hurricane Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 Wow, that was really interesting, thanks Mission. -- Hurricane -- Hurricane ______________________________________________________________________ http://piratesofthecoast.com/images/pyracy-logo1.jpg Captain of The Pyrates of the Coast Author of "Memoirs of a Buccaneer: 30 Year Before the Mast" (Published in Fall 2011) Scurrilous Rogue Stirrer of Pots Fomenter of Mutiny Bon Vivant & Roustabout Part-time Carnival Barker Certified Ex-Wife Collector Experienced Drinking Companion "I was screwed. I readied my confession and the sobbing pleas not to tell my wife. But as I turned, no one was in the bed. The room was empty. The naked girl was gone, like magic." "Memoirs of a Buccaneer: 30 Years Before the Mast" - Amazon.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 I didn't have time to read the whole page, but what I did read was interesting. I'm sure Exquemelin did have an Axe to grind with Morgan, I don't think Exquemelin really cared about the "lady",or Morgan's sex life. And of course he never was involved with any of the cruel tortures that the Buccaneers preformed.... I'd guess that he was peeved about the final share of the treasure and loot. Many parts of The Buccaneers of America are going to be sensationalized (that's what the public wanted to read), but I'm interested in some of the details of how the Buccaneers lived (that's why I have to take better notes next re-read, instead of just folding back the corner of the page... ) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 I personally think we should be happy about whatever details we can find from period sources. It is impossible to write something without bias. Still, you can't throw the baby out with the bath water. As I said before, Morgan asked for certain comments about him to be removed Exquemelin's book, not comments about a gun. Exquemelin may have had a problem estimating (or recalling) larger heights and lengths, but that doesn't mean everything he said must then be suspect. If you go back over Labat, he talked about a 4' long gun. Exquemelin talked about a 4-1/2 foot gun. It's remarkably close; we probably shouldn't just dismiss Exquemelin out of hand. Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littleneckhalfshell Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 I looked up the word 'gargoussier' and a lot of people say these didn't appear until the 1750s or even later. So to them. “[February, 1701]..... The clothes of these buccaneers simply consisted of a pair of trousers with a shirt worn over them fastened at the waist by a belt of bull’s hide. A sheath containing three or four long knives and a gargoussier [a container for cartridges] are fastened to this belt. ..... The gargoussier is a leather bag, ten inches long and six inches deep, and is used to carry cartridges....... These cartridges are now secured in the cartridge-bag so that they can neither be broken or bent. ” (Labat, p. 174-7) Great information. A question, Is the gargoussier a Cartridge 'bag' or a Cartridge 'box' ? I have seen the pictures of the Whydah Cartridge box and other's on the pub, I usually think of them as a 'military' kind of item. I have also seen pictures of people on the pub with what looks more like a 'bag' similar to the hunting pouch of the long hunters, akin to a modern ladies purse in a manner of speaking. Which would be the 'gargoussier' ? The suggestion that people say these do not appear until the 1750's makes me think the answer is that the gargoussier is more like the long hunters pouch. Yes? Second question, it says the "cartridges are secured in the cartridge-bag so that they can neither be broken or bent". I have seen how this is done in a cartridge box, with the little dividers, each cartridge in its own little hole, but how would it be done in a bag? Good discussion. No Fear Have Ye of Evil Curses says you... Aye,... Properly Warned Ye Be says I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 You have all the info I have, I'm afraid. (And if you know anything at all about guns, you have more.) Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 I looked up the word 'gargoussier' and a lot of people say these didn't appear until the 1750s or even later. So to them. “[February, 1701]..... The clothes of these buccaneers simply consisted of a pair of trousers with a shirt worn over them fastened at the waist by a belt of bull’s hide. A sheath containing three or four long knives and a gargoussier [a container for cartridges] are fastened to this belt. ..... The gargoussier is a leather bag, ten inches long and six inches deep, and is used to carry cartridges....... These cartridges are now secured in the cartridge-bag so that they can neither be broken or bent. ” (Labat, p. 174-7) Great information. A question, Is the gargoussier a Cartridge 'bag' or a Cartridge 'box' ? I have seen the pictures of the Whydah Cartridge box and other's on the pub, I usually think of them as a 'military' kind of item. I have also seen pictures of people on the pub with what looks more like a 'bag' similar to the hunting pouch of the long hunters, akin to a modern ladies purse in a manner of speaking. Which would be the 'gargoussier' ? The suggestion that people say these do not appear until the 1750's makes me think the answer is that the gargoussier is more like the long hunters pouch. Yes? Second question, it says the "cartridges are secured in the cartridge-bag so that they can neither be broken or bent". I have seen how this is done in a cartridge box, with the little dividers, each cartridge in its own little hole, but how would it be done in a bag? Good discussion. The "Gargoussier" according to French and Indian War re-enacting conventions is a leather covered wooden shot box. There is a French term (which escapes my mind at the moment) that according to French and Indian War conventions applies to a shot bag. As the F&IW conventions are more popular (being a period with MANY more re-enactors), it would make sense that there may be a bit of a propensity to want to keep those terms applied to the associated objects with that frame of reference... But I would be willing to bet money, that just like the English language of the buccaneer and GAoP, the earlier one goes, the more intermingled and interchanged the terms are. I would also suspect as well as there being a difference to what a 1680s Gargoussier (shot box) would look like versus a 1750s Gargoussier (shot box). So I wouldn't get too hung up in "Gargoussier = Shot box" (or shot pouch) mentality, as it is likely in the buccaneer era, it could very well likely just as easily equate to either a shot box or pouch on top of the designs for shot pouches and boxes being different from later 18th century periods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 I don't know if it's still there, but Pirate Brethren (Black John's page) had a good drawing of a French one, that's what I kind of based this one off of.... I think the original was a little longer, but I lost the picture when I had to fix the virus... OK... ignore the hammer, I don't have a socket bayonet.... I might change the powder flask's spout later.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hurricane Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 That's really cool Patrick. That's a nice piece of rigging. But I kind of like the hammer. :) -- Hurricane -- Hurricane ______________________________________________________________________ http://piratesofthecoast.com/images/pyracy-logo1.jpg Captain of The Pyrates of the Coast Author of "Memoirs of a Buccaneer: 30 Year Before the Mast" (Published in Fall 2011) Scurrilous Rogue Stirrer of Pots Fomenter of Mutiny Bon Vivant & Roustabout Part-time Carnival Barker Certified Ex-Wife Collector Experienced Drinking Companion "I was screwed. I readied my confession and the sobbing pleas not to tell my wife. But as I turned, no one was in the bed. The room was empty. The naked girl was gone, like magic." "Memoirs of a Buccaneer: 30 Years Before the Mast" - Amazon.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Awesome work as always Patrick... I was able to dig through the Brethren Archives and dig up the source picture I think you are talking about... I'll post a LINK to the Picture rather than the picture itself as the image is HUGE... There was also this inside view of the carriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoD Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 (edited) very cool. I think i remember reading an inventory that stated a hammer/hatchet could be carried in the part where the hammer goes too. The pictures in michaels post are from the same book that I got my picture of the colonial french swordbelt from. Thinking about it if thats the case maybe thats the reason for the hammer/hatchet as the belt holds a plug bayonet. Edited February 17, 2010 by PoD ...and then I discovered the wine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoD Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 I am looking for a piece of gator skin or some leather with a well made gator skin-type pattern on it for a special PiP auction project. Been collecting some hand-made butcher knives from flea markets, and found a really cool sharpening steel to build one of those cased knife sets that hangs over the shoulder.(from one of the buccaneer drawings) Still hoping to find an old purse, pair of old boots, or suitcase with that pattern on it. (cheap of course ) It'll have a hemp strap. You buccaneers will have to fight over it at auction, and I want photos! Bo Don't know if you managed to get your gator skin Bo but theres a couple of croc skins on ebay at the moment if you didnt. I am making one of the buccaneer knife blocks too but i got to thinking about the description of them. Were steels around in the days of buccaneers? I was under the impression that knives in those days were sharpened using a whetstone or grinding stone. ...and then I discovered the wine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 I was under the impression that knives in those days were sharpened using a whetstone or grinding stone. Yeah, I don't know the answer for that either.... I have to scan and post a picture from Weapons; a Visual History of Arm and Armorof a "Hunting Trousse"...It's German from 1662, but it give a good idea of what Hunters (well rich Hunters) carried... (yeah, I wanna make something like that also..) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoD Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 You are right I had missed that. I have that book too and the Hunting Trousse in there does indeed include a small metal file. I like the hunting cleaver set on the same page. That would make an interesting project. ...and then I discovered the wine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 Yah, that's the picture.... There is another Later period, (Buffilo Hunter) drawing in one of the Mountain Man Sketchbooks. If I remember correctly, it held two knives and a sharpining steel, and was much simpler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoD Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 Would buccaneers have carried snares or was their hunting limited to the gun? ...and then I discovered the wine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Bo of the WTF co. Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 (edited) I cannot put the steels in the boucanier setting, but they are around in sketches and artwork during that time. I have a print with a dutch woman in apron butchering a pig ca. 1720 with one hanging off the belt by itself, ther are at least two other instances I have seen them in artwork in a butchering scene from 1670-ish and an Italian kitchen scene *1650-ish.* How common I don't know, but this one is going to be boucanier anyhow. *edited* Bo Edited March 11, 2010 by Capt. Bo of the WTF co. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 Well... I'm getting closer.... I will post a picture, once I get a new battery fer the camera.... But dang... Searle's Raid was fun.... If ye wanna play Buccaneer, it's something ye should look into... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Bo of the WTF co. Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 It is also important to make note of the difference between whetting/sharpening, and honing a blade. The steel is used only to maintain the existing edge while working (honing), not used to create an edge or re-sharpen (whetting). That is done at the end of the day when you've done all the cutting you're gonna do, or if you lose the edge while working, which does happen and is a pain in the arse! Steels in earlier periods would of course not have been stainless as are the modern ones, and so far I have not found anything regarding crock sticks prior to the late 19th century. The steel I have is old ferrous iron and not stainless, and has a very old antler handle and cast pewter fittings. I may end up keeping this rig myself once it is finished, and I think I'm just going to use pig or cow-hide as that was the most common leather available to the Bucc's, and little evidence(if any) of gator hides being used exists. Bo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 OK, I bought new batterys for my digi-cam, but the pictures Mission took were much better...so I stole two of them... This shows my Buccaneer garb and camping stuff from Searle's Raid... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoD Posted December 16, 2010 Share Posted December 16, 2010 I just came across an interesting Dutch book from 1700 while looking around Google Books called "Historie der boecaniers of vrybuiters van America". It's got a pretty interesting picture of a Buccaneer on the title page: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-IdbAAAAQAAJ&pg=PP7&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U1ilZ_UGLuD-u-AdOGEn1ULTMdJQg&ci=80%2C29%2C890%2C1132&edge=0 http://books.google....epage&q&f=false ...and then I discovered the wine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuisto Mako Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 So, did any of you have worked on their hunting trousse "boucanier" style? Any chances of seing some work in progress pictures? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoD Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 So, did any of you have worked on their hunting trousse "boucanier" style? Any chances of seing some work in progress pictures? Mines coming along quite well but i just need a skinner to complete the knife set. I'll post some pictures soon ...and then I discovered the wine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Just a kinda quick question..... I'm kinda wondering... well why bother..... no one knows why I'm dressed funny.... or the time period...it's not PoTC.....It's starting to wear me out... I like the time period (even tho no one knows it) But .... well.. sorry... But i'm getting ...... well.... bummed out.... So how much longer do I play.......? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Bo of the WTF co. Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I know what ya mean. I gave up the pyracy thing altogether. Can't make it work out here in the middle of the country and everyone that sees me in colonial land-lubber garb calls me pyrate anyhow. Too few care (general public and rondyvooers too) anyway. I'm broke, burnt-out, and just don't have the drive to get out and do it anymore. I wore one of my outfits to school to teach the lesson on the Declaration of Independence to mostly 10th graders, and it wasn't much help. Sure they were interested in asking questions, but when ya start talking about how it really was, the lights just went dim. I don't know what to say brother. You'll have to make that decision on yer own. I'm pretty well done with it myself. just gonna try to be a good teacher and enjoy the horses til I can't ride no more. Think I'm gonna invest in another bike when I get to work and just ride. I ain't much good at socializing anymore anyhow. "Warning: Bo does not play well with others." Bo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hurricane Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Just a kinda quick question..... I'm kinda wondering... well why bother..... no one knows why I'm dressed funny.... or the time period...it's not PoTC.....It's starting to wear me out... I like the time period (even tho no one knows it) But .... well.. sorry... But i'm getting ...... well.... bummed out.... So how much longer do I play.......? I understand your plight. Doing true buccaneer is hard because to do it right, you have to become something few people recognize. They didn't look like pirates. They were primarily soldiers who learned how to hunt in the old style. It is self-limiting, without drifting into stereotypes of even later periods. They didn't look like pirates in even the GAoP sense. At events, it's just the freakish looking people over in the corner, the ones any public stays away from because they 1) don't understand the difference between buccaneers and pirates and 2) it doesn't look very appealing. These guys lived hard lives. When on campaign they marched for miles through dense jungle. They killed and ate what they found along the way. They were filthy, their clothes bloodstained. They may wear the same thing for a year or more (I know I'm generalizing, but I really don't want to get off my arse and dig up the books on Morgan right now). Patrick, you've done it the best I've seen. But ultimately, you have to ask yourself if it's fun for you. That's really why all of us do this, regardless of interpretation - from line towing re-enactment and getting the perfect kit to being the flamboyant stereotype kids love. It has to be fun, otherwise there's absolutely no point in spending your time, money and creative juices on it. So, in short, find what jazzes you. Quite frankly, I'm increasingly drawn to steam punk because it's pure fantasy with no one able to say, "that's incorrect, they never would have done it that way." There was no "that way" in it. That alone has some appeal. Good luck, fair winds and you'll figure it all out. You've come such a long way from the first time I met you at PiP. -- Hurricane ______________________________________________________________________ http://piratesofthecoast.com/images/pyracy-logo1.jpg Captain of The Pyrates of the Coast Author of "Memoirs of a Buccaneer: 30 Year Before the Mast" (Published in Fall 2011) Scurrilous Rogue Stirrer of Pots Fomenter of Mutiny Bon Vivant & Roustabout Part-time Carnival Barker Certified Ex-Wife Collector Experienced Drinking Companion "I was screwed. I readied my confession and the sobbing pleas not to tell my wife. But as I turned, no one was in the bed. The room was empty. The naked girl was gone, like magic." "Memoirs of a Buccaneer: 30 Years Before the Mast" - Amazon.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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