Faire vs Re-enactment

[darkRose]

Hurricane!!!

Which one of the original Tiki Bars is that ? Seems i remember a bunch of them down in KW....

Rogue's Pierre

[hurricane]

Thank ye kindly Conner, for the finery of your private stock. I t'would agree with your point and drink to it gladly.

[hurricane]

Ahoy Rogue's Pierre,

The tiki bar be in me own back yard - complete with a dock and soon to be sinking ship (as soons as the thaw comes).

Will email you a photo of our fine tiki bar, adjacent to the small sea we have (our hot tub).

[Longarm]

There's way too much testosterone flowing here.  I've got no issues with people trading ideas or offering up oppinions.  In fact my own views have changed a bit cause of this thread.  What gets old is the head buttin of those with different opinions who think theirs is best.  Remember opinions are like farts.  Everyone's but yours stinks.

Let's all belly up to the bar an have a pint or two of rum. 

Actually I've always thought opinions were like assholes. Everyone has one, it's usually full of shit, and no one wants to hear about it. But that's just my opinion. Now what was there about rum?

[GlueBeard]

Salem Bob,

First, I haven't went on about anything at great length, yet. I certainly wouldn't characterize my prior posting as being "at great length."

Your choice of words is most curious. "General fashion" is, in and of itself, inherently vague and open to question. During the 40 years of my lifetime, I have witnessed enormous variety in general fashion. Fashion varies dramatically from individual to individual. Many factors impact and influence one's choice of fashion. This has always been the case with mankind, where fashion is concerned. Even today, and especially where hand-sewn garments are concerned, variety is the rule, rather than the exception.

With regards to "trying to be authentic," there is a notable distinction between "trying to be authentic" and "being authentic." Certainly, they are not one and the same. One can try, to their heart's desire, to be authentic, but I fail to see how a hyper-selective pick-and-choose approach to authenticity yields an actual authentic product. Selective authenticity, where one takes what one wants and leaves what they do not want to trouble themself with, leaves a lot to be desired, if the objective is to achieve authenticity.

Problematic in discerning from paintings and cartoons the totality of fashion for a given time frame is that, whether in yesteryear or even today, artists often utilize their respective mediums to showcase their own creativity, rather than be slaves to historical accuracy.

I do not summarily dismiss historical examples of fashion that do exist. However, most garments wore by most people were never studied, much less preserved nor documented. Garments are crafted for a great many different reasons. The result is a plethorea of clothing that is simply worn and used, and not in the least way preserved for posterity's study and emulation. Some of the more unique hand-sewn garments that I have seen made during my lifetime have little, if anything, in common with what you might term "today's fashion."

In any given time frame, there have been a multitude of fashions. Period. This is simply a fact of everyday life and everyday reality. In consideration of the sheer number of peoples, nations, and cultures, not to mention the intermingling thereof, this is far from surprising. If anything is disingenuous, it is to imply that our knowledge of prior ages garment and fashion choices and options is anywhere near complete and authoritative. It isn't.

I haven't looked down my nose at anyone. However, there is nothing which dictates nor demands that I accept ignorance as the truth, no matter what garment one chooses to dress it in. It is well worth noting and highlighting that pirates were not exactly the most static and isolated of individuals. They often ranged far and wide in their activities. They encountered and interacted with, albeit admittedly often on very violent terms, thousands upon tens of thousands of individuals from multiple nations and from a host of cultures.

The supposed "visual representations" that you provide, in the hypothetical form, all lack the element of being convincing. It is not simply what is visually displayed, but how it is displayed, and the perceived authenticity that accompanies the same. Just as the clothing do not make the man, neither does the clothing nor gear necessarily produce a convincing replica of a pirate. Especially since many would lack a foundational base of historical knowledge to begin with, even the holy grail of authenticity can come across as unconvincing, or even as an imposter, depending upon many things, not just upon the garments or auxilliary items, themselves. Donning a crown, even a real crown, does not necessarily convince the world that one is a king. Do you really think, therefore, that one makes a convincing pirate, simply because they are adorned in "authentic" gear? I certainly don't.

Your concession that the visual examples you provided are not perfect is so noted. Why, then, should what even you, yourself, admit to be imperfect examples be necessarily persuasive, then, much less conclusive to complete strangers who attend a given show, demonstration, or performance and encounter them?

Objects, alone, make poor educators, and often times, they make poor educational tools. If they do, then we can get rid of all teachers, and just put books in our schools. Anyone who has ever sat through a boring class in high school can certainly attest to the fact that how history is presented, far and away more than historical data itself, is what is both persuasive and educational.

Your attempt to label my prior posting as possessing of hostility is error made manifest. We live in what has been termed an "oft disputatious society." We are a rather opinionated lot. But, to suggest hostility on my part, evidenced through my opinions authored in this forum, lacks truth in totality. A very notable Supreme Court Justice once said that a free man must be a reasoning man, and he must dare to doubt what a legislative or electoral majority may most passionately assert. Likewise, that very same free man must be prepared to take issue with what people, both as individuals and at large, put forth for mental consumption.

There is nothing, whatsoever, in any of my posts that denote a lack of tolerance on my part for others being possessing of their opinions. That I post my opinions in no way, shape, nor form deprives nor denies similar expression to others.

I am not obligated, however, by ignorance-based-fiat, to accept as truth that which I full well know is not true. Hyper-selective-authenticity is not the same thing as authenticity. Period. If authenticity is to be the touchstone whereby the matter is to be resolved and decided, then so be it, but let it not be some watered-down, dilluted version of authenticity.

A battle between replicas of pirate ships is a battle between replicas, not a battle between pirate ships. Yet, the replica can, and often does, persuade assembled masses that they are as close to the real and genuine article as one can get in today's day and age.

But, we full well know that such really isn't the case. I hardly find "close but no cigar" to be particularly convincing argument, where authenticity is concerned.

You're either fully authentic, or you are engaged in pretense, at best. I don't seek to deny you your pursuit of pretense, but likewise, I have no vested interest in buying-in to half-truths, partial-accuracies, or over-weighted depictions of authenticity.

The most convincing examples of pirates of the 17th century, for example, that I am aware of in today's day and age are real and genuine pirates. Many of them wear blue jeans and sport M-16's or other modern-day weaponry. You could adorn yourself like a peacock in any attire of your choice from any period of your choice, and end up looking like anything but a pirate.

If Daffy Duck dons cowboy boots and jumps atop a horse, he doesn't necessarily convince people that he is a cowboy at all, much less a particular cowboy or a cowboy from a particular era.

To me, whether faire or re-enactment, I am faced with one set of imposters or another set of imposters. After all, whether entertainer galore or authentinazi incarnate, it's still just role playing, in my book. How can it properly be labeled otherwise?

So, the melodrama, smoke, and mirrors of your verbal arguments aside, I find myself exactly where I was before I entered this discussion. Fully of the mindset that the primary nexus of piratical brotherhood lies in an firm, deep, and abiding appreciation for freedom, and not an over-reliance nor rigid-adherence to rules fabricated by supposed authorities on piracy and pirates.

I seriously doubt that the sum totality of all of what the piratical authentinazis of today know about piracy would impress Blackbeard in the very least.

Every single adherent to the entertainer school of thought, whether they realize it or not, are de facto beneficiaries of Blackbeard. How? Because Blackbeard, and other pirates like him, understood that the single most important ingredient to being convincing as a pirate was not what they wore nor which sidearms they armed themselves with, but with engaging the imagination of their audience and victims.

Blackbeard knew that what really mattered was that they believed that he was a pirate. And that is only something that can be achieved within the audience.

Even at the risk of galling some, particularly those who have cast their lot upon the Sea of Authenticity, I would dare say that entertainers share a quint-essential dynamic of authenticity with pirates that really can't be disputed. Pirates were entertainers of the first magnitude. They entertained their victims, their fellow piratical brethren, and themselves.

Blackbeard is infamous, not just because he was a pirate, but because he was a pirate that held great affinity and regard for drama. To him, drama, something which modern-day piratical entertainers share, was no less important and no less vital a tool of piracy than a cutlass or a ship were.

Wearing certain clothes or sporting a certain sidearm did not make Blackbeard a pirate, and they certainly didn't make him infamous among the ranks of his historical piratical brethren. Drama, however, did.

Unlike replicas of clothing or sidearms or ships, though, drama can be as genuine and real for pirate entertainers today as with their piratical ancestor, Blackbeard.

All hail Blackbeard!

[Red Maria]

I've mentioned these guys before but I thought maybe you'd like to see an article with them discussing their work. The are the guys from the Hampton Court kitchen who come over once a year to do research at the Huntington. The are true stiklers for authenicity but don't let themselves be dominated by it. A lesson we can all learn from. :)

http://www.latimes.com/features/food/la-fo...1,3178077.story

Some of you may have to sign up with LA Times online but it's free and doesn't take much time. They are fun lecturers too! :)

Enjoy!

[Hawkyns]

Gluebeard, I both agree and disagree with your post, sometimes at the same point.

Putting on period kit alone, does not make you authentic. Walking around your local supermarket in full authentic kit does not make you a pirate. On the other hand, wearing a hodge podge of clothing from different periods, and claiming disdain for conventions of dress doesn't make you a pirate either.

To be convincing, either as an entertainer or a re-enactor, 2 things are needed. Attitude and context.

Context first. The entertainer is more likely to be found at faire or festival, the re-enactor at a historic site or muster. Both put the audience in the frame of mind to suspend their disbelief, although in two different directions. The entertainer relies on the jollity of the faire patrons and their reactions to combine with his kit to provide the pirate image. The re-enactor relies on his kit and the props, be it a simple tent or a full size sloop, to provide the context of his portrayal. Since the entertainer has, for the most part, a group looking to be entertained, they are in a better mood and more likely to be forgiving of dress inaccuracies. The re-enactor is frequently dealing with historians, some of whom may be more familiar with the subject than he is himself. At that point, the accuracy of the portrayal is everything, and those historians will be quick to criticize and find every little detail that is out of place. The entertainer's job is to send the people on their way with a smile. His kit is only one of his tools in that job. The re-enactor's job is to educate. If his kit is wrong, one of his tools is not sharp. He will fail, either by not being convincing at all, or by being convincing in a false manner and educating people to the lie.

Attitude is the other major factor. The entertainer is dependant on the goodwill of his audience. He has to be 'liked' by his audience. Whether that is in the form of true partisanship, such as Johnny Depp, or a villain you truly love to hate, the fact remains that the character must please the audience. The re-enactor has no such constraints. He can work his character however he pleases, without regard for whether the audience likes him. Indeed, if he is doing a creditable impression of a pirate, he should be disliked by most people with modern sensibilities. Because his attitude can be inately hostile to the crowd, they will be more critical of him and far more likely to see inconsistancies.

This is a case that clothes do not make the man. Putting on slops, a tricorn and a cutlass is not enough. You have to tailor your impression to your audience, put on the attitude, wear clothing appropriate to your station, judge your audience, and act in a manner in accordance with your goal. Both types must be actors and find their inner pirate. Whether that will be a jolly pirate singer, or a filthy murdering gunner, is up to you.

Hawkyns

[HarborMaster]

Here here..., well put Hawkyns. That sounds correct to me .

HarborMaster

[endkaos]

Hawkyns,

Your assessment rang true with my experiences of late. I volunteered at the Estrella War XX. It was a very enlightening experience. I think all persons considering faire vs re-enactment should visit both camps. The folks at the Estrella War were generous and outgoing to this novice with information and advice. I think I also got the best of both worlds as both the AZ ren faire and Estrella wars occured during the same month. Thank you for steering me toward the Estrella War experience.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

ping.... read later

[hurricane]

Well said, Hawkyns. I think you covered that ground with aplomb... Right on target you are...

-- Hurricane

[jessie k.]

Now for my humble two cents worth:

I'm fairly new at the reenacting game, myself. I suppose the argument over authenticity or entertainment depends on why you are doing it--to teach others, or to have fun? If your goal is to teach others, and help them appreciate the reality of piracy, then one should be in the right garb, and speaking the right words to give people as realistic a perception of piracy as is practical. Obviously, they are going to know that you are not a real pirate, but they may come away with a better understanding of what being a real pirate was. Not just from the clothing, speech, etc, but from the information you have imparted to them. Really, the clothing, and weaponry is just a way to draw and keep their attention, so that they will be interested in the information you give them.

However, if you are just in it to have fun, then authenticity isn't as important as giving off the impression of piracy.

Myself, I am in it for fun and information! So I dress as accurately as my budget allows, have my fun, and impart as much information as I posess to those who want to know why I am dressed funny!

[PyratePhil]

Whoa - impressive first post - welcome to the board, Jessie!

I think MY first post was something like, "Duh..huh...heh, heh...HI!"....

And I agree with that attitude...look, I work 65-70 hours a week being "professional"...my work requires that I be alert, moving, questioning, diagnosing and curing - I want to FORGET all of that when I go a'pyratin'...

That being said - I'd say for me, it's firstly a Relief Valve, followed closely, if not hand-in-hand, by Fun. Third comes Costume (Kit/Gear ); finally, dead last for me, Educatin'. Been doin' THAT for far too long as it is...

Besides, my knowledge of Pyrate history borders on nil and nada...so I'm hardly one to be askin' historical questions...I'm the Buffoon of Batavia, The Idiot of Islemorada, the Jerk of Jersey, and the Clown of Constantinople...but one thing I ain't is teaching in my "off hours"...

[Francois]

Ahoy Hawkyns,

As for me I think you know were I stand on these questions. For all the rest of you. I strive to be as authentic as I possibly can. Whether it be a rev war pirate or an earlier period pirate. I also try to educate myself so that I could pass on the history of what I portry. I am always adding to my collection of piratical props too. I try to get items that are authentic or close to authentic.

Boy Mate it seems you ruffled some feathers (parott) feathers. Which brings up the question if you have a parott would the bird have a choice of being authentic too?

I read through all 13 pages and now I got a bloody headache from all the reading and some of the big words that were used. Would someone please pass the rum.

Bottom line I have a lot of fun with a bunch of great people who have become very good friends.

Francois

[dasNdanger]

I read through all 13 pages and now I got a bloody headache from all the reading and some of the big words that were used.   Would someone please pass the rum.

Ye be a better pirate than me! I read parts of the first two, and jumped right to the last...

To answer the original question...I blend both, but lean more toward authenticity. Shoes are always my problem because period, custom-made ones are just too expensive for me, and then there is the issue of being on one's feet all day...If I could, I'd just go barefoot. But since I can't, my shoes are usually the least accurate part of my costume because I prefer wearing sandals (all leather, nothing faddish or dated - but still not in keeping with authentic footwear). But other than that, I try to wear something that at least can pass for the period (though it might be cotton...but no polyester or other man-made materials). I don't carry a firing pistol, but again, I'm dealing with a budget. It's a lot cheaper to buy a good replica, and all the little 'accessories', and if I am in a position later on to get the real thing, I'll be ready. And most of my accessories are in keeping with the 18th century in general. I don't really have anything that screams a certain date...it's all pretty generic.

Why - if I would prefer to be authentic, do I mix the two? Several factors are involved:

1. Money - it's a lot cheaper buying off the rack than having things custom made or ordered through catalogues. And I do not sew (I can, but have no machine, which costs money, and hand-sewing takes forever...and that's not compatible with my short attention span). And that leads me to...

2. Time. I just don't have the time right now to devote to the research and development of a 100% accurate kit. Perhaps in 5 years - when the pirate craze is dead, I'll FINALLY get it all together as i would like it to be...but for now, I have to be satisfied with what I have.

3. Time to actually WEAR the costume. I only have time for a few weekends sometime between mid August and the end of October to attend the PA Ren Faire. I don't go to other faires or festivals, and don't have the time to join a re-enactment group. I am spread very thin, between full-time work, domestic responsibilities, volunteering (including on the Meerwald), and other social committments. Having such a full schedule, it's just EASIER to throw on any ol' thing and go to the faire to 'unwind' and have fun...and sit by the kiddie fencing arena to watch sexy Leather Man with tattoos all over his bod-eeeeee.....*drool* ..oo..did I just say that out loud??

And then there is the reason for doing it. If I was a reenactor trying to educate the public - if I chose that - well, with my perfectionist gene and all - I would want to be dead-on accurate...and wouldn't rest until I was. However, I am - at the moment - not trying to educate anyone but myself...and here is where I rely on my imagination to fill in the blanks that my wallet and time won't allow me to fill otherwise.

From reading all the replies I often wonder if pirates got into similar debates over attire? Perhaps there was a mutiny or two over the fact that someone was wearing outdated trousers or too big a feather in his cap!

das

[jessie k.]

Phil:

Muchisimas gracias! I try to make good first impressions.

I would certainly like to educate people about piracy, and other historical topics that I'm interested in, however, I have to keep busy trying to educate myself. Funny how getting a history degree so I can learn about historical topics that interest me, means I first have to learn about historical topics that don't necessarily interest me. Anyway, like most of you, it seems, time and budget are my biggest problems!

[Cap'n Pete Straw]

... Perhaps in 5 years - when the pirate craze is dead...

BLASPHEMER! An un-believer! Persecute! Kill the heretic!

[dasNdanger]

... Perhaps in 5 years - when the pirate craze is dead...

BLASPHEMER! An un-believer! Persecute! Kill the heretic!

*dangles from her toes over pit of embedded swords, daggers, and pikes*

PLEEEEEEEAAAAASSSEEEEE forgive me! *grovel, grovel* I was just saying that in the context that I always chose the long line at the supermarket checkout, the wrong lane in heavy traffic, and buy a new electronic gadget the day before it becomes obsolete - so I just figgered I'd finally get my kit (and act) together JUST when no one wants to play pirates anymore!!

das

[Captain_MacNamara]

As I said in another post a'fore... I am generally instantly recognizable as "Pirate"... though I tend to blend a bit of accuracy with faire, SCA, and fantasy. My personna seems to work so far, and it's based a bit on my family's history ta boot

My "kit" as it were... My garb is acceptable by SCA standards, but I'm ever striving for better garb... it doesn't fit the "golden age" of piracy, but then again, in the SCA one must stick to the earlier periods. Shoes are the ever-present problem. In the SCA, rich people have period shoes, and poor people just wear what they already own, usually tennis shoes. I wear all-leather military combat boots. Close enough to a period-ish look and within me budget.

(though it was rather humourous... one of the people that came to me nitpicking my black flag as not period was wearing none other than a pair of nikes... the audacity!)

But I try to blend a bit of all of it together... give off the pirate flair while trying to remain plausibly period. But when it's all said and done, if it looks good, and I like the style, I use it and period be damned! I'm in this to have fun and make sure others around me have fun as well.

[Tudor MercWench Smith]

it's just EASIER to throw on any ol' thing and go to the faire to 'unwind' and have fun...and sit by the kiddie fencing arena to watch sexy Leather Man with tattoos all over his bod-eeeeee.....*drool* ..oo..did I just say that out loud??

Amen to that! Ohhhhhh - pretty . . .

Finally getting around to posting on this thread . . . been thinking about it for a while. I would love to be accurate in my garb. I try my hardest, but as other have said before, it can get expensive and does usually get time consuming.

Right now, I'm going with a "if it looks good, go with it" theory. I want to look accurate. I cringe every time I go to the fair, and I see people wearing something they picked up at the halloween shop on their way there. There is no fun in that, at least for me. Call me crazy, but designing a costume, finding the fabric, or even premade clothes that will fit the bill, to come together to have a somewhat accurate look - it's fun! So I don't even see how the sides of the argument can go to "one's fun, one's accurate".

as for just the areans of faire vrs. re-encatment? do I really have to chose? can I do both?

[kass]

Okay, here's a perspective I haven't heard expressed here yet (but I'm like Das -- I skipped to the end!).

What if being accurate IS your idea of fun? I keep hearing about this word "balance". I don't think the two concepts have to be mutually exclusive. They aren't for me in any case.

You see, I'm really into textiles and the history thereof -- whether it be a piece of wool cloth that is the oldest surviving textile in Western Europe or a brand new design by Jean Paul Gautier. I want to know everything about it -- fibre content, thread count, stitches used, etc. Call me crazy, but I know there are people out there who are the same way about firearms or boats or other things. Clothing is really just another thing to be obsessed about.

When I dress for any reenactment, I am putting on the fruit of hours of work and months and sometimes years of painstaking research. But that is my idea of FUN! I don't care if no one knows that my interlining is made out of real horsehair or that the pattern repeat on my gown is exactly the same as on this extant gown in that museum. It doesn't matter to me if no one but me will ever know or ever care that the stitches that hold my lining together are exactly the same as the ones that held together the lining of a frockcoat from 1725. No one cares that they are exactly the same size as those on the original. No one will ever see them. And I don't really talk about them (except with similarly-obsessed friends). I know it's right and how much work I did to make it right.

Furthermore, I really don't care what anyone else does. I don't judge. And I don't hold people up to my standards. I'm not in this crazy dress-up hobby to make people conform to my idea of fun. I'm just here to dress up! So sit your poly-cotton clad butt down here next to me and I'll buy you a beer!

But woe-betide the person I see getting in anyone else's face about historic accuracy! I'm kind of a monster when it comes to defending the weak and helpless. Let he who has no sin throw the first stone, mates!

When I show up at an event, be it a reenactment at a historic site, an SCA event or a Ren Faire, you will find I have a lovely smile on my face. That smile is because I feel like I accomplished something great. And I am revelling in the satisfaction of a job well done. It's all inside, you see.

And frankly, since all that "work" is then out of the way, I can drink and carouse with you lot to my heart's content!

Kass

[LadyBarbossa]

Me... I'm a re-enactor. The Faire holds little excitement for me. I admit it... being near a cannon & being on the battlefield.. it's calming to me... I crave it. I crave the action, the escape from the present to live the past.

I know my outfit is not totally authentic... it's an aspect of childhood legend, lore & imagination that spurs it. As well as some other current outfits in the making.

Though, I do really want to create a historical aspect of it .. to portray the few piratesses of the past.

Or even to dress like the piratesses of the Pirates of the Spanish Main card game.

Walking around about a faire acting goofy is not my cup of tea or bottle of rum. I'd rather be there in the faces of folks.. pilfering, plundering, rading... being a real pirate! Not just walking about smiling & lookin' pretty with a cool costume.

To me.. it's not much the look of what we perceive is piracy... but what we do as pirates.

[PyratePhil]

I understand and respect re-enactor's needs and desires...

...but once you've actually been in situations where the firearms are real and the killing intent is pure, you don't willingly go back into that world...

...just a thought...carry on! lol

[PyratePhil]

Furthermore, I really don't care what anyone else does. I don't judge. And I don't hold people up to my standards. I'm not in this crazy dress-up hobby to make people conform to my idea of fun. I'm just here to dress up! So sit your poly-cotton clad butt down here next to me and I'll buy you a beer!

I REALLY like that paragraph, Kass! Thank you.

[Cap'n Pete Straw]

... Perhaps in 5 years - when the pirate craze is dead...

I was just saying that in the context that ... I just figgered I'd finally get my kit (and act) together JUST when no one wants to play pirates anymore!!

Actually, it has been my life-long hope that the 18th-century men's long frock coats (you know -- like the ones EVERYONE wears in POTC) will come back in style. There was hope in the 70s but, no, I remain disappointed. Crap.