Gentleman of Fortune

Foxe

Its not that I don't like the frisking scene... its just that its not a close up so I really can't make out the details. Maybe I should have put a when I said it.

I like Hogarth too. My concern though is that he just started with his silver work in 1720 and not really the cool engraving stuff till the 1730s+. I feel that he starts to "paint" fashions that are more indicitive of the mid to later 18th C.....

My favorite is the Rakes Progress (or whatever its called).

"short jacket"

I guess I am repeating what i have heard on other lists about it being short in the back and longer in the front. THAT is why I want better pictures to study because I, like you, cant determine if they are like that. (too me they seem the same length).

My question is: Is this specific to sailors? Is it a shortened waistcoat or a shortenend justaucorp?

What I would like to do next is post "period" pictures here (in another thread) and we could discuss the details.

Maybe we should start wit Reade and Bonny?

GoF

Longarm

The conundrum is that seamen of different periods did wear (and have been documented to wear) earings. The point of the thread is/was that seamen are documented to wear earrings prior to the GAop, because it was fashionable to wear earrings then. Sailors wore earings After the GAop (late 18th & 19th centuries?) because it was fashionable to wear earrings then.

BUT

it seems that it was not fashionable to wear earrings during the the GAoP (1690-1720) and there is no evidence of anyone (pirate or otherwise) wearing them.

It seems that the "tradition" of sailors wearing earrings got started AFTER the GAoP (that would be the tradition that everyone quotes as evidence).

So Pyle et al were probably drawing from more "recent" tradition and the fact that sailors in the early 1600s were wearing them.

Remember.... Pyle was drawing/painting at 150 years after the fact as well and probably had less information about historical pirates then we do now. I would imagine that if he was alive today and drawing pirates, with the info availlable now, he would be painting them a little different.

GoF

Correct John.... cocked hat!

Thanks for the heads up CC.... but I am really looking for pictures, descriptions of surviving examples.

The cocked hat was around for about 100 years and I am curious as to the desiticntion between early and late.

In the little research I have done, It seems that in the late 17th and early 18th Centuries, people did just about anything to their hats and that there were lots of different styles.....

But as far as the basic "hat" goes. It seems that there was a round crown and a sugar loaf style that they then "cocked". By the AM Rev, it seems that they were offsetting the hole for the head to make the hat shorter in the front (4") and longer in the back (6-7"). I am really curious if this was done earlier as well or ?

The basic hat blank that most companies sell seem to be the round crown that is roughly 5-51/2 " tall. Also, the wool that is used to make them generally seems to be a wool/rayon mix that is felted wool, not wool felt.

the research goes on.....

Hurricane....

Can you e-mail me those photos... looks like E-bay pulled the listing as it is not accessible anymore.

Thanks for the heads up though!

GoF

Just kind of curious.... I have always assumed that those that came into "pirate" via SCA called it Garb. Others that have sailed in from other re-enacting time periods seem to call it "kit" or something else....

I had the great hard-drive failure of 2004 right before christmas and lost (never made a back up) all of my jpgs of original paintings etc of pirate stuff that I had gleaned from the net....

But anyway, I am trying to hunt down some info (hopefully photos of originals) on Tricorns for 1690-1720. I know that lots of "vendors" sell their version of a tricorn but most folks that do cater to F&I and Am Rev re-enactors.

So what are the differences between a 1776 tricorn and a 1702 tricorn? This is meant to include triming, feathrers, cockades etc.

Also, the ones that I have come across lately (later 18th C) seem to be made from wool felt not felted wool (there is a difference).

Does anyone have anything to add? (or links to pics?)

Thanks

GoF

PS the difference is

felted wool is a woven wool textile that is felted

wool felt is matted wool (like dreadlocks... kind of)

I would really like to read the passages on GAoP period justaucorps and Waistocats. Also, I'd like to get my mits on the patterns that she has regarding those items.

And while I have your attention.

I am trying to hunt down more infor on the sailors short jacket of the period. I understand that it is short in the back and long in the front, and has the mariner cuffs... but I would like to see more picures! Close ups too not faint water color of some chicks getting frisked.

Thanks man!

GoF

I hope my post didn't come across @ssh0le like.... I didn't have much time to post and now when I re-read it , it seems harsh.

I think that there are two markets for Pirate stuff.

The first, which makes up probably 95% of the market, is for Ren/Fantasy/Romatic/Hollywood versions of pirate stuff. The other 5% is for the folks who want it "Authentic/Accurate".

This is not a "pass judgement" on either side thread, as both sides have their place (and if they are having fun... all the better).

So to answere your question of:

I was just wondering why they would have designed it that way (i.e. was there some period look they were trying to duplicate?

They did it that way to appeal to peoples emotional and preconcived idea of what they think a cool pirate looks like.

If the workmanship is good, and you are handy with a needle, then you should not have too much of a problem "altering" it to look more like a 1700 shirt.

IMHO I would

1) make a stand up collar for it (you should have plenty of material in the existing collar to do this.

2) find a way to ditch the lace up front and opt for a linen tape closure like (previous post).

3) Those cuffs look HUGE too. I would try to trim em down to about an inch and they should close with two button holes and a linen tape.

btw... what is it made out of?

GoF

Hmmm....

Its very period for 2005 Pirate Festival wear.

Are you asking if that shirt is correct for Early 18th Century/GAoP?

no

shirt in question

this is a line diagram of what the shirt should looklike.... although in GAoP the collar is not fold down but should be approx 1" stand up collar

Also, it should not lace up the front but should have a button hole at the top on each side and you put a linnen "tape" through to tie it closed.

Here is a place to get the pattern

Get some 100% linen medium weight, the pattern, linen thread and about 5 hours of your time and you are good to go.

Also, check out my site (non-commercial) for more infor on building your kit.

Adding to what Corsair said

1689: the first calico printworks was begun in Germany at Augsburg and was later to grow into a large industry

1708 William III signed a law prohibiting the importation of printed silks, this only made calicos and silks more popular

1716 There were now more than 30 laws in England prohibiting the importation of calico and cotton; prints became more popular than ever.

So for early 18th I would imagine that they were still an unusual choice of clothing.... enough so to be have a nickname that reflected it.

GoF

And except for the early and late 18th Cotton will be banned in England to protect the domestic market from imports from India other places

If any of you overspent on the holidays and needs cash and dosen't mind parting with this book please PM me!

GoF

Well now that you have period shoes.... you are WAY ahead of the power curve as far as authentic kit goes. I would love to see the pics so get to work!

GoF

I don't think there are going to be suttlers there... per se. They just said that they were bringing a sample of Practical Goose stuff and if there was anything in particular.....

I PM's you so watch your mail!

GOF

Well if the Traveler is traveling..... he still has to have shoes right? So I would think that if the fashion was to wear red heels (and also the underside of the tongue of the shoe) then why not do it on all of his shoes? He is probably imitating the court fashion.... not actually going to court.

The trick is finding the right paint....

I did paint mine. I forgot what I used to paint them with though. I put it on, then didn't like it and tried to get it off.... it didn't work to well but it did tone down the red.

Check them out

here

not a very good picture of the shoes (the one with me in the justaucorp) but there is a good picture of Mark Beaby's shoes and they look great with the red heels.

How do you like the shoes? I was hoping that you would post some pic on the Piratebrethren forum....

Do they look like commoner shoes or do they look like upper class shoes.

On the link above, I think the Kevin Garlic shoes (they are mine) look like commoner shoes (which is why I was semi-hesitant to red the heels). The Beaby shoe from Bjarne's boots and Sarah Junipers look like they would belong to an upper class gentlemen.

Something more to think about.

Well I don't know.

I mean, there either is or isn't a knitted cap in the Hermitage that PtG brought back from the England in 1699.

If there is, than I would say its an option. I think the biggest drawback is that its about twice the price of a Thrum or Monmouth (from Kristie Buckland anyway. And its in Pounds Stirling (with a crummy exchange of almost 2-1).

Hawkyns

How do you like the Thrum from Practical Goose? I got an unsolicited e-mail from them asking to put a link to their hats on my pirate resources page. She claims (in the e-mail) to be the Kristy B of the US.

I am interested to see her prices.

Josh (if you are looking for a period knit hat, Practical Goose says they are going to the Pirate Feast with some stock)

GoF

Well I don't know.

I mean, there either is or isn't a knitted cap in the Hermitage that PtG brought back from the England in 1699.

If there is, than I would say its an option. I think the biggest drawback is that it about twice the price of ta Thrum or Monmouth (from Kristie Buckland anyway.

Hawkyns

How do you like the Thrum from Practical Goose? I got an unsolicited e-mail from them asking to put a link to their hats on my pirate resources page. She claims (in the e-mail) to be the Kristy B of the US.

I am interested to see her prices.

GoF

My personal belief is that they are all good for our period.

She calls the one "Peter the Great" because when the Russian Tsar visited London and the Low Countries (1698-99) to learn how to build his Navy he, was so taken with this English mariners cap that he bought one and took it home with him.

She based it off of the original survives in the Hermitage Museum, Russia.

The cap is tall in the crown rising to a rounded top. It has a double knitted down sloping brim about 45mm wide.

Black John... i say that is a Peter t G hat!

If you can't get enough of talking about historically portraying Golden Age Piracy, make sure you stop by the Yahoo Group

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/piratebrethren/

Over 100 members and growing strong!

Lets just don't let this turn into one of those "we saved your @ss" kind of threads that pit the UK and US against each other.

Just take a step back and look at world events. While like the US, the UK does have its portion of Jerry Springer Show morons; We, the US, have NO BETTER friend than the UK.

SO.... back to why we hate Hollywood & Authentic pirates!

What do you think is best...

Monmouth, Thrum or Peter the Great?

Kristie Bukland's Hats

Now I am not trying to open old wounds or anything but Hurricane just posted what I get out of the "hobby" most...

I had one of those "other world" moments at Pirates in Paradise last year when we were under lantern in Fort Taylor singing sea chanteys and sharing a period meal. Seeing seamen, wenches and pirates enjoying the evening, hoisting tankards and telling tall tales, most of us could have sworn it was another time. Very exciting when that happens.

That is why to me costume authenticity is really important. For those moments away from the crowd when it just you and other re-enactors in a setting that for a moment, transforms you back in time.

Now I know that 8 hours later, I will be back in a car heading home to try and make house payments so I'm not saying that I am trying to make 2005 be 1705.

But those little moments could be moments that have been shared by friends and shipmates long ago and that is what appeals to me.

As you can tell by the long laid to rest threads that I have pinged for later reading that I have been digging around into the old arguments but there is one question that I have that I am just burning up to know...

PREFACE: I am not trying to get your skiivies in a knot.... REALLY but since I have no one to ask except via these Forums....

Why is their such polorization between the entertainers and the living-history people. From the old threads I have read, it seems like, if you are going to entertain the public, than you fall into the street performer camp and that means you don't have to actually dress like the pirate you are trying to portay?

And Conversely, why does it seem that anyone that stresses authenticity of kit is immediately branded unfit to entertain the crowds? I think that there are equal numbers of bad kit pirates who can't entertain the kids as there are authentic pirates who can't.

To me, it would be more improtant that a "pirate" that entertains the crowd should look more like an actual GA pirate than someone who doesn't. At the end of the day, someone who sees a Hollywood pirate "show" is still left with a misconception of how a pirate looked.

And just becuase your kit IS spot on doesn't mean you have to walk around being an ass hole pretending you are in the 1700s. Does it? Cant' one sing a rousing rendition of Spanish Ladies in an authentic kit or does it have to be dramatic self-expression pirate-ish costume to entertain the crowds?

Thanks for the help... in advance!

ping

ping.... read later

I was trolling through old posts and found this thread gem.

The movie is now available in DVD!

I actually liked this movie... as Hurricane said it was a spoof on Space movies. I liked it alot better than Spaceballs.....

Oh no you don’t Hurricane! You are not going to bait me into some sort of “Flame War” thing. And if you are as much of an old hand at these forums as you say you are, you should know that is exactly what you are doing.

I won’t take the bait…

However, if you want to continue that line of discussion, you can PM me.

Anyway.

Back to the topic… Striving for Authenticity.

I know we all “understand” that folks come in to pirate re-enacting (which I am not sure is the word I am looking for) for different reasons. And maybe I am getting into a phase were the psychology of the “why” is intriguing me more and more.

I wonder if its because our society has so a low appreciation of history in general. I am assuming that most people that care about dressing up as a pirate also care about pirate history. But that does not seem to be the case.

Do people get hooked because a friend says, “hey there is a killer party next weekend, all you have to do is dress up like a pirate”. And they get their “pirate” outfit and that are suddenly pirate “participants”?

Or are they refugees from other re-enacting periods that are tired of marching in formation in their wool in the hot sun and figure, “I’ll do a period where I don’t have to worry about structure and accuracy”?

I think I am suffering from the delusion that historical piracy, with authentic clothes and gear, is far cooler than anything crafted out of polyester and plastic.

And why does it seem that you can’t entertain with authentic kit? You can’t be larger than life in a historically correct costume? Are you required to be “in period” with all the crazy dialogue stuff (that Hurricane and I seem to loathe so much) if you have a historically correct kit?

I am going to go gaze at my navel for awhile….