Article: Sex in the Age of Sail

[TalesOfTheSevenSeas]

SEX IN THE AGE OF SAIL

*Gasp!!* Be it true?!!

Historians, tell me yer opinions on this arrrrticle, which makes claims about the unofficial "positions" of cabin boys and more...

[Saber]

Arrrrrrrr me Darlin!!!

I"m all for skipping the cabin boy and taking care of business with me one and only.

[TalesOfTheSevenSeas]

Lucky fer ye, that ye live in th' modern day and be sailin' with a Cap'n who let's (and encourages) "pyrettes" aboard!!

['Salem Bob']

SEX IN THE AGE OF SAIL

*Gasp!!* Be it true?!!

Historians, tell me yer opinions on this arrrrticle, which makes claims about the unofficial "positions" of cabin boys and more...

That is a pretty fluffy article, long on speculation and short on documentation to the point of being nearly entirely absent. I particularly like the arrant nonsense "homosexuality must have been prevelant die to the numbers of rules against it". Sounds good on the surface, but taking a deeper look I believe fewer than a dozen cases of Sodomy are publicly recorded by Admiralty records over the course of the 18th century, with a stunningly high percentage of hangings meted out to the convicted parties (I am unaware of a case where a charge was brought forward without conviction). You stood a greater chance of being hanged for said act than for desertion. The raw data is there to prove the case.

For a much better look into sexuality and the sailor, try David Cordingly's "Women Sailors and Sailors Women" (I hope I have that title right - I know I have the author correct). He covers everything from female sailors, to dockside prostitutes, sailors wives, homosexuality, ect.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view), the article you linked to is fluff and drivel, a reporters view after a brief skim of a range of material, rather than a well documented study.

I think you would get a kick out of the Cordingly book, and he very solidly documents cases of women at sea, functioning as everything from captain of the foretop on an English man of war, to taking over as fully functioning captains when their husbands were rendered incapable.

[Iron Bess]

SEX IN THE AGE OF SAIL

*Gasp!!* Be it true?!!

What??

Who had sex with an aged sail???................

[Wartooth]

What??

Who had sex with an aged sail???................

Sorry ....... I'll clean it up.

Anyway, I wholeheartedly agree with Bob. It was a VERY fluffy article ... not well researched or written. One cannot report on straight hypothesis and conjecture.

Wartooth

[TalesOfTheSevenSeas]

Yeah I noted that he only mentioned floggings etc as punishment for sodomy, but had completely missed one of the juciest bits of documentation, which is reprinted in the Cordingly book you mentioned, "Women Sailors and Sailor's Women"

Cordingly includes a trial transcript in which a detailed account is given of two sailors who are accused of sodomy. The language is so graphic, I couldn't even quote it here (I didn't even know they had those slang words in the 18th century!) and both of them were hung from the ship's yardarm.

There is a book Sodomy and the Pirate Tradition: English Sea Rovers in the Seventeenth-Century Caribbean which I can't say that I've read, but that is supposed to be a good source on this subject. I too got the distinct impression that this article was written by someone looking for a sensational article, rather than someone who had spent much time researching nautical subjects. But I thought it would be interesting to see what comments our pirates had on it.

(LOL, still chuckling over the visual image inspired by Bess' comment!!)

[Zorg]

I was drunk

The Sail didn't LOOK that old

I was really, really drunk

[Stitch]

...Good one Zorg...I'm still laugh'n

[Red Maria]

I agree with Salem Bob & Wartooth. Be leery of articles that don't site sources and primary sources at that. Sodomy & the Pirate Tradition is full of supposition. Some years back there was a scholar here who was researching homosexuality and pirates. He gave a brown bag talk on it. All the while he was talking had to supress a giggle couse all I could think about was Capt Ned and the Raging Queen from SNL. John Beluchi in a hot pink and lime green satin pirate outfit! His sepculation was that the vast majority of pirates were gay. Personally think it was a mixture of wishful thinking and his fantasy life. He later published his research as Rum, sodomy, and the lash : piracy, sexuality, and masculine identity [aka How I Spent My Weekend] / Hans Turley.

There were gay pirates and some did form lasting unions. I have never heard of the term matelots before. Great consort yes in Captian Kidd and the War Against the Pirates. It was used to refer to the partner of Capt. Culliford who was the man who was the bane of Kidd's existance. Took off with half his crew. :) There is evidence that pirates were more tolerent of homosexual behavior but then pirates were tolreent about any non-mainstream behavior or lifestyle.

They were afterall pirates! :)

Edited March 25, 2004 by Red Maria

[TalesOfTheSevenSeas]

I am NOT going to make any jokes about using a "sailor's palm" next time... I swear I won't!!!!!!!!

[TalesOfTheSevenSeas]

Red Maria,

I will have to dig through my books and find out where I read about matelots. I think it was in Cordingly's book but I can't say for sure. As I recall there was no indication that this was a homosexual relationship, but more along the line of the type of deep trust and reliance upon each other than develops between men on the battlefield. It was a tough life and you were better off if you had someone you knew you could trust with your life and who would look out for you.

[Zorg]

I am NOT going to make any jokes about using a "sailor's palm" next time... I swear I won't!!!!!!!!

Oh, don't be silly....

'COURSE you will

[Iron Bess]

I was drunk

The Sail didn't LOOK that old

I was really, really drunk

Ahhhhhhhhhhh.... good lad!

[Hawkyns]

Matelot is a British navy term for sailors. Generally refers to non-officers .

Hawkyns

[Red Maria]

Matelot is a British navy term for sailors. Generally refers to non-officers .

Hawkyns

Maybe that's why I never heard used for same sex partners either sailor or pirate. That was one poorly written article.

[TalesOfTheSevenSeas]

Apparently it is "Sodomy and the Pirate Tradition: English Sea Rivers in the Seventeenth Century Caribbean" p. 120-130 that describes the term "matelots" as bond between sailors that was sexual.

When I get home tonight, I'll check in my Wodsworth Dictionary of Pirates. I think that is where I saw matloteage described as a special bonding or friendship between two sailors that did not imply a physical relationship.

Skimming around on the web, it seems to have no further meaning beyond a term for a sailor. I'll see what I can dig up tonight. I wonder if it is one of those words that began as just another word for sailor and had an additional meaning evolve later? Just making guesses on that.

Additionally, I did find also that it's a French word and is pronounced "mat-low". I tell ya... somtimes those nautical terms are enough to drive you batty! Boatswain is pronounced "Bosun" and forecastle is pronounced "foc'sl"

[Deacon Frye]

My handy online Merriam-Webster reveals:

Main Entry: mate·lot

Pronunciation: 'mat-"lO, 'ma-t&-

Function: noun

Etymology: French, from Middle French, from Middle Dutch mattenoot, literally, bedmate

British : SAILOR

However, American Heritage Dictionary ... has a different take:

SYLLABICATION: mat·e·lote

PRONUNCIATION:  mtl-t, mä-t-lt

NOUN: A fish stew that is cooked in a wine sauce. 

ETYMOLOGY: French, from matelot, sailor, from Old French matenot, sailor, bunkmate, possibly from Middle Dutch mattenoot ( perhaps from matte, bed, from Late Latin matta; see mat1 + noot, fellow) or from Old Norse mötunautr, messmate ( mata, food, mess + nautr, companion).

(A couple of the pronunciation symbols didn't make it through on that last post, BTW.)

[Red Maria]

I went to the OED and found two spelling slightly different meanings.

Matelot [Fr sailor cf matlo (w)]

1. A salilor Naut salng

2. Applied to a shade of blue

Matelote

1. A dish of fish with a sause of wine, onions and other seasonings ...

2. Old sailor's dance in duple rythm, similar to a hornpipe

No mention of intimate relations between men in the OED.

[Red Maria]

Apparently it is "Sodomy and the Pirate Tradition: English Sea Rivers in the Seventeenth Century Caribbean" p. 120-130 that describes the term "matelots" as bond between sailors that was sexual.

There isn't a copy of Burg book "Sodomy & the Pirate Tradition" in the library. That should be very telling as to the level of scholarship the book has.

Claire does Burg say where he got this bit of information? Is there a footnote or endnote? If yes what is the source sited?

[Lucky Penny Hawkings]

I was drunk

The Sail didn't LOOK that old

I was really, really drunk

...I was DEAD at th' time!

.....I was on th' MOON! With Steve!

(an' if ye get that, more power to ye!)

[Desert Pyrate]

...I was DEAD at th' time!

.....I was on th' MOON! With Steve!

And if'n ye broke the rules on the ship, ye'd be asked...

Tea and cake or death?!?

[Lucky Penny Hawkings]

...I was DEAD at th' time!

.....I was on th' MOON! With Steve!

And if'n ye broke the rules on the ship, ye'd be asked...

Tea and cake or death?!?

"Death! Er.. CAKE!"

"You said death first! Aaaah!"

"Well, I meant cake!"

[Coastie04]

Let THEM eat cake...

[PYRATE]

Let THEM eat cake...

O.K. then, death by eatin' cake!.........