Main Gauche

[HarborMaster]

Does anyone here carry a Main Gauche or use one with thier kit?., I am trying to locate a good one with a knuckle bow....., however the knuckle bow (hand-Guard) Swords and Main Gauches seem to be harder to find.

HarborMaster

[blackjohn]

While he doesn't regularly carry it, my friend Scurvy Hanna does have one that he fights with. I think it's from old Museum Replicas.

Blackjohn

[Hawkyns]

I occasionally carry one from Museum Reps. It's the old Reivers dagger, decent blade with a small basket hilt. I'm making a new scabbard 'cause I don't like the one it came with. Also thinking of taking it to the wire wheel and removing the chrome from the bars. Just too shiny.

Hawkyns

[HarborMaster]

Thank you men.., Yes this is basically what I am talking about . I like this particular knuckle bow., for the main gauche., as well as a short short. However I am curious of its durability., I know the double cutaway is for disrupting an opponents sword however it looks weak., I am sure this is not full tang.,or battle ready...,has anyone seen this particular gauche up close ., there are no specs on thickness. And this style knuckle bow is hard to find., I am not sure what the particular guard on this type is actually called. Its not a basket guard. Anyone know?

HarborMaster

[Hawkyns]

I'll check Norman tonight and see how he categorises them. Also the Wallace Collection catalogue has several and I'll check how they list them. If memory serves, and I believe it does, this was a design with Spanish origins in the early 17th C

Hawkyns

[Hawkyns]

OK, the Wallace catalogue has about 8 pages of them. It simply calls them 'triangular knuckle guards'. All dated 1620-1650 and the majority are Spanish, with a couple of Italian thrown in. No other countries mentioned.

Norman (The Rapier and Small Sword, 1460-1820) does not mention this particular type of gauche. Interesting note though. Of the Spanish rapiers that match the time period of that particular dagger, the majority are elaborate cup hilts, similar to a modern epee guard in shape. that is where the similarity ends, however, since they are not solid, but are intricate traceries of metal, chiseled, and with a number of variations for the finger bar.

Hope this helps.

Hawkyns

[HarborMaster]

It does help., I appreciate this very much...,after seeing I cannot readily obtain one however.., I am going to do an unorthodox experiment. I searched for a suitable blade I could "Pirate" from another sword that I could easily purchase..., It needed to have a LONG shoulder however., and that is a problem. Most swords have a 1 to 3 shoulder then the blade starts its cutting edge. I chose a "Conan Sword" off of Ebay because its 23" of blade and 6" of shoulder then *Probably* a welded Rat Tail thru a 7" wooden handle finally to a screw on decrative pommel cap. I just purchased it on Ebay about an hour ago.

I hate getting obsessed.., its a problem for me.

I am going to "pirate* this new blade by "Cannablizing" this new conan. Saving the pommel for future use. Tossing the wooden handle and hilt...,machining down the 1 1/2 inch wide shoulder to 1 inch so I can maintain a "full-Tang" sword thru handle. Use a piece of 5/8 Brass round stock and machine a slot thru its center to manufacture a straight hilt. Then use stainless sheet (maybe aluminum depending on weight) to form my "Triangular-Knuckle-Guard" (Thanks Hawkyns) . Probably wrap the solid tang in leather. Using the original threaded pommel decoration to hold the shield to the back of the sword...,after rat tailing only 1/2" at the handles end?

Wow.., I am exhausted just thinking about it..., The sword I am cannablizing is thick wide and double edged......, but it gave me my Long shoulder to work with. THis should be an unusual piece not exactly a speedy musketeer unit..., more of a short and funny looking broadsword.

I will however post pics when its complete...., I would think within 1 month.

Crossing fingers?

HarborMaster

[HarborMaster]

So far ., things are working out pretty good (even better than expected for a full tang short sword. The machining is pretty simple and a grinder goes a long way. I found some solid Brass machined lamp parts that will work well for the ends of the hilt. I used a piece of cardboard to make my pattern then cut the guard from Stainless steel with the help of a die grinder.

Here are a few photos if any of you are interested in a Spanish type of hand guard.

HarborMaster

[Hawkyns]

Hey- that looks real good. Nice idea to make the full tang, instead of the rat-tail, that will add a fair bit of stability.

A suggestion, if I might. Looking at the quillons, they look to be 4-5 inches long on each side. I might recommend that you shorten them a bit, or put some curve into them. Here's why. If you carry the weapon in the small of your back, everytime you move, one of those quillons will poke you in the back. I speak from experience.

On the historical side, very few of them were straight quillons, because they are just not useful in that configuration. The two standard curves are 1) both slightly downturned to catch blades, or 2) one turned up across the knuckles for extra protection, and the other turned down to catch blades. In 2, the knuckle bow is longer than the downturned.

Don't know if this is feasible for yours, frequently lamp parts are cast brass and not malleable at all. Don't want to break them while trying to bend them.

Just an idea.

Hawkyns

[HarborMaster]

Any and all ideas are a definite help. The brass lamp parts are sectional and screw together., the photo is 2 and an end (3 pieces) I have since now reduced it to 2 pieces (one and the end). Your way definitely looks better as well as the comfort too I bet.., Doesnt look so much like an olive pick for a cocktail this way now. I am not sure what to do with the handle. I was thinking about using a piece of wood (thin.,swolen in the middle and thinned on the length edge) for filler. then wrapping over that with leather? Maybe a tassle or two for renn faire purposes.

Yes !! the full tang makes me feel better swinging it about a little. The Quillons I dont think I can bend without breaking. Also I believe I can use a small wrench as a measured scoring tool..,to scribe in a border for the perimeter of the guard., that could be painted? any ideas?

HarborMaster

[Capt. Flint]

A fine looking piece of work Harbormaster.. Let me know how well it performs. The quillions worry me a little based on how they look... But, like I say, that is based on thier look. Let me know how well they hold up also. Otherwise, you did a really fine looking job there mate.

[Stynky Tudor]

Very cool HarborMaster, great pictures! And thanks for the sword anatomy lesson.

[HarborMaster]

Thank you men .., Today after work I was able to use a cut-off wheel for a dremel and make a deep cut on each of 2 sides of a 1/2 square stock piece 3 1/2 long. Then I used a drill bit and finally a file to mill out the hilt. After that I drilled and threaded the ends for the brass quillons. Then a test fit it.

Tomorrow I plan on a little paint and some attention to the handle to finish this off at which time I will post a couple of finished pics

Pretty much I was after a short sword to accompany my short stature and of course I really wanted the spanish Triangle Knuckle Guard to add to my Spanish heritage.

I have really enjoyed this project.,it was pretty simple and fun.

HarborMaster

[privateer]

well done. well done

ye be have'n a fine blade there. 'n even better it has yer own blood 'n sweat in it.

[John Maddox Roberts]

HarborMaster:

That triangular guard is called by collectors a "sail" guard, from its shape. I have one almost identical to the one in the picture. I got it from MRL (actually, it was given to me by Hank Reinhardt, the founder of MRL) about 18 years ago, along with a cup hilt and a swept hilt rapier, but the sail guards are contemporary with the cup hilts, not the swept hilts.

[Capt. Flint]

Jut a thought Harbormaster... If you want a better grip, you might want to wrap the actual hilt with leather. It will prevent slipping and allow you a very very secure grip. You will have to check the thickness before you finish the wrap. Otherwise, you will have a hilt so thick, that you won't be able to get your hand in it.

[HarborMaster]

So far I have most of it completed tonight. except the hand wrap. I broke that pulling too tight The inside of the triangle guard got red felt and the full tang recieved a few layers of leather., then I checked sizing., and added a bit more. Then during the wrapping I finished but while pulling the slip knot thru under the wrap., .........., I had the end in my hand ...,snap.

Anyway I am ready to start wrapping again. I will post another pik soon after its finished.

I did take it outside for a swing or two., its much better then my Denix pirate cutlass., perhaps because its solid., not a rat tail and because the guard is alot lighter. I dont know but it does feel good., Fast sure sturdy light and short.

I ended up with 21" of blade from the guard front to the tip., + the guard and handle.

At 5'8" a 37" rapier is a bit much for me and makes me look like a little kid with daddys sword.

HarborMaster

[Capt. Flint]

If you are using leather for the wrap, heres an idea. With my own swords, I had the end of the wrap tucked behind the very last turn on the hilt and added a bit if hot glue under it to help hold it in place. I have fought heavy combat with these for several years now and have yet to have one come loose.......... Just a thought...

By the way, yours turned out looking so nice, would you be interested in doing another. For a fee of course.... keep me posted...

[HarborMaster]

That sounds like a pretty good idea. I was unsure how I would wrap it. My father came over annd made a loop like a hangmans loop then holding it firmly proceeded to wrap over the loop.., (the loop being several inches longer than the area to be wrapped) . After wrapping the entire handle., to the end he then put the wrap end into his loop., one the other end where the end of the loop was past the handle...., he pulled on it! That cause the knot to be dragged under the wrap to the middle of the handle. He's a crafty one.,and so I call on his cunning to help me when in doubt.

Yea I could make you one I am not sure how much to charge tho to be fair to each.,.,something reasonable. This is about all I am going to do to the sword., I am thinking about a stencil and testors paint to put an old spanish cross on the guard., but thats about it.

The idea here is to obtain Full Tang at bargain prices., a good sword is pricey and most often *still a rat tang* as in Not Combat Ready or SCA approved . Serve as a costume piece while still being able to kick around a bit and still look good with out breaking. I am happy. Cheers to all. HarborMaster

[Nomadicalpirate]

Nothing constructive to say, but that's a fine looking blade you've made/converted there. congrats mate