Faire vs Re-enactment

[Zorg]

An I'll have ye all know that I NEVER log onta this site without bein in full and authentic costume, hand sewn by hereditary piratical mistresses on Tortuga an dyed in the brains of Spaniards...

honest..

or maybe not.

Okay, but at least I had wine with dinner.......

[HarborMaster]

I am fairly new at this., I realize I need to beat my new clothing into the ground., and get really scroungy looking to be authentic..., but i am not gonna. I also know my outkit is not authentic in fabrics or exact period costuming and i may not fit in.., I also know there are not many piranical events close by my area. There fore however my kit is I must know in my heart the time and money spent to custom things for me., was paid for by me ., ordered by me., picked out by me., FOR ME.., to PLEASE ME.

So whether or not anyone else likes it., I do., so for TALL ships I know I can wear it., as there is so many people in Seattle for such an event., people are generally having a good time anyway with out a technical care in the world really that I can be me there.

The rest of the time when i can wear my outfit., itll be for me.., and not re-enactments.,or faires as there arent many here., so really all in all it is for me., I am glad I have my kit and additional pieces so I can play pirate if I want too. It's a Democracy..., I love it. F R E E D O M

Best wishes to all

HarborMaster

[hurricane]

Why, Salem Bob, thanks for feeling the need to reign in our, now how did you put it, "fairly wild, emotional outbursts."

If one recalls the original question from Hawkyns was, "So here's the question, or actually questions. Do the patrons of this pub consider themselves Faire Folk or re-enactors? Do you change your clothing to match the period of the event or always wear the same thing? How important is the accuracy of your kit? Do you participate in battles or are the cutlasses and pistols just for show?"

This was not intended to be a thread dealing with historical accuracy vs. Hollywood. He was simply feeling a bit out of place at Pirates in Paradise and wanted to know who falls where in the spectrum of piracy here.

And now it has degraded to the point where you've decided to reign in our "fairly wild, emotional outbursts" about topics we feel just as passionate about.

In our experiences there has been a divide between those that seek historical accuracy and those that focus on entertainment value. It's been around as long as there's been festivals over the last 22 years I've been pirating. I've seen it in the U.S and abroad as a matter of fact. And some of us are just exploring that discord between the two divides.

True we have been butting heads in this particular post over positions and beliefs that can never be altered or swayed. That's the spirit of a democracy and free discussion.

But to dismiss one side as being merely emotional and wild in their positions sounds more like the folks back in the White House and their vilification of anyone who disagrees with their position. Suddenly they're un-American (I'd like to see how they'd describe the labors of our forefathers - throwing tea overboard - isn't that a terrorist act? - but I digress.)

I have learned from the balance of your postings and appreciate it - but don't ruin it all by comparing us to the behaviors of a ranting five year old. That doesn't do anything but rile a bunch of passionate pirates in these waters.

Now, let's move on and perhaps create some new topics that discuss historical accuracy in one area and entertainment in another. I'd like to see some spirited discussions on techniques, experiences and knowledge sharing on both sides of this fence. I don't think we all need to beating our heads trying to sway one side or the other who's right. Ain't gonna happen.

[Nigel]

One might say I would fall more towards the "faire" side of the equation, yes?

I intend no offense to those whose inclinations are otherwise. I respect the skills, effort and passion that go into all manner of costuming.

By the same token, I have no need to "make excuses" for not sharing someone else's interests, or not meeting their expectations. I feel no remorse for my zeal for being an entertainer. Nor should I.

Neither your way nor my way is “right”, they are just our individual preferences. We could each stand to learn from the other.

But hey, when it comes to butting heads, I can be the biggest butt-head out there! lol

( )( )

See that? That's my head!

Not everyone has the budget to buy costumes, 'tis true; not all people have the skills or resources to create their own either. 'Tis no shame in a lack of either. Fortunately, I have a little of both.

I have put quite a bit of time, skills, and resources into my own costume(s). I agree that creating your own costuming is a rewarding endeavor, and encourage others to look into it. This forum is a terrific place to get the information. I agree with Hurricane, I'd like to see some more discussions on techniques, materials, resources, etc.

Now, Salem Bob, I accept your offer of a drink. Rum, if'n ye please, barkeep! I thank ye kindly. I toast ye and yer enthusiasm, and now I shall retire to my corner of the pub, with me mates, who are drinkin' and carryin' on in a most undignified fashion. What a detestable, ill-mannered collection of ne'er-do-wells we be...

Thanks for the spirited banter, mate!

[Red Maria]

You know none of us have anything on the Hampton Court kitchen guys who here right now researching food of the court of James I. They are not re-enactors or living history performers, they are experimental archeologists.

Meaning they figure out how something was done in the past by doing it. In period costume that the wool cloth was hand sheared by period (or exact replica) shears, hand spun period fashion hand dyed with period natural dyes, hand sewn with periond hand mde needles. I saw one of the doublets today and it is wonderful. Right down to the anglets and bronze buttons.

They also brought in period and replica artifacts. I handled a few of the real pieces including a bronze button from the 16th c.. Cool huh?!

Interesting note. Most buttons were made of bronze not pweter up till the 18th c. when pewter took over as it looked liked silver. Bronze was cheaper. One of them said that in the UK most re-enactors use pewter because it is cheaper.

Interesting huh? :)

[imadrunkenpirate]

My look is geared toward instant recognizability, rather than historical accuracy. I'm not in it to please other reenactors. I'm in it for the sparkle in the eyes of the little kids, the grins and jokes from the adults and being able to appeal to people of all types.

I want everyone who is age 2 and up to look at me and instantly know I'm a pirate. That means flamboyant and excessive costuming, overacting, giving away treasure rather than taking it and having a kick-arse time with little regard to the traditional and nearly non-existant roles of women in piracy. There were only a handfull of known women pirates and the rest were wenches who aided, mostly from land. Tavern wenches, prostitutes at the docks and average everyday landlubber women.

*leaps upon a nearby soap box, sword raised high!!!*

To bloody heck with sitting in an encampment sewing!!!

Doing the laundry while people watch be damned to hell!! :)

I kin buy me own rum!!!!!!

I'm packin' swords, flintlocks, cat-o'-nines and all the weapons I kin carry!!!!!!!

And if ye wants t' bed me I'll take ye on me own terms not yerz, ye' bloody pirate scoundrels!!!!!! :)

I sirs, be a PIRATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!

(Get me drift lads?!! :) )

aye.. a cheer and toast to that. every pirate for themselves...? nah.. we much to friendly fer that.. i mostly cross the line between wench and female pirate.. maybe a tad lower than others.

Cabinlass Maggie

[the Royaliste]

My look is geared toward instant recognizability, rather than historical accuracy. I'm not in it to please other reenactors. I'm in it for the sparkle in the eyes of the little kids, the grins and jokes from the adults and being able to appeal to people of all types.

I want everyone who is age 2 and up to look at me and instantly know I'm a pirate. That means flamboyant and excessive costuming, overacting, giving away treasure rather than taking it and having a kick-arse time with little regard to the traditional and nearly non-existant roles of women in piracy.  There were only a handfull of known women pirates and the rest were wenches who aided, mostly from land. Tavern wenches, prostitutes at the docks and average everyday landlubber women.

*leaps upon a nearby soap box, sword raised high!!!*

To bloody heck with sitting in an encampment sewing!!!

Doing the laundry while people watch be damned to hell!!  :)

I kin buy me own rum!!!!!!

I'm packin' swords, flintlocks, cat-o'-nines and all the weapons I kin carry!!!!!!!

And if ye wants t' bed me I'll take ye on me own terms not yerz, ye' bloody pirate scoundrels!!!!!!  :)

I sirs, be a PIRATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!

             

(Get me drift lads?!!  :)  )

aye.. a cheer and toast to that. every pirate for themselves...? nah.. we much to friendly fer that.. i mostly cross the line between wench and female pirate.. maybe a tad lower than others.

Cabinlass Maggie

*Tips hat, bows, (one hand on cutlass)*

:) Bloody 'eck, ye gots ta luv that 'Quill!

'ere's to alla ye lasses wot choose to be Bloody Pirates!.Me hat's off!!

[GlueBeard]

Aye, Ahoy.

What am I driving at? Well, for the sake of clarification, allow me to expound a bit, if I may.

Authenticity is not an alter upon which to worship, nor is it an axis around which either reality or history rotate. The fact of the matter is, where garb is concerned, for instance, pirate exist as much today as ever, and pirates - real, genuine pirates - do wear blue jeans or tennis shoes. They wear whatever the Hell they want to, if for no other reason than because they want to.

Blackbeard, which is as good of an example of a historical pirate as any, may have been guilty of many things, but of ignoring reality to focus upon the monster of subjectivity known as "authenticity" was assuredly not one of them.

Whose version of authenticity is in question? Yours? Mine? Ours? That Joe down the street?

If one wishes to go back several hundred years, many clothes and shoes, for example, were hand-made. Are the needles that are used to sew modern replicas of supposed "authentic" articles of supposed "pirate" clothing? For all of the ado made about stitch count, how many of the authenti-nazis utilize needles or other tools that are hundreds of years old to create their garments? Perhaps we should all carry a loom about in our pockets. Or, have a woman as chattel to serve as our seamstress.

As articles of clothing, for example, were hand-made, in many if not most instances, common sense dictates that the look of individual items of clothing varied enormously. This has been the case throughout recorded history. People are people. Human beings are human beings.

Blackbeard was an authentic pirate, not because of what he wore, but because of who he was. But, he was a melodramatic son-of-a-bitch, wasn't he? He always putting on a good show, even if, at times, that very same show was a deadly one.

Pirates were, and are, creatures of convenience. Many became or stayed pirates because they viewed it to be a much easier life aboard ship than going the non-piratical route. History more than amply demonstrates that dead men's boots were often stolen, and this was true where both pirates and non-pirates are concerned. The Wild West, for example. Why? Because, those stolen boots might make walking more comfortable and more convenient.

Furthermore, human beings throughout history have always had a penchant for embellishing their garments. Pirates neither invented nor perfected this aspect of authenticity. It has happened throughout recorded history, and continues to this very day. Fashions can and do change, but it is no less equally true that it was quite fashionable among pirates to be their own person. How many pirates have their been down through recorded history? I would speculate in the thousands. Yet, they would be clones of one another, when it came to garment and apparel, even within a given timeframe? Not at all.

Life aboard historical pirate ships did not afford a great deal of room for individual pirates to be possessing of extensive wardrobes. I would day say that many had only the clothing on their backs at any given point in time. I doubt that they stopped off at the local Wal-Mart to pick up some new threads while sailing upon the high seas. When opportunity afforded itself, pirates seized clothing from others, if they wanted it. They enslaved people and took their lives on a whim, at times. Yet, they didn't just take what the other person was wearing? Of course they did. A fancy hat, a shiny bauble, a colorful piece of clothing, all would help to distinguish them, as well as to serve as a mean for replacing worn out and tattered articles of clothing.

I would agree, certainly, that a pirate of the 1720's would not be found wearing a pair of Nike tennis shoes. But, if any line of argument proceeds upon the waves of shallowness and weakness, it would be the one. It didn't happen, for it couldn't have happened. However, you don't live in the 1720's. Nike tennis shoes are available as a choice to cloth oneself in, where footwear is concerned. Could a 1720's pirate have arrived at a faire or festival in a 1995 Toyota pick-up truck? Or a 1977 Trans-Am?Or any other type of modern-day method of transportation?

If the questions of supposed "authenticity," where articles of clothing are concerned, is of paramount importance to replicating a pirate, then why didn't these piratical figures, themselves, care about uniformity of dress? Because they would have regarded such as contrary and antithetical to both the reality that they lived in and to the rules of common sense. Historical pirates could understand how slippery a deck of a ship could become. Could they not relate to a modern-day individual wearing shoes or boots that afforded them greater gripping power, where a modern ship's deck is concerned? Yet, if someone dares to place safety as a higher priority than the illusion known as "authenticity," they somehow become relegated to the realm of being less of a pirate than to someone who chooses to dress, otherwise?

It should be duly noted that I am not "up in arms" about anything. Any suggestion to the contrary is a slight of verbal hand, at best.

I can understand and appreciate why no one wants to volunteer to be hanged by the neck until dead. Yet, that is a reality that many pirates were faced with every day of their "career." It is also a risk and a reality faced by pirates in today's world. How quaint an approach it is to pander to the gods of detail over thread count, but to give such short shrift to the greatest elements of piratical reality and authenticity. My, but how some strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.

It would be true that some aspects of nautical life could be conveyed without necessity to resort to hanging people. However, by the same token, how is it that one dressed in garb of their choice are any less the able to demonstrate the same? If a person can tie a knot, they can do so no matter what shoes they wear. An individual who can load and fire a cannon can do so in the nude, or while wearing ballet slippers.

I don't have a problem, per se, with Hawkyns. If I have any difference of opinion with Hawkyns of note, it would be with regards to his disenchantment with children, where his attempts to live the pirate life is concerned. Attention to detail can and does serve people well in many aspects of life. But, there is a time and a place for all things, and attention to detail is not the definitive measure of either men or pirates.

Pirates being pirates, pirates had many sides and many facets to their lives. That is part and parcel of being human beings. They had comraderie and enmity simultaneously with their Brethern of the Coast and with their fellow man in general.

But, if there is any aspect of pirates which is authentic, it is that pirates, by their very nature and their choice of profession, tended to come across as very colorful characters. Perhaps deadly, perhaps thieving, perhaps lots of things, but colorful, nonetheless. And not because they wore a bright red velvet or neon jacket or didn't. Their colorfulness, as characters, was not dervived from their clothing, though clothing could, at times, become symbolic of that colorfulness as characters.

But, when you trace the colorfulness to its source of origin, one discovers that it is traceable to the fact that pirates were human beings, and that they held no monpoly on being colrful characters.

The reality, when all is said and done and all threads have been counted and all footwear has been checked and re-checked, is that what distinguished men and women as pirates was based upon a matter of simple choice or of circumstances.

If circumstances preclude one in today's reality from having their own ship, or of having their stitch count perfectly in order, then, as with pirates of all days and ages, circumstances can be a cruel master. Circumstances are often beyond one's control, as much as the waves of the sea were often beyond the control of any sailor or pirate.

The other item is choice. A pirate possessed choice, in many instances, if not in becoming a pirate, then in remaining one.

That choice manifested itself in many ways.

Sometimes, circumstances prevailed. At other times, choice prevailed. Those are legacies that we all, each and every last one of us, share in commonality with our piratical brethern of yesteryear.

Whether Faire or re-enactment, if one must excuse themself and head off either to the woods or to the port-a-potty to have a moment with Mother Nature, are they less of a pirate because they opted for toilet paper over their fingers or tree leaves? Would Black Bart pick paper or stench, if he had the choice?

Would Blackbeard be less of a pirate if he chose to squeeze the Charmin?

On a given day, a man is a coward. On another day, he is brave.

One one day, man is right. On another day, he is wrong.

But, throughout it all, he is what he is.

Being a pirate, therefore, is, I believe, greater than the sum of the individual parts. Individual aspects can lend insight, but even that is limited by the manner in which those aspects are both presented and received.

I did not coin the phrase "authentication nazi." It, like other colorful phraseology, is merely a label, to be worn or discarded at will.

However, I do wonder what Blackbeard's reaction would be, if it were suggested to him that he was less of a pirate because his stitch count was inaccurate?

Pirates of history did not deny to themselves partaking of the pleasures and conveniences of the day and the reality that they lived in, if it was readily at hand. History can be useful, and even pirates were aware of this. To fail to learn from history dooms one to be more vulnerable to repeating its mistakes, both on grand and lesser scales.

However, pirates of historical note, if anything, were not slaves to history, for to be such is still to be bound in the iron yoke of slavery.

History, if anything, would likely teach us that it is not a wise practice to judge a book by its cover. Yet, with such sharply in the forefront of our minds, where, then, I woudl ask, lies the wisdom in judging a pirate by their clothing of choice? Is that how pirates judge their shipmates? based upon what shirt or shoes they wear?

Or, are pirates possessing of such internal fabric that they are able, willing, and corageous enough to rise above such petty trivialities?

I, for one, whatever I may be call or not called, am not so foolish as to be unable to discern that the sea and nature are as vicious and as real and as unforgiving as ever. The hardships are always there, but if they are staged hardships, then the experience, of necessity, must be, at a bare minimum, somewhat dilluted.

I can, indeed, understand and appreciate someone taking pride in their work. Hence, I can appreciate why some view it to be deserving of their time to indulge themselves in their garments and baubles.

Yet, I shake my head at instances wherein garments and finery of any sort become more important than comraderie.

If you can master the sea and the waves and the storms, then you command my respect, regardless of what you wear.

If you demonstrate knowledge that I do not possess, then that will command my respect, regardless of what you choose wear.

If, however, you are either hung up on yourself or your knowledge, or if you believe yourself to somehow be more "authentic" than your fellow man, woman, or child, then such is deserving of nothing short of both contempt and mockery.

Whatever else may be said and conceded about pirates, it is incontestable that they were, first and foremost, people. If a pirate is to be judged on anything, where authenticity is concerned, then upon what fraud is it posited that that a pirate be a pirate based upon that which is external to them, rather than that which be internal to them?

In Hawkyns instance, he would appear to be a man possessing of considerable knowledge. Knowledge is, by its very nature, an internal thing.

But, application of knowledge is quite the distinct creature from knowledge, itself. The greatest truth, in the hands of a fool, may still be the truth, but its message may be muted in deference to the banter of a fool.

I would be remiss at this point, I believe, if I did not state quite openly and honestly my belief that I do not discern that Hawkyns dislikes children, per se.

But, I do simultaneously and likewise believe that Hawkyns would be well-served to reconsider his present disposition towards children at events such as re-enactments.

My own experience has been that children are far more receptive to learning than adults, and what a shame it would be to be possessing of knowledge that is not passed on to those who could appreciate it far more than any adult ever could.

At the point that any search for knowledge is taken to the extreme, piratical or otherwise, it becomes vanity, and by extension, foolishness.

[darkRose]

PHEW!!!!!!...me brain Hurts

Rogue's Pierre

[the Royaliste]

*Brushes dust off Poison Quill's soapbox, jumps on top*..........

"Aside from the obvious, that I am a sailor, I will speak right out of turn here for myself as a ship-owner, and for 'Tales of the Seven Seas' as a member, and state once again emphatically, that as faras the 'piracy' of it all, I and We are only in in for the children..I love reenactments for historical sake, but when I change into a 'Pirate Captain', it's only for the kids. No bottle of liquor or drug found by man can equal the rush when the little sucker's start jumpin' up an' down upon seein' us come about, and the looks in their eyes when the first foot hits the deck...Sure, I'm an adult pirate reenactor, and enjoy the debauchery and feasting of it all, but it still doesnt' compare to that little bucaneer sayin' to 'is mum.."Lookit mommy, PIRATES!"...........

*Steps back down off soapbox, grabs rum, and steps back aboard*.....

..."And really bad eggs"....................

[Hawkyns]

A long and well thought out post, Gluebeard. For the most part , I agree with you. As I've said at many point through this, there's room for all on this voyage. I have my preferences, everyone else has theirs. It's never been my idea to tell anyone else what to do here. I will answer any question that I can. What people do with those answers is entirely up to them.

On the children question. I am not a parent. My wife and I, when we got married nearly 28 years ago, decided children weren't in our game plan. That decision has enabled us to travel, enjoy ourselves and enjoy a childfree lifestyle, accumulating a good number of toys along the way. So my experience with children has always been with other people's. Never having been forced to do so, I have never learned the art of communicating with children, and my patience is not long.

I have, of course, at re-enactments, dealt with many thousands of children, some for a few seconds, some for long conversations. Those are generally those regarded as geeks or nerds by their compatriots, in other words, being able to hold an intelligent conversation. Those are the kids I like and prefer to deal with, not the least reason being that it pretty much described me as a kid.

There is, however, another reason that I prefer childfree events whenever possible. Growing up in the 60' and 70's, it was pretty much a free society, kids saw waht they saw, and while attempts were made to shield them from particularly adult behavior, nobody freaked when a kid got where he wasn't supposed to be, not much anyway. Now, we have the 'children first no matter what' police around. Anything said or done that some uptight git can twist into child abuse or something similar is fair game for the thought police. Stuff that was common and ignored among kids my age is now a ticket to jail. People want me to teach fencing classes to kids. In my state, that now requires police background checks, possible bonding, and, if I'm smart, one hell of a liability policy. Why should I?

When I'm being a pirate, I don't want to have to watch what I say, or who's around to hear it. If I want to flirt with a wench, or trade barbs and blades with a swordswoman, I don't want little Johnny's mother complaining that I'm being too raunchy. If my wife is wearing her fantasy pirate kit (yes, we do fantasy too, think Clive Caldwell), she doesn't want to be constantly tugging it into place so the naughty bits don't show. I don't want to deal with the local gendsdarmes, which any one of these activities could cause it this ridiculously uptight and litigious society. Yes, pirates could deal with children quite well. They didn't have the thought police hanging over their shoulders.

I get my pirate jollies from other things. Spending a night in a real Port Royal environment is my idea of a good time. My adrenaline rush comes from the smell of blackpowder smoke and the sight of a blade swinging towards me. We all talk on thsi board in the Hot tub, the Tiburon, and other places of how we'd like to act. I prefer to do that at events, too. So, I deal with children when I have to, but for my own enjoyment, I prefer that they are elsewhere.

Hawkyns

[Storm]

I'm a reenactor for the fun and learning. Of course, the added bonus of euphoria experienced from seeing those eyes light up and faces smiling (both children and adults) defies verbal expression.

Authenticity or non.....personal choice in my opinion and neither has the right to criticize the other for that choice.

[endkaos]

Since I be new at this, I haven't put myself into one category or another. However, taking some variables into consideration, I think I can pretty much say that I'm in it for the kids. Having 3 boys helps make that determination. Yet, education is an important opportunity not to pass up. Therefore, as I strive to develop my alter pirate ego, I hope to strive toward historicaly accuracy as much as reasonable over time.

In the end, I hope that I and my family and all who meet us have a good time and celebrate the history of pirates.

[Nigel]

Eh, don't worry yerself about whose 'category' ye fall into, mate. That would be kinda anti-pirate anyways. That thinking leads to a narrowing of yer perspective. There is myuch t'be gained from all aspects of pirating, that can broaden your horizons and enhance yer experience, and the experience of those around ye.

The important thing is t' have fun. Sounds like yer on the right track.

drink up, me hearties! Yoo hoo!

['Salem Bob']

Gluebeard,

Look, you are going on at great length about 'the spirit of piracy' - thats all well and good, I don't think anybody is attacking anybody here for doing there own thing with what is their hobby.

Where I must respectfully disagree with you is your presumptions regarding what people (specifically what historians or antiquarians specialising in material culture) wore, or used in a set time period (say, the 1720's, in the Carolinas or the Carribean) is somehow an unknowable mystery. Your emphasis on handmade clothing is true to a point - most people, including sailors, did not make their own clothes, but bought them from tailors, second hand clothes sellers (more likely option for people in a sailors social class), from pursers slop chests, or gotten as hand-me downs. These were made to patterns, following the general fashion of the day.

It comes across to me as if your making in that argument "You can't ever be authentic, so you should never try to". If that is the case, I think that is a very weak argument. If it is not the case, then I apologise for misreading you.

Clothing did, and always has followed discernable fashions, which people followed as best they might. We know what people wore for basic clothes in the late 17th or early 18th century - men wore shoes, knee high stockings, breatches of some sort, shirts cut to a general pattern, waistcoasts, and jackets of some sort, with neck cloths. We can discern from paintings, cartoons, ect, what sailors generally wore, as well as from lists from pursers slop chests and the like. There is a large ammount of variety within the general fashion, but the variety follows the general fashion. To pass the fashion off as somehow unknowable is disingenuous.

If one's motivation is to be an entertainer, or for entertainment, then they darned well ought to be entertaining, *but*, if ones purpose is to educate as to history and material culture, then they ought do as good a job of presenting that as the entertainer goes out of their way to be entertaining. To presume that either occupation is not Fun is a poor presumtion - the fellow who is in it solely for "fun", and looks down his nose at the fellow who enjoys putting a lot of work into replicating clothes and equipment is just as arrogant, and just as obnoxious as the worst example you can think of for an 'authentinazi'.

A point I made earlier, and applicable *if the motive is to teach an audience about history*, is that not all visual representations are equally good at representations for the purpose.

Example - which is the best visual representation of an 18th century ship? The "Rose", the "Royaliste", A sunfish sailboat, a guy in aluminum dory, or a guy on a jetski?

another example - which is the best visual representation of a pistol an 18th century pirate would have used? A functional, exacting replica of a Sea Service pistol, a dummy cast zinc replica ditto, an

1851 Colt Navy, a Colt .45, or a glow in the dark

waterpistol?

While none of the examples listed are *perfect* visual replicas, I think we can all agree that some are obviously better than others, and others are very acceptable substitutes, while some are not appropriate representations at all. My point here is that if the object is to educate an audience, and one is using visual representations, it behooves the presenter to make an effort to make a good visual presentation, as well as getting his facts straight.

My reason for sounding off was in direct response to your first post on this topic. From where I sit, I found what you wrote to be hostile to, or demeaning of people who *enjoy* trying to accurately replicate items. I did not find the same hostility present on the side of people who enjoy these things to those whos motive is entertainment.

I myself enjoy learning the history of 18th century maritime professions, learning the skills a sailor would have known, and replicating and using the items they would have used to the best of my ability - and then teaching others. I certainly do not think myself better than the people who have written on this topic who's first interest is entertainment - either that of others, or entertainment of self.

Pretty much every topic I have ever studied relating to history or material culture (and I have been at it a long time, and have had the good fortune to have some professional training in same), the longer I have studied it, the more I have learned, the more *I realized that I have hardly begun to scratch the surface of information there is*. When I see someone who thinks they have learned it all, I almost always find that they hardly have, and if they would open their eyes and ears they would find so much more that could be learned. Are there blowhards amongst those who claim to strive for authenticity? Surely there are - and they tend to stick out like a sore thumb to anyone who has more than a passing brush with the subject the blowhard claims to be 'expert' in.

I think we can all learn from each other - nobody here is trying to change anyone else, or force them to do anything different in their hobby. There is room enough in the Sea for all - but tolerance goes two ways - you can hardly expect it if your not willing to extend it to others.

[endkaos]

Pass the rum,

These pirates be needin some drink to slow their brains down.

[hurricane]

I so agree - these folks need to get a good rum soaked brain - like pirates should. I'd hate to hear those back in the 17th century muse about what those in the 15th century wore and whether someone's costume at the ball was historically accurate.

Now my head hurts.

Why don't we all just quit throwing volleys and drink some darned rum for real...

Heading for the tiki bar...... oops, not authentic either. Sorry lads!

['Salem Bob']

I so agree - these folks need to get a good rum soaked brain - like pirates should. I'd hate to hear those back in the 17th century muse about what those in the 15th century wore and whether someone's costume at the ball was historically accurate.

Now my head hurts.

Why don't we all just quit throwing volleys and drink some darned rum for real...

Heading for the tiki bar...... oops, not authentic either. Sorry lads!

Your point being?

Again, Just clarifying my position. Why is trying to accurately recreate costumes, tools, or weapons somehow automatically unfun? Why does the existance of people who pursue these goals bother others who do not share them?

I hope you do realize we have a far better grasp of peoples and material cultures before us than those who lived in the era before the modern study of history or archaeology.

[hurricane]

That's the point, Bob. There isn't one.

Not in this posting or any of my other ones. It's called humor, Bob. Levity. Something the world is woefully in short supply of obviously. :)

PS: My previous tiki bar posting was directed at endkaos, who seems to share my opinion about those who take themselves way to seriously...

[the Royaliste]

*Shuffles thru empty bottles on deck*

"RUM???..Somebody say RUM???".......

[endkaos]

*Shuffles thru empty bottles on deck*

"RUM???..Somebody say RUM???".......

I said Rum, but I don't have Rum; Do you have Rum; I want some Rum. Let's have some Rum, shall we? hiccup!

[Conner O'Dea]

There's way too much testosterone flowing here. I've got no issues with people trading ideas or offering up oppinions. In fact my own views have changed a bit cause of this thread. What gets old is the head buttin of those with different opinions who think theirs is best. Remember opinions are like farts. Everyone's but yours stinks.

Let's all belly up to the bar an have a pint or two of rum.

[Barbados Jack]

* walks in the pub, shaking off the cold* I be here for the RUM !

[hurricane]

There's way too much testosterone flowing here.  I've got no issues with people trading ideas or offering up oppinions.  In fact my own views have changed a bit cause of this thread.  What gets old is the head buttin of those with different opinions who think theirs is best.  Remember opinions are like farts.  Everyone's but yours stinks.

Let's all belly up to the bar an have a pint or two of rum. 

Here! Here! Hoisting one to a sound mind - cheers!

Thought I smelled something. Must be me. I've already left a lifetime of not so fragrant opinion here. Almost lost me sense of humor in the process (which would leave me with nothing but me looks)... :)

Moving on to other posts, much wiser and learned because of the fine discussion nonetheless.

Now where did I put that darned cask of rum... ?

[Conner O'Dea]

*Rolls an empty cask at Hurricane.*

Ya mean this one?

I love listenin to other's opinions. My problem (not just here but in reality too) is when we all forget it is ok to disagree with someone else.

Hurrican I'll top ya off with some o' me private stock.