dasNdanger

BOOTS!!!!

Speaking of which....

Did anyone notice in that thar shanty Blow the Man Down that I posted earlier...there is a mention of BOOTS??!

Just stirring da pot...

das

Aye, that be Chongo - a.k.a. Kim Kahana ...

das

Here's one set of lyrics...Keep in mind that this is a halyard shanty, and the phrases 'to-me, way-aye (or way-haye)' are calls given while hauling on the halyard.

As I was a-walking down Paradise Street, (as noted, a street in Liverpool, a busy port city)

To me way-aye, blow the man down!

A Liverpool bobby I chanced for to meet, (he met a policeman)

Give me some time to blow the man down!

Says he, "You're a Blackballer by the cut of your hair; (policeman mistakes him for a sailor from a Black Baller)

To me way-aye, blow the man down!

I know you're a Blackballer by the clothes that you wear.

Give me some time to blow the man down!

"You've sailed in a packet that flies the Black Ball, ('packet' is a ship that sails a regular route between given ports, like a mail, passenger or merchant ship)

You've robbed some poor Dutchman of boots, clothes and all." (BOOTS!!)

"O policeman, policeman, you do me great wrong;

I'm a `Flying Fish' sailor just home from Hongkong!" (according to some, a flying-fish sailor was "a John who preferred the lands of the East and the warmth of the Trade Winds to the cold and misery of the Western Ocean.")

They gave me six months in Liverpool town

For kicking a p'liceman and blowing him down. (sounds like he knock the copper down!)

~~~~~~~~

Hope that helps if anyone else is looking! There are three main versions of this shanty, this tends to be the most popular. Also, a little more info on 'blowing down' - Western Ocean Law was Rule with a Fist. "Blow" refers to knocking a man down with fist, belaying pin or capstan bar. Chief Mates in Western Ocean ships were known as "blowers," second mates as "strikers" and third mates as "greasers."

das

...otherwise, dudes end up looking like Ben Franklin... 

Oh silly Das! Ben Franlin's not period...

But his CLOTHES are!!!!

das

As I understand it, the beer went off pretty fast, so it was usually consumed first. Water, if possible, could be replenished...but oft it was smelly and tasted foul.

Correct me, please, if I'm wrong. But make sure to use the designer cat, and furry manacles...

das

Why does the chap on the right need a pair of what appear to be fur lined manacles and 2 matched floggers on his belt? 

Maybe he hopes to get lucky....

I must admit - once I led Mr. Das around the faire in a pair of authentic-type iron manacles...it was rather...empowering. :) However, we usually just keep up hanging up on the captain's bed...

Wow...that's an old pic, I got a lot more junk hanging off that bed now...I think I better hide the credit card...

AND, just to keep it on topic - BOOTS!!!!

Hawkyns - those guys are just having fun...in their fantasy world, that's what a pirate looks like, and to dress authentically would be...well, a drag. NOT drag, as in Blue Dancer...but just dull. They love all the little accessories, right or wrong...and they have fun doing what they're doing. I think of them more as Halloween pirates...it's not about accuracy, but about the 'arrrrs!!' and the 'shiver me timbers!!'

I have a cat (well, besides the two in that picture)...and I have carried it around at the faire, but it's all for fun. For better or worse, Ren Faires really aren't the place for authenticity anymore ...only re-enactments. Don't know why it is, it just 'is'...

*shrugs*

dasBOOT!

*note the 'authenticity' of shrouds, hanging inside the captain's cabin...

LOL - I'll have to take a look at that. We met Jan not long after that, when he did a very forgettable movie called Going Home with Robert Mitchum in my town...and yeah, I gotta agree, Danger Island was his best work!! Uh-oh, CHONGO!! Lol...I still say that line...sad, innit?

das

I was just thinking about Danger Island today, and wondered if any of you piratey sorts remembered this one-season kiddie show. It aired on the Banana Splits show waaaaay back in '68/69...when I was just a weeeee lass, and it's probably the reason I've always had a fascination with pirates...

Danger Island

Dang - wish I could watch it again, for old times' sake...

das

Um.... I don't think thats a woman.

Kinda makes ya wonder what sort of trollops catch Foxe's eye, eh....

Maybe if he was wearing boots instead of princess shoes, there wouldn't have been a mix-up...

das

As you know das, we discussed this about the Hornblower episode with Capt. Sawyer. I as many did, do believe that the man would have taken a male as his consort. But to speak of it openly would have never happened. Though I have no doubt that some of the crew might have guessed it.

Oh, really?? I was thinking about all the talk regarding Simpson and Archie - I never KNEW that the 'good' Captain was suspected of buggery, too!! LOL!!! SEEE??!! It WAS hushed up!! LOL!! Actually, in the books, I always wondered about Sawyer and Wellard...and suspected some sort of abuse going on there. Poor, sweet Wellard...no WONDER he pushed the captain!! (Breathe ONE word of what I just said here over at horatians, and I'll have yer guts for garters!!! I have a reputation to uphold there, so I gotta keep up my 'Horatio did it' mantra...)

,

Funny how women together with women are pretty much ok, but men with men is not. I don't understand the reasoning behind this thinking.

I'm not so sure about that - the thought just creeps me right out...but perhaps because I am a woman, and have no attraction to other women. It seems, perhaps, that women - since they usually view men as sexual partners - seem to think buggery was widespread. Could it be a case of transferring their desires onto their impressions of male companionships? Just like many men - who usually view women as sexual partners - oft times think that all 'girlfriends' are lesbians.

That's why I wanted a male perspective, and it seems that everyone feels about the same - the ratio of gay:straight in society doesn't necessarily change aboard ship - and that men, for the most part, don't just give into buggery out of desperation.

Thanks for replying, everyone!! Does anyone have records of punishment for buggery? I have a few, I'll have to try to dig 'em up...

das

I almost woke the whole house up laughing my ass off at that pic! HA! He's so serious! It reminds me of something...just can't place it.

Maybe it reminded you of a scary 50-year old Florida guy trying to be Peter Pan.

If that link doesn't work anymore, this one will. You were warned!

scary

Oooookaaaay....shouldn't this picture be in the buggery thread???

I think it's more like Rodman than Jackson:

Sorry folks...I know...way OT...but....I didn't start it!!!

Petee - I kinda agree with you. I don't think pirates - if they wore boots - wore riding boots. I lean towards what you think - something a bit looser, perhaps even a little shorter. I sure hope you find success in your picture hunt!!!

As far as the pirate guys go - well, they aren't as scary as the wench behind them...that costume really makes it hard for the rest of us womenfolk to 'compete'!

das

Actually, I'm just posting so I can be promoted from first mate, to notorious pyrate...and at this rate, it'll take me about three years... 

Well, y'll get thar twice as fast if half your posts are apologizin' for pissing people off with the other half of yer posts, like mine !

Oh no...wait...did I piss you off??!! I'm so sor...aaaahhhhhh, I see...you were just givin' me a suggestion...

I'll keep it in mind...but I'm finding I'm doing just as good re-explaining my confusing posts....

das

I guess my problem is that doggone justaucorps...wear one of those, and you almost need the bucket boots and giant, feathered hat

Not in the 18thC you don't, that's just our modern perception, as Kass already said.

That's what I meant, Petee...I mean, Foxe...

I know that the boots and the coat are from two different eras, but I understand why some combine the two...if for nothing else than to not look so top-heavy. Today (with our perceptions), when someone puts on that prodigious coat, you almost need the big hat and big boots to balance it all out...otherwise, dudes end up looking like Ben Franklin...

das

[i don't think so, Das. Remember Foxe said something about sailors being easily-identifiable as seamen because of the way they moved, their speech, and lots of other things that had little to do with the way they dressed. I can't quote his sources to you (he can) but people could recognize a sailor from yards away, and not just by his clothes.

So I doubt any attempt to "blend" on the part of a pirate would be very successful.

Now YOU'VE got Peteeitis!!!! What I meant is that, in a busy port town (with LOTS of sailors about), a pirate in his regular, shipboard clothes would just blend in with the rest of the sailors.

I think Peteeitis is contagious....

das

Hey, I wear the princess shoes too.

Can we have a picture of that, please??

My point is that wearing of the boots would be dressing down. Also like I said earlier, that I'm not sure a pirate would want to dress up at all, calling attention to himself.

I'm surprised I don't have you guys pulling your hair out by now!!

See, I'm thinking more along the lines of what DL is wearing in that picture - that looks...well, reasonable...to me. Even with shoes it would work...and perhaps a short coat if necessary. I guess my problem is that doggone justaucorps...wear one of those, and you almost need the bucket boots and giant, feathered hat. THAT would be dressing up...but I also see your point as to how boots could be viewed as dressing down...a bit 'crass', perhaps, in a world of buckle shoes.

As far as not drawing attention to themselves - yeah, they wouldn't want to do that. But if they went ashore looking like pirates/sailors, then I'd think they would draw attention to themselves if everyone else around donned fancy dress. Blending into society makes sense...all depends on what society looked like at the time. If they went into a busy port town, staying in their sailor garb would certainly be appropriate if they wanted to blend in, but if they were venturing further inland or staying ashore, especially for any duration, I would think they'd take to lubbers clothes to blend in.

But maybe not. It's not as if people had closets full of clothes back then...and most probably had to make do with one style of clothing.

Yeah - I've been enjoying this discussion - well, all the discussions here...nice to have an intelligent exchange for a change...

das

So far, what you are saying here is the way I feel about it - yeah, it happened, but not as widespread as some folks would like to think. Interestingly, it seems that most women have the opposite view, that men are dogs and will ...well...you know...with whomever or whatever is handy.

I think that a lot of people confuse male camaraderie with sexual attraction. Heck - I'm a huge rugby fan, I just LOVE watching those sweaty, smelly blokes jumping on one another, however, I know that the vast majority are straight. Male camaraderie is perhaps as confusing to women as female friendships are confusing to men. I mean, has any man ever figured out why women have to go to the restroom in herds?? (Personally, I haven't figgered that one out either...)

Now - there ARE straight men who will engage in buggery without thinking of themselves as 'gay'. In such instances it's often a case of domination, or drunkenness! LOL - I must say, my favorite joke is still the two straight guys waking up in bed together after a night of boozing, and looking at each other with those wildly suspicious and horrified expressions!! LOL...great gag...

Anywho - back to the subject at hand. I'm interested in hearing what others have to say...

das

Rumba said I can try this...but everyone hasta play nice, k??

A while ago Rumba and I were on a forum about the Royal Navy, and the buggery discussion came up there. Now that particular site was mostly visited by women, and so we only had the female perspective on the matter (with little documentation) and the majority of ladies swore that at sea, no man or cabin boy (or goat for that matter) was safe.

However, I had a different perspective. In reading through naval documents (the few that addressed the situation), I found that buggery was a serious offense, even punishable by death. I started questioning that it was a 'given' that every sailor broke down at some point in a voyage, and took to buggery. Sure, this stuff 'happens', and during that age it may have been so hushed up we'd never know the truth. But certainly there is some sort of documentation and, perhaps, as men - you could share your thoughts on the matter in a respectable and mature manner... *trying to keep the corks down tight in EVERYONE'S weevil cans*

On one site, I found this comment, "Despite the reputation that fuels much gay fantasy that shipmates are also bunkmates, close male to male homosocial camaraderie seems more likely in the majority of cases: pirate shipmates were united in common cause against lawful merchant ships, Royal Navy law enforcement and other marauders."

I tend to lean towards this opinion, but I would like to know what sort of factual information and documentation there is...as well as to get a male perspective on the subject.

das

YOU tell 'im!!!!

I am aware of the diary, and I don't mind at all hearing it again. As far as the coat goes - well...a coat like a short jacket is one thing...but a long, fancy justaucorps?? Are you telling me that they wore THOSE while working, or do I have yet another case of Peteeitis?

As far as evidence of 'dressing up' to go ashore - well, this all depends on the answer to the above. If they wore short jackets aboard ships and not the larger coats, then those pictures of pirates ashore in justaucorps (I'm going on memory of pictures posted about a year ago as evidence of wearing coats ashore) would be my idea of 'dressing up', compared to working clothes like slops and a short jacket. BUT, again...it all hinges on what sort of 'coat' they wore aboard ship...

das

Ok, then it stands to reason that if a pirate wanted to look his best on the town then not only would he put ON his finest, biggest, baddest boots, but he should also remove all the rest of his "piratey" gear, and go dressed merely as a gentleman.  After all, why have fashionable footwear if the rest of you looks like a dirty seaman? Yet all the bucket-boot brigade pirates I see always still have the headscarf, the sash, the weapons, the knife, the bloodstained shirt, the belaying pin, etc...

Exactly. Which is why I said somewhere that a re-enactor has to make a decision about what sort of pirate they want to portray - the pirate ashore in his finery, or the pirate at work (on deck or ashore, either for raids, or for secluded relaxation or careening).

I think the problem stems from the idea that a pirate during the golden age wouldn't be caught dead in public with his coat off. So, when folks go to faires, etc...they gotta wear those doggone coats because they are 'out and about'. Well, in my humble, that big ol' justaucorps just looks a LOT better with bucket boots than girly hose and princess shoes... OTHERWISE, everyone kinda looks like Ben Franklin...

So...what about pirate re-enactors going about in their 'work' clothes? Sure, many did wear coats even while working, but not those doggone justaucorps!! They're as impractical as those doggone bucket boots!! And I'm sure on hot days, a good number of men working the ship went, not only coatless, but shirtless as well. So...what about the stripped down version of a pirate? A shirt (with or without waistcoat), slops without hose/breeches with, and a pair of shoes is accurate, though perhaps not what would have been worn in 'public'. Perhaps if more guys would 'dress down', they'd be content with those princess shoes!

Again - it's all about deciding which version of a pirate one is going to portray. A shipboard working man or a shore-bound raiding party, or a man-about-town, trying to blend in with the rest of the gentlemen. And even with that, there are different 'versions'. A pirate might throw a jacket/coat over his working clothes if he's just going into town for a day for supplies, mingling on the dock and blending in with other sailors. So - several versions of the same 'pirate' can be created...it's just up to the individual re-enactor to decide which works best for him...or the re-enacting group, to decide what part of piratical life they want to portray (of course, anyone can have several styles, and incorporate the working pirate with the gentleman pirate and the dockside pirate all into his kit.)

Just my opinions...now...*tosses 'em to the seadogs*...here, tear 'em apart!!

das *poking at the embers...*

This would even be true of a pirate going to town. They wouldn't want to seem out of place, in my humble opinion. Their goal was to blend in.

In my case, I wasn't referring to the GAoP, when boots seemed to fall out of fashion, but to the earlier Buccaneer era when, based on several etchings and the like, boots were somewhat fashionable. During that time, I can image that the odd pirate or two may have worn boots about towne, if for nothing else than to look...well...cool.

Clearly, seafaring men of all sorts during the GAoP wore shoes...and many images of pirates support this. And out of practicality, I doubt that even during the Buccaneer era that any pirate or sailor wore boots while working the ship, except, perhaps, for a captain if he desired to stand out from the crew.

Now, on an aside...but not really. From the Vasa Museum:

Make of it what you will...enjoy!

das

I'm not convinced all this attention is good for my ego... but we won't know unless you carry on :)

be careful of what ye ask fer, mate...

Actually, I'm just posting so I can be promoted from first mate, to notorious pyrate...and at this rate, it'll take me about three years...

*searches through Foxe's weevil cannes...looking for one that's not been opened...*

das

*kicks dead horse and gets it back up on its feet*

Well...I wouldn't say that it's a dead horse, dead end, dead topic...nothing like that. I think it's obvious that, at one time, men (in general) did wear boots as a fashion statement.

The first thing is the 'when' - and it seems to be during the early part of the 17th century.

Now, the 'why' - because they looked cool! (that tends to be a constant throughout history) Let's face it, if they were as expensive as has been noted, only those with a few shillings to spare would be buying them. I'll take a guess that they were worn mostly by the richest and foppish of gents, and by those who...well... thought they were cool.

Okay - so...'who' would these gentlemen be? Pirates? Perhaps - if boots were somewhat common, I can imagine that the odd pirate or two would want a pair.

'Where' would he wear them? Well, certainly not while swabbing the decks! No - in looking at the pictures and all, it seems that boots (if worn by a pirate) were reserved for stepping out on the town and, if for nothing else, than to give the impression of being a successful gentleman, whether he was, or not.

These are just speculative conclusions I've drawn from these discussions...and partly based on period drawings and etchings. Obviously, men DID wear them in the early 17th century, and pirates WERE men...so it's highly likely that some men 'employed' as pirates during the Buccaneer era wore boots - somwhere, sometime.

But if we're talking the GAoP - well, it seems (for now) that boots were a no-show, both in society and amongst pirates, except in later drawings.

At least, that's how I'm seeing it. I do have a question, though. IF boots were worn by pirates...could they have been a regional thing? In other words, pirates/buccaneers in the Caribbean less likely to wear them, while pirates plying their trade in northern climes did? Do we have any documentation on cold water pirates?

das

I am still in the boot thread, right??

Onesies, who posts here occasionally, is a rider...and in chat she just said to me, regarding boots (on pirates): "Remember, i wear tall leather black boots at summer horse shows...only an idiot would do that willingly."

Make of it what you will...

das

*Edits thread to read: Pops the cork on Foxe's weevil canne*

das

Foxe, can we take a few paces backwards in history, to Drake. As a devoted Protestant, he never tried to conceal his hatred for Catholic Spain, and they, in turn, despised "El Pirata Drake". Just about everything you read from that era was a case of Catholic v. Protestant, as the nations behind the two religious ideologies struggled to gain the upper hand in the world and, more specifically, in the New World. 'Pirates' (I use the word loosely) at that time, like Drake, often had religious motivations/loyalties...but such convictions seem to disappear as privateering waned and pirate crews became more diverse during the mid to late 17th century, until such things just didn't seem to matter, only the loot did.

Or I might be all wet, who knows...

das