album. This is the way to borrow from the old film!

My favorite track is Jack Sparrow. They did something really strange with this IMO. They took the music from the scene in CotBP where Jack and Will were moving underwater in the rowboat and basically declared it to be Jack's theme. (This music is from the misnamed track Walk the Plank in the CotBP soundtrack (At least half the tracks are misnamed in that soundtrack - I suspect when POTC:CofBP became a hit, they were caught unsuspecting and unawares and wound up bringing it to market in a mad rush.))

What's odd - and this may just be to me - is that I will always associate that music with the kid fishing from the pier in Port Royal. You know, the one watching incredulously as the lobster trap Will has gotten tangled with underwater goes bobbing by. Up 'til now, Jack's Theme was his introductory music in CotBP in my mind.

Jack Sparrow is a great takeoff on the boy fishing thing that's been enhanced with a terrific new ending. It starts off with a saucy, insouciant double bass treatment of the new theme, totally appropriate to the androgenous characterization. Much of the song features a lighter sound than both boy fishing music and Jack's introductory music thanks to dancing violins. It also contains hints of Jack's introductory music from the first movie (proving I wasn't completely off base). Some nice driving "chase style" music fills out the middle. It restates the new theme in several musical voices and winds up with the original saucy version that cresendos to a satisfying climax.

The CD is worth owning IMO. I found the first soundtrack to be quite nuanced which caused tracks I didn't care for at first to grow on me. This CD has a similar sound and the layered music usually appeals to my tastes. If it weren't quite so derivative, I suspect I would consider it to be as excellent as the first soundtrack.

[Captain_Jack_Sparrow]

What I find most amazing is the fact that Hans Zimmer adapted the music from Klaus Badelt's Soundtrack from CotBP, making it wholly different yet wholly recognisable.

[Capt. Lazarus Gage]

I really enjoy the soundtrack, and as to the question of the music box melody, it is definately not the music from Anastasia nor a derivative of it, which was actually barrowed from "A Christmas Carol" and was originally entitled "You...you".

[Mission]

What I find most amazing is the fact that Hans Zimmer adapted the music from Klaus Badelt's Soundtrack from CotBP, making it wholly different yet wholly recognisable.

It's not really all that amazing. Zimmer produced the first POTC soundtrack, so he should have been very familiar with it and involved in creating it. Compare POTC to the soundtrack for The Rock (where Zimmer was one of the composers) if you want proof - particularly the Rock House Jail and Hummel Gets the Rockets tracks.

From what I've read on the soundtrack site where I hang out, Zimmer's a bit of a glory hound. He has a whole stable of up and coming composers to whom he farms out projects that he doesn't want to compose himself. He probably even farms out parts of soundtracks he puts his name on as composer as well (a recent trend in soundtrack composition.) I don't think anyone expected the first movie to do as well as it did, so he farmed it out to Badelt and put his name on as producer. Now the sequels...well they're a bit more high profile...

[Black Hearted Pearl]

I have to agree. I'm betting that Zimmer didn't think the first was going to be successful and delegated it to an apprentice. Now that the apprentice was successful with along with the film, Zimmer wanted it back.

I don't care for the second soundtrack as much as the first. Zimmer is incapable of creating the nuances that Blaudet did on the first. Almost all the tracks are dark with little understanding of the dark humor that coincided in the first one.

I hope Zimmer takes the critisism (sp?) constructively and lets Blaudet have some control back on #3.

[blackjohn]

I don't have this latest soundtrack, but I do know this... I have Hans Zimmer's Thin Red Line soundtrack, and his Black Hawk Down soundtrack, and there are one or two songs between those two that are very similar. It's as if he liked one theme so much, he took it and expanded on it for another soundtrack. Maybe this is just another case of the same?

[Caraccioli]

I don't have this latest soundtrack, but I do know this... I have Hans Zimmer's Thin Red Line soundtrack, and his Black Hawk Down soundtrack, and there are one or two songs between those two that are very similar.  It's as if he liked one theme so much, he took it and expanded on it for another soundtrack.  Maybe this is just another case of the same?

Most notable composers do have a recognizable sound - I can often spot a John Williams soundtrack from a quick listen to a song from it. (I can name that song in three notes!)

My original point was that although Badelt is named as the composer, Zimmer had more than a passing knowledge of the score for the first movie as its producer. As an example, I noted the similarities between it and the soundtrack for The Rock.

[The Doctor]

Excellent point! I can spot a John Williams, or Jerry Goldsmith, or Danny Elfman score a phrase or two into a song. Composers have fingerprints, and always will. So did Copeland, Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Ralph Vaughn Williams, etc.

And does anyone find the requiem tone of "Hello Beastie" a bit hard to listen too?

[Caraccioli]

I don't care for the second soundtrack as much as the first.  Zimmer is incapable of creating the nuances that Blaudet did on the first.  Almost all the tracks are dark with little understanding of the dark humor that coincided in the first one.

I hope Zimmer takes the critisism (sp?) constructively and lets Blaudet have some control back on #3.

It's sort of hard to say what in the first soundtrack was a result of Badelt's influence and what was Zimmer's without having been involved in its production.

I don't care for this soundtrack overall as much as the first one either, for the reasons noted above. From my listening so far, however, I think in some places the second soundtrack actually improves upon the first.

Jack's theme should have a light sound, because Jack is a essentially a light character. The Kraken has a weighty, ponderous, yet occasionally quick-moving sound that fits the monster. And Davy's theme is imposing, yet tinged with melancholy. I like them.

I do find some of the latter songs to be sort of lacking for various reasons. As of this moment, I think tracks like Hello Beastie should have been far more interesting and textured and than they were. (The exception being Wheel of Fortune.) However, I didn't much care for some of the latter songs in the first album when I first heard them, yet as I listened they grew on me. So it's difficult to say.

One thought that had occurred to me when I read your post was about Two Hornpipes (Tortuga). As much as I like it as a standalone song, I remember thinking it was too light for the chaos onscreen during the movie. I go back and forth on movie music as a standalone entity vs. a slave to the movie action, so it's hard for me to be objective on that point.

[The Doctor]

I took Two Hornpipes as a nod to the old Western flick, when the piano player would strike a cheery tune when the barfight breaks out, as if a lightheated ditty will somehow calm the combatants.

One of the things I found really enjoyably funny about the Tortuga barfight was Jack roaming about the place looking for a replacement hat, all the while being narrowly missed by flung drinks, bodies, furniture, etc. Much like Cyrano Jones in "The Trouble With Tribbles".

[Captain_Jack_Sparrow]

Aye but we must remember Neither Badelt nor Zimmer composed two hornpipes as I recall it is a traditional, if not traditional sounding, pirate peice by Skip Henderson.

[Caraccioli]

I took Two Hornpipes as a nod to the old Western flick, when the piano player would strike a cheery tune when the barfight breaks out, as if a lightheated ditty will somehow calm the combatants.

That's an interesting way to look at it. I just remember being struck by the justaposition of this cheerful music and the dunking of the mayor and surrounding chaos. I'd forgotten about that until I read Black Pearl's post.

[Caraccioli]

Aye but we must remember Neither Badelt nor Zimmer composed two hornpipes as I recall it is a traditional, if not traditional sounding, pirate peice by Skip Henderson.

I didn't know that. It would explain why the music is so different in tone and sound than a lot of the other music. Curious...yet another piece of borrowed music.

[The Doctor]

So 'tis the legacy of music; borrowed, built upon, copied, incorporated, covered, stolen, reimagined, blended, stripped, ripped, and paid homáge to. Creativity is filtched and repackaged every day, usually without benefit to the creator.

[Ace of Harbor Bay]

Disney DID buy the rights to another of Skip Henderson's pieces to be used in the first film but it ended up not being used.

I'm happy Skip's stuff ended up in the second film as it fit well with the silly bar fight atmosphere.

Many here probably already know of Skip but for those that don't you can find some of his stuff here: Billy Bones and Other Ditties

[The Doctor]

The question has been posed; "How do you write a theme for a monster like the Kraken?" Exactly as Zimmer did it. Write music to decribe the ominous feelings about the monster, and the chaotic nature of it's attacks. Write about what it can do, not so much about what it is. That's more palpable to the audience, and will elicit a more visceral responce. "If you want to make me feel the panic and horror of this monster's attack, don't describe the monster. Give me only a passing description of the thing, and play it up as a monster. Describe the attack, and it's effect on the crew!"

Zimmer did this in spades.

[Caraccioli]

The question has been posed; "How do you write a theme for a monster like the Kraken?" Exactly as Zimmer did it. Write music to decribe the ominous feelings about the monster, and the chaotic nature of it's attacks. Write about what it can do, not so much about what it is. That's more palpable to the audience, and will elicit a more visceral responce. "If you want to make me feel the panic and horror of this monster's attack, don't describe the monster. Give me only a passing description of the thing, and play it up as a monster. Describe the attack, and it's effect on the crew!"

Zimmer did this in spades.

Yes, Zimmer did a nice job. As I said previously, answering the question of how to do this is alone worth a nod. The track gives the monster it's heft (which you want to impart), speed (another important aspect), and the reactionary chaotic and horrific elements you mention.

I still think the Phantom-ish organ music is slightly out of place. It would have been an awesome thing to incorporate into Davy Jones theme, but that would have changed the structure of that piece - probably not advantageously.

[The Doctor]

Throughout musical history, the toccata has been a powerul expression of musical agony and angst. For Zimmer to have drawn upon J. S. Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor shows his understanding of the public's musical savvy. It's visceral. Almost animal in it's nature. They hear these sounds emitted from a mighty organ, and their blood runs cold. They see Davy Jones' anguish as he plays; his hurt, and his desperation to feel anything but agony, and his hatred for anyone who can feel what he can't. Zimmer nailed it. :)

[Caraccioli]

Throughout musical history, the toccata has been a powerul expression of musical agony and angst. For Zimmer to have drawn upon J. S. Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor shows his understanding of the public's musical savvy.

You mean he stole that too? Is anything good in there not borrowed?

[Captain_Jack_Sparrow]

Disney DID buy the rights to another of Skip Henderson's pieces to be used in the first film but it ended up not being used.

I'm happy Skip's stuff ended up in the second film as it fit well with the silly bar fight atmosphere.

Many here probably already know of Skip but for those that don't you can find some of his stuff here: Billy Bones and Other Ditties

Man I want that Album...

[Captain_Jack_Sparrow]

Throughout musical history, the toccata has been a powerul expression of musical agony and angst.  For Zimmer to have drawn upon J. S. Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor shows his understanding of the public's musical savvy.

You mean he stole that too? Is anything good in there not borrowed?

Even if there wasn't would it truly matter?

The Man has done a fair number of stand alone and original peices

[The Doctor]

Throughout musical history, the toccata has been a powerul expression of musical agony and angst.  For Zimmer to have drawn upon J. S. Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor shows his understanding of the public's musical savvy.

You mean he stole that too? Is anything good in there not borrowed?

Look, composers steal from composers. As long as a composer steals from a good composer who's long dead, what's the harm? People get the "Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor" auditory reference without knowing it. They see a really big pipe organ, and a villanous character playing it, so you get this "Phantom of the Opera" vibe, yeah? It's not a rip-off, per se. It's a Dennis Miller-esqe musical oblique reference to deep public consciousness tweak that says "Ooooh, this guy's off his nut with anger!"

Yeah, it's a circuitous route, but it works!

[Mission]

You mean he stole that too? Is anything good in there not borrowed?

People get the "Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor" auditory reference without knowing it. They see a really big pipe organ, and a villanous character playing it, so you get this "Phantom of the Opera" vibe, yeah? It's not a rip-off, per se.

Yeah, it's a circuitous route, but it works!

Oh, I misunderstood - I thought you were referring to sections of the music other than the Phantom of the Opera stuff. (While I own more soundtracks than I can count, I have never been very interested in classical music. Well, except Gershwin who basically did soundtracks from what I hear when I listen to him.)

I still think it would have been far more appropriate to Davy Jones. The Kraken is just a big monster, Jones is the soul twisted by madness. He's more phantom-esque. Layers within layers of meaning.

[Captain_Jack_Sparrow]

You mean he stole that too? Is anything good in there not borrowed?

People get the "Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor" auditory reference without knowing it. They see a really big pipe organ, and a villanous character playing it, so you get this "Phantom of the Opera" vibe, yeah? It's not a rip-off, per se.

Yeah, it's a circuitous route, but it works!

Oh, I misunderstood - I thought you were referring to sections of the music other than the Phantom of the Opera stuff. (While I own more soundtracks than I can count, I have never been very interested in classical music. Well, except Gershwin who basically did soundtracks from what I hear when I listen to him.)

I still think it would have been far more appropriate to Davy Jones. The Kraken is just a big monster, Jones is the soul twisted by madness. He's more phantom-esque. Layers within layers of meaning.

Well when you think about it, the only one able to control the Kraken is Davey Jones. Davey's Theme is puncuated by the pipe organ, and intermittantly in the Kraken's peice the pipe organ is heard, to me this symbolizes, that same sort of forboding evoked in Jones' Track, and the Kraken seems to further personify the rage and anger of afore mentioned Davey Jones.

They're linked, Master and beast, so it would only make sense that bits of Jones' Personality would be personified in the terrible beastie that he alone controls.

Also, go see the film again, and listen closely, Kraken's track is used whenever Jones' or his crew are doing something generally nasty. [that being whenever they appear on screen]

Thats the way it works with film, reoccuring themes to help set the mood, that in essence is what a soundtrack is meant for, not only to drive the scene, but make it sunconciously recognizable as a "threat" to the audience and to give the film more depth.

Oh also its very hard to find a soundtrack these days that hasn't borrowed music in some fashion, even if they are just in the credits, take Anchorman: The Legend of Ron Burgandy, or There's Something About Mary for instance, the soundtrack is nothing but borrowed music.

Of course there are those that are original, such as John William's Scores or James Newton Howard, but as you said its easy to pick out which peices are theirs as they have a generally noticable style, so in essence they're borrowing from themselves, which is still borrowing mind you.

[Cpt Sophia M Eisley]

I have to agree.  I'm betting that Zimmer didn't think the first was going to be successful and delegated it to an apprentice.  Now that the apprentice was successful with along with the film, Zimmer wanted it back.

I don't care for the second soundtrack as much as the first.  Zimmer is incapable of creating the nuances that Blaudet did on the first.  Almost all the tracks are dark with little understanding of the dark humor that coincided in the first one.

I hope Zimmer takes the critisism (sp?) constructively and lets Blaudet have some control back on #3.

I agree on your thoughts BHP. I enjoyed little pieces of DMC's score (liked the organ theme you all have mentioned), but not enough to consider purchasing it. As brought up here already, much of it sounded like it was lifted from the first movie. That's not to say doing such a thing is bad. I was expecting to hear something that was a better mix, blending some of the more popular portions from the first movie with something new that fit the darker feel. I didn't walk in with that expectation, but felt it afterwards.

Out of movies I have seen, I've felt John Williams has done an

awesome job of taking parts of his previous scores (Star Wars: ANH

and Superman as examples) and sneaking them in to sequels. He

blends them in seamlessly, and for me, when I hear those familiar

parts, I get goosebumps.

Out of curiousity, what did you all think of the music used when Davy Jones' crew came out of the water (looking for the chest)? I felt there was a startling difference between it and the majority of the rest of the soundtrack. Some part of me started to recall the score from Thunderdome...I think it would have fit quite well with that.