GAoP patterns teaser

[kass]

Historical Tailor? Hector, I thought you were a Captain!

Well... it sure looks like a capote, but it also looks like a thicker version of a banyan. I don't want to say it's not made like a capote. But what are capote based on? Native American garments? I'll have to look that up.

Perhaps I'm coming at this question a little strangely. I'm always trying to figure out how something is made. And the surest way to figure that out is to find out where it comes from. So the question really is -- where are these people and did they bring their clothing from home or get it from the natives?

That would give me a better basis for a guess.

But until then, I stand by the idea of making a banyan-like object. It's a very simple construction and I'm not sure the capote isn't the exact same garment at base.

[Red Maria]

(except I don't want my boobs a bout to fall out of my shirt    ).

And you, the soul of indecency..........

Got to try harder, Lass.

Hawkyns

Just because I'm the Soul of Indeceny it doesn't mean I want to be arrested for it Hawkyns!

[Red Maria]

I know my constitution could stand a fifth. You buyin'? Your choice: a fifth of vodka, a fifth of rum or a fifth of whiskey!

I'd hold out for a fifth of single malt if I was you girl :)

[kass]

Yeah, but a fifth in the hand is better than... oh boy...

[Fox]

Oh Kass, here we go again... woohoo!

Reminds me of a beautiful mother of pearl inlaid 19th century stud tin I once owned. I saw it in an antique shop and had to buy it because of the motto on the lid: "A stud in the hand is worth two under the bed"

I don't know offhand where those seamen are, but I may be able to find out tomorrow if I remember. Without further information I would suspect that the garments came with them from France. People of the GAoP were often slow and reluctant to take up new ideas, especially from native peoples, and where it happened it tended to be as a result of longish contact (just been reading some fascinating stuff about the white indians of GAoP era Virginia...). Seamen tended not to have that prolonged contact, particularly seamen on a circumnavigation, and where we find them making use of native ideas it tends to be purely out of expediency. Now, these seamen would have had overcoats when they left France, and the difference in colours makes it clear that they are not native garments per se, at least not garments associated with the natives in that picture. But I will see if I can dig up any more information on specific location tomorrow.

[kass]

Thanks, Ed. That will indeed add some depth to this discussion (God knows it could use some!)

Seriously though, taking into account what you've said, it's still possible that they're wearing Brandenburgs (great coats). They were very popular in France and mimicked Eastern European coats (which in turn mimicked Middle Eastern garments which mimicked Far Eastern...).

So if they did bring them from France, it's probably that they were Brandenburgs. What is that, RH706?

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Hector

Anyone have a link for 100% finely ribbed silk?

You would need to look for Grosgrain of Faille silk. I SEARCHED the freakin' globe for mine (my purple justaucorps is 100% silk grosgrain.

When you can find it, its bloody expensive.

Try Here

http://www.henrybertrand.co.uk/fashion/pro...prodcode=GRO105

They carry it, but only sell to the "trade".

Liberty in London had some really nice tomato colored grosgrain, at about $300 a yard. I found mine at a small silk shop in London that was going out of business.... it was still expensive though.

AND

You need a whole lot of it to make a Justaucorps!

GoF

[Slopmaker Cripps]

Umm let's see here....they're cut like trousers and not slop-hose.

The details are hard to put into writing, but we'll see what we can do. The rear of the pattern was cut similar to breeches of the period, though the legs were extended down, a little more fitted than the latter versions. The pockets were just a cut in the shape of a triangle or house (depending on the guy you're talking about) that were then used to make pockets like normal. The artist did not sketch the sideseams on the trousers, though it's damn near impossible (or extremely hard if you'd prefer) to get that kind of fitting (especially on the outer thigh area) without one. I'm estimating them circa 4 inches above the top of the ankle bone. The width of the trousers below the knee is the same as the measurement just above the knee. They look like they bell out due to the nature of these guys leg muscles and the way they're standing. These are not to different (except for the small details such as the pockets) from the 1730's period "long" sailors trousers that came a decade afterward. Just a few notes. Also, If you want to know what happens when you just elongate the slop-hose pattern, watch "Treasure Island" with Charleton Heston. That's what they're wearing when they're making way. Accurate....haven't seen anything close yet. There's a distinct cut to trousers that you won't get by just narrowing and elongating a slop-hose pattern.

Cheers,

Adam C., Slop-man

Edit note- The comment on the width of the trousers being the same as just above the knee applies to the guy on the far left of the picture. The sailor that's speaking to the "judge" appears to have a slight (we're talking 1-2") expansion at the hem than the circumference just above the knee.

[Capt. Sterling]

Thanks for the silk link.

This is the second coat to date and I had wanted to get it as close as possible, but it looks like I will have to go with a regular dupioni for the lining for now. Need to have it and all its silver work done by the beginning of Feb. I will have to see if they are willing to give out a list of the retailers they sell to. In the meantime, I've sent for some samples of Ottoman silk, it too is ribbed. So it may come a close second... not that I want seconds... I also appreciate the actual name... so far, I've only come across the description and not the proper title. Does anyone know if this type of silk is in the American textile book??? mine is still in a packing box some where!!! Thanks again.

Hector

and yes Kass... captain to play, tailor to afford to play.

[Bunnycutlass]

I be wanting a blue Pirate coat, rather tight in certain spots, very much like the blue coat on the first couple o' posts! I may be out in yer neck o' the woods in Aug. Ifin I can wait that long without stealin one!

[Patrick Hand]

Well... it sure looks like a capote, but it also looks like a thicker version of a banyan. I don't want to say it's not made like a capote. But what are capote based on? Native American garments? I'll have to look that up.

I'll have to look up one of the references that I have on Capotes.... but I remember that there were differences between what the Indains made, and what the Whites made.... the Indain version was more boxie, where as the White version was slightly tailored.... with a two part sleeve instead of a tube..... Like I said... I will have to look up the reference again......

[Capt. Sterling]

"It was among this latter class that a distinctively Canadian costume gradually developed. Made by themselves; from materials grown on their own farms, and woven by their own firesides, the gray )homespun of the habitant attained the importance of a national costume, and in the 1837 period became the symbol of French-Canadian opposition to British bureaucracy and economic domination. It was admirably suited to the conditions of habitant life: a double-breasted coat of blanket cloth reaching to the knees, with a hood which could be drawn over the head in cold or stormy weather, thick cloth breeches tucked into high boots with moccasin-shaped feet, made pliable by soaking in oil, - the famous bottes-sauvages, or "beef boots", - a tuque or woollen cap of bright colour, and a sash made of stout linen threads of yellow, red, blue and white closely woven in an acute zigzag or arrow pattern, wrapped in wide folds around the waist and hanging down at one side where the ends terminated in a long fringe. This ceinture flèchée, or "assumption sash", as it was sometimes called from the town of L'Assomption, which was a centre of its manufacture, was perhaps the most characteristic and original article of Canadian costume. It was woven in the home by the young women, and was worn by the habitant, the voyageur, and the student of the seminary. Like all the products of folk-culture, this costume was the growth of time; but as early as 1666 there is mention of the rough blue coats and tuques of the militia in Courcelles's expedition against the Iroquois, and an engraving in La Potherie (1722) shows a figure of a Canadian on snow-shoes, wearing a long-skirted coat which may well be the forerunner of the later capote. "

From the History of Quebec site....

Hector

[Capt. Sterling]

http://members.aol.com/ConConsul/ppbs.html

Hey Foxe if you go to the above link and scroll down you will see a fellow in a red blanket coat/capote(french for hood). I realize its a later time frame but it does come close in idea to your print. If the Canadians had them as far back as 1666-1675, perhaps the french had something similar like in your print. I know the British Army used them during the Rev. War when they were stationed in America and Canada. I suppose if you really wanted you could get in touch with some historians in Canada or the Peguot(sp) History Museum and Research center... they actually have a class that teaches how to make them.

Later,

Hector

[Fox]

Thanks Hector!

As I was reading that I was thinking "great! If I get this gear together I can do 1700 French seamen and 1837 French Canadian simply by changing my hat!"

My only concern about the back-dating of the capote from that info is that the "rough blue coats" of 1666 might be nothing like capotes at all. I'll have to see if I can lay my hands on the later print mentioned.

What really surprises me about that picture though is that nobody has yet mentioned the long boots those French seamen appear to be wearing. I guess Petee's not reading this thread...

(Actually, I don't think those are anything like bucket boots as we perceive them, they're shorter and look much softer, but I'm still surprised nobody has brought it up)

[Capt. Sterling]

Yes, I totally agree they may not be at all. Unfortunately the site did not have that print posted but they obviously have one. Maybe you could get them to send you a copy. I was just intrigued by the fact that they mentioned it could be a fore runner... I hope maybe it helps direct your search.

Hector

[kass]

What really surprises me about that picture though is that nobody has yet mentioned the long boots those French seamen appear to be wearing. I guess Petee's not reading this thread...

(Actually, I don't think those are anything like bucket boots as we perceive them, they're shorter and look much softer, but I'm still surprised nobody has brought it up)

Colour me particularly resistant to the pirate mythos, but I just assumed they were cloth hose.

Boy, you can take the woman out of the 15th century, but you can't take the 15thc out of the woman...

[kass]

I be wanting a blue Pirate coat, rather tight in certain spots, very much like the blue coat on the first couple o' posts! I may be out in yer neck o' the woods in Aug. Ifin I can wait that long without stealin one!

If you want a pirate coat like Bonny and Read's, you won't want it "tight in certain spots", me darlin'. They were aiming to look like men!

[Fox]

I wondered if they might be some kind of gaiter, but if you look closely at the picture they're all in one piece, including the foot, and the guy in the middle has got heels on his. I'm pretty sure they're boots, but they're not the stiff tall bucket topped boots so beloved of "pyrates"

This picture from the same series shows them a little more clearly:

[kass]

One more...

[kass]

You know, Ed, they remind me an awful lot Highland trews. You know, the kind that are gartered at the knee and they have the effect of being baggy above the knee?

I'll see if I can find a picture...

[kass]

Let me try that new cover again...

[Capt Grey]

These patterns are definitely a labor of love, Kass. And we are SO LUCKY to have you making them available to us.

I'll definitely be checking your web site when they start going on sale. :)

[Fox]

I think they're soft and they definitely look like they've got some form of tie at the knee, but the heels are a dead giveaway.

[kass]

I may sound like I'm stuck on this 15th century theme, but they also look like 15th century riding boots -- they were turnshoes (no heels as such) with conical uppers that were secured to the leg with straps. They were very inefficient to wear once dismounted, however, and were typically removed.

But, as I said, they weren't heeled.

Curious, this picture...

More pattern covers to come before the end of the weekend!

[Fox]

I have a pair of 15th century boots like that Kass :)

You're dead right, they are a pain in the stern to walk around in, except when you're in armour. I always wear mine under my armour, better than shoes any day.

Anyway, those guys aren't 15th century.