Tartan Jack

Also: With ANY "treasure," you must be able to unload it or its effectively worthless, just "pretty junk." The "value" of anything is what someone is willing to pay for it (whether that value is insane or not).

At the time, slaves were seen as valuable property. But, that property needed to be fed and had certain needs other property did not. Also, a good steward of his property takes care of his property. The "classic" politically correct view of all slavery is inherently evil is NOT something a person of the early 1700s would have understood. It simply wasn't a single monolithic institution. There were good and bad slave owners/masters and good and bad slaves. Some masters viewed their slaves as family members, while others viewed them as a talking mule (that said, some farmers love their mule more than their children . . . ). One element people forget is that slavery actually offered a legal protection that the lowest rungs of society didn't have. Under a "good" master, they were taken care of- sheltered, fed, and the like. I forgot the precise source, but it was of a poor farmer/sharecropper lamenting that the slaves had it better than him. Also, some "slaves" were more protected employees who served a business or institution. After the period (in the 1800s American South), Churches actually had "slaves" who were seminary trained, literate, and whose "jobs" were to be pastors to the local "slave" populations. I known of several specific documented examples (but don't want to say them here, as it could be VERY bad PR for them today, with the misunderstanding of what was considered "good," "Christian," and actually extremely "openminded" and "progressive" at the time). ********* -Cross, I'd LOVE to discuss some of this with you when we have a chance. For various reasons over the years, I've read far more than I ever planned to on slavery and found it far more complicated and more gray areas than I had every expected- as good people worked to do good in the legal and cultural situation they found themselves in. Some slaves were actually FAR better educated and "well-off" than lower-tier "wage-slaves." We started to discuss this, but got cut-off. Oh, and if anybody ties to think I'm some racist redneck, its actually quite the opposite. ********* Pirates rarely took EVERYTHING of value, focusing on what they valued at the moment, whether supplies, rigging, food, trade-stuff (commodities), or whatever. The ones who burned the ship had no value for the contents at the time, for whatever reasons. Other times, they valued the slaves and either took them for themselves, freed them as crew members, or sold them as property. Oh, and: When looking at historical stuff, try to understand what people did and why and pass moral judgements based on the values of THAT day more than ours. As for the article, as Foxe says, there is actual documented evidence for this more than just innuendo. Now, in the case of Blackbeard and the run-off of the Adventure after the QAR crash, I DO think there was money-valued objects and humans that made up the "treasure" they ran off with in the sloop.

Sorry. I've been quiet recently. You see, my favorite and local NHL hockey team just announced they were moving from Atlanta to Winnipeg, Canada. I'm pissed, depressed, and generally upset about that. Its been trumping most all else recently. When not obsessing over hockey forums, and working, and family, I've been reading the book "Shallops and Sloops," to learn more about one of my favorite period seacraft.

If you think it's slow, ask a question that will cause debate. Many log-on, read, but don't comment unless they feel they can add.

This happens about this time every year. It's the end of school (both university and grade), beginning of summer, vacations, etc. I'm just kinda surprised that PotC 4 hasn't had a "bump" in some form.

After discussing the wreck w/ one of the key archaeologists at East Carolina, I'm convinced it IS the QAR. Why? There is no other wreck it could be for the earliest it could be -by the latest/most recent artifact found certainly from the wreck (and not from some random junk that fell overboard later). Plus, all that has been found fits what is known about the Queen Anne's Revenge/Le Concorde de Nantes.

Hehehehehehehe Thanks for those links- (esp. fun when drinking and after midnight)

I really like the sword. But, no funds myself to pay for it . . .

One project I've had in the back of my mind is the conversion of several specific modern reprints of period books with softcovers into period-accurate books. My problem is the location of period books to see how the covers looked and were bound. I've got a couple American Civil War examples, but that is 150 years later. I was going to ask to look at the 1724 copy of Charles Johnson last weekend in Washington, but it was gone before I had the chance. (Oh, and I tried the searh, but it kept timing out for me tonight. Appropriate links to previous threads would be welcome.)

I've been wondering about the religious beliefs of those on pirate ships. Often they are portrayed as Godless, yet we have examples (thinking specifically of Roberts and his associates) of overtly Christian practices on pirate ships. Also, a number of authors I have read mention the Catholic vs. Protestant grouping of pirates/privateers. Primarily, they are discussing the Irish and the French, where Catholics went toward the Spanish side (or French royalist), while the Huguenots and other "Reformed" groups rallied more to the English and Dutch side (who where usually on the same-side in this period). So, based on YOUR readings, what have you found? Were the pirates "God-fearing men," by the standards of the day (as were most of the population)? Were they a godless horde, as writers like to portray? A real mix? Something else? (This should be an interesting discussion)

With the "Pirate Round" and the colonialization of both the Americas and India by the British and the trade between the homeland and the colonies, I was wondering about India-Indians (as opposed to "American-Indians") to on pirate ships in the Golden Age or the late 1690s-1720s. Are there any specific recorded examples? If so, who and what were they? Pirates? Servants? Just captives?

It is certainly marked, but not sure what it is supposed to say. It looks like "S A P J43" to just take a guess. Is it possibly the artist's mark? Also, the white bale has 3 marks on it: On the left is what looks like 2 lambdas like an M and a cross on top (The tan bail has the same and a 13 to its right) On the right side, the top one looks like a I and H merged and the bottom is N 31 The black round-topped box nect to it has a white rectangle on the lid side. Paper ID label? What is the cylinder on its top (who wants to venture a guess)?

After a (tiny) bit of looking, I saw which ships played the QAR and Providence: Queen Anne's Revenge: Sunrise (formerly played the Black Pearl) HMS Providence: HMS Surprise (modified HMS Rose replica converted for Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World)

Finally saw it. Overall, enjoyable. I kept laughing, though. So much was WAY over the top, completely outta-date, or just wrong that it was close to slap-stick some of the time. Oh, and the 1801-on British flag was sometimes upside-down-interesting to me. Also, George II was German born, raised, and educated with German as his native language. He was played as a bit of an English baffoon (by a GREAT English actor), probably best known in the US for his more recent comedic roles. George I didn't speak English (or care much for the British throne besides its additional power and money. I did like the many cameos of well known British actors. The Queen Anne's Revenge was an interesting artistic design, but terribly period-inaccurate and cartoon-ish. The HMS Providence was better. Even the 1750-ish date people are giving this film make the wheel less of an issue to me. From Blackjohn's comment, I was expecting a wheel on a ketch, sloop, or the like. Here, the 2 shown main vessels are both 2-masted ships. (The Spanish are shown, but not much.) Historically, the wheel was just showing up in the 17-teens and on new-built large ships- replacing the whipstaff. In the Caribbean, the shipstaff and tiller were still the primary rudder interface, but the wheel spread quickly to all but smaller vessels. So, by 1750, the wheel is plausible on both the QAR and Providence. Of course, we must completely ignore that the QAR was grounded, broken, and sunk in May/June 1718 (32 years before the 1750 assumed date) . . . Overall, fun and not to be taken seriously-> WAY too many period-errors and sheer impossibilities.

Were is it now? I'd be interested, but it would probably bankrupt me alone right now. Anyone else in the Carolina/Georgia area interested too?

But, . . . To Hollywood mentality, "EVERY" pirate boat has a wheel. That's from ship to schooner, to sloop, to anything above a rowboat.

Since this thread was revived anyways . . . Foxe elaborated on the previous post on Bonny and Reed in this thread, plus mentioned a further 2 women-on-pirate-ships in the Pirate Parley on the Pamlico (May 21, 2011). I'll let those who took notes or the FOXE himself to elaborate on the comments made (which I found VERY interesting, and not really from a "reenacting trying to justify something" POV- but rather from a sheer historical development POV). I'd give the names, but haven't put my hands on the few notes I took during the Parley and will likely mis-remember it very, very badly right now (been up 5am-1am, running on LOTS of caffeine after 4-5 hours sleep, driving 6 hours, and working 7 more -in that order- after the parley).

As promised at the Washington Pirate Parlay, here is the bump of the "Great Jolly Roger" thread. Much of what Foxe discussed there is also here. Oh and . . . Damnation to the Turnip Man!!!

A bit late, but if you want, I'd be OK w/ myself showing up in some form/incarnation.

Heah, Bright added the 2 lower links while I was creating the above post . . . I was referencing http://www.moonshine.com/ as the VA one. Also, the folks that make Midnight Moon also make one called "Catdaddy," which has a STRONG nutmeg flavor. It's too much nutmeg for me straight, but a good mixer. It has an awesome bottle, though, designed to resemble a "Classic" earthen brown jug: http://www.catdaddymoonshine.com Edit: Midnight Moon and Catdaddy are made by Piedmont Distillers: http://www.piedmontdistillers.com/ It is based out of Madison, NC, in the northern part of the Western North Carolina, Blue Ridge Foothills. That area was a MAJOR home of moonshining "back-in-the-day," esp. in nearby Wilkesboro, NC (1.5 hours apart, east-west w/ Wilkesboro to the west).

Thanks. That's the Virginia one I was thinking of. Here are the 2 mentioned earlier: http://www.juniorsmidnightmoon.com Oddly, I can't find Georgia Moon's home site. So, here's reviews of Georgia Moon: http://www.procyon.com/~froody/why/su/moon.html http://www.grainmash.com/?p=297 http://www.liquorsnob.com/archives/2005/11/georgia_moon_corn_whiskey_review.php http://americanhooch.com/2008/09/01/shine-on-georgia-moon-corn-whiskey/ (found through google/yahoo) Like I said, there are several "versions" of moonshine, legal, illegal, and quasi-legal (plus, home distiller w/ a license to distill, but not legal to sell). Those three reflect different styles, all based on the "real stuff." Additionally, there are a vast range of unique variations as the distillers added fruit, raisins, and other flavors to either the mash or distilled product (or both). My absolute favorite alcohol, period, is a home-licensed person in South Carolina that makes peach-shine. It is simply amazing stuff. Too bad he lives far enough away from me that it is hard to get some. Apple-shine comes in 2 versions: 1) Apples are part of the mash itself 2) Apple cider is mixed with shine "Apple Pie," at least the versions I've seen, is usually the second of these. Sometimes vodka or a grain alcohol is substituted real moonshine.

I WANT!!! Damn economy . . . I want my old (much better paying) job back.

Over the counter, there are several legal versions. "Midnight Moon" is a high-end one, while "Georgia Moon" is a corny-flavored "hard-bite-back" one. Both are pretty "authentic" for different style moonshine. There is also several Virginia-distilled one, mainly from one distillery (forget the name).

I was tuning in to watch yet another "the real history behind pirates of the Caribbean" show, this time on the Smithsonian channel. This one is called: "The Real Story: Pirates of the Caribbean." Well, . . . This one was different. They interview Angus Konstam, the English weapons expert that is on so many of the better British-made history shows, and some bloke sitting in the great cabin of some boat- named E T Fox. I wasn't expecting much, as most of these kinda shows are pretty basic and sometimes not particularly well shot or edited. So, I was pleasantly surprised to see our own Ed Foxe there. (I pointed out to my wife "Hey, THAT is the Ed Fox I've talked about all these years and am finally meeting in-person next weekend." She said "he's younger than I expected. Better looking too." Not sure what to think of that last part . . . ) The show itself is hands-down one of the BEST one of this type I've seen. The interviews were decently edited together (I'm sure the interviewees know of great stuff that was left out) and not too chopped-up in comparison to other ones I've seen. Visually, the show edits new-shot stuff with scenes from previous shows (like the one on the Essex chasing the slaver in the early 1800s) and even National Geographic's "Blackbeard: Terror at Sea" film. It all was edited together fairly seamlessly, esp. for a show of this type. They also interview one of the PotC writers (who actually knows the history too). There is also footage from the PotC film series, which relates to the overall theme of the show. Content-wise, it is an excellent primer and focuses primarily on Blackbeard, while being on 17-teens pirates in general. The show is aimed at giving the historical background that the PotC films are based in and telling the true reality behind it. While some parts I find to be a stretched connection, they handle them well. The only real complaints is how they edited the part around Fox when discussing Jolly Roger flags, implying he supports how they framed the shows description of them when he would nauance it FAR more. Basically they show a bunch of flags (the "classic" set) that Fox debunks on: http://www.bonaventure.org.uk/ed/flags.htm and intercut Fox talking about how they used recognized symbols of death and how they were used. That struck me a bit (basically because I know Fox and have discussed flags with him many, many times with him over the last half-decade or so. This article discusses the point of the show: http://www.monstersandcritics.com/smallscreen/news/article_1635274.php/Smithsonian-s-The-Real-Story-brings-untold-tales-from-blockbuster-films-May-15 Still, a decently done show and a good bridge between PotC and the actual activities of the 17-teens pirates. I wish I could see the un-edited interviews . . . that would have been better. I know that the Smithsonian Channel isn't a very widely known channel, so here is the on-line video of the show: http://www.smithsonianchannel.com/site/sn/video/player/latest-videos/related/the-real-story-pirates-of-the-caribbean-full-episode/900357858001/ Edit: Oh, and the actually ship they are on when discussing weapons and techniques (the black one) is Foxe's workplace, the Brixton "Golden Hind"