Gentleman of Fortune

Challenge for Foxe or ?

I am trying to make a pattern for the sailors short jacket. Which period picture do you think has the best detail of the short sailors jacket?

The Reade and Bonny photo make it look very baggy. The Woodes group make it look more waistcoat-ish.

Post em if you got em.

Thanks

GoF

I was just noticing how wide the trousers look on the Reade and Bonny pic that Foxe posted. They are huge! I am working on a trouser pattern now.

Hmmmm...

GoF

Even if Hogarth had a sailor with an earing, I am not sure how much credence I would lend it.

As I have said on this forum before, a bulk of Hogarth's work was done post 1720 and a lot of the fashion styles he depicts are 1730-1740ish. He almost always shows stockings tucked under breeches etc....

I am a fan of his work though

GoF

One of the Threads is here

Well now either black dye is expensive or it isn't. What are the chances that the ship a mutinous crew takes over and becomes a pirate vessel just happens to have a keg of expensive black dye to make pirate flags out of.

You have to take the flag's size into account as well.

Here is a repost of mine on the topic....

The question of how pirate flags were made and what they were made of probably comes up on every discussion board/e-mail list.

I think that the best answer for the question was that they were made out of any materials that they had available to them. If the pirates "took" over a 8 gun sloop, what kinds of things were available to them?

Sail cloth, linen, other flags (probably wool), paint, needles, thread, tar.

A good indication would be to try to find period examples of other naval flags.

Here is one that was captured by the British(9 January 1806)

Spanish Ensign

"Even for an era of enormous flags (British ensigns of the period would be 20 feet wide) this one is huge being about 33 feet wide and 45 feet long (9.8 x 14.4 metres).

"The Spanish ensign is made from a red and yellow wool fabric, often referred to as 'bunting’--- NOTE BUNTING IS WOOL---, narrow widths of the fabric are hand sewn together and a linen hoist strip is attached. The Spanish emblem is painted or stencilled onto both sides of the flag."

To me, tarred sailcloth with a painted and sewn on skull and bones (like in Foxe's post) would possibly be the norm not the exception.

Considering that most ships would have several different flags in their stores for signaling or identification, I would assume that the pirate would try to make a flag like the ones that he was already familiar with.

Here is flag construction and a quick quote from the site

"In the 18th and 19th century, flags were usually made of one of three fabrics, although a home-made flag could be made out of most anything at hand. These fabrics are: wool, linen and silk. Later, more or less during and after the Civil War, cotton became available in weights and finishes suitable for flags.

Woolen bunting, usually imported from England in the early days, is a light-weight, thin fabric prized for nautical use because of its flyability and resistance to rot from exposure to seawater. Linen was often used for the header and stars on such flags. Linen was also used for some "service" flags because of its inexpensive (at the time due to being the most common home-spun) nature. Silk was expensive and used for military and ceremonial flags. Thsese often bore complicated, allegorical or heraldic images painted on by master artists, often with different designs on each side"

I think that pirates probably started off with what ever was available and then worked their way up to a nicer flag. One of my books says that there was some lady that sewed pirate flags in exchange for rum, And I think UNDER THE BLACK FLAG book has an account of the pre trial procession of some pirtes that says they "had their black silk flag carried before them."

This is a mish mash of other post I have made...

GoF

Go here and type PIRATE into the internal search engine....

you should find something there...

http://www.orientaltrading.com/

GoF

Hmmmm....

This is a very interesting picture...

John, maybe you should break it off into a seperate thread

Dissecting the Pirate: 3 Dutch Captain in Shop????

Good call on the bolt spool thing!

GoF

Does that look like striped ticking shirts under the jacket?

Also, all the cuffs seem to be the mariners style

Does the Admiralty contract call for Dorset buttons at this point?

GoF

In fact the evidence for patterned fabrics stretches way back either side. Checkered and striped fabric remnants were found on the Mary Rose (1545), and San Juan (c.1565) shipwrecks, and pictures of seamen in striped clothing can be found right through the 18th century and well into the 19th at least

Ok... this is like the earring thing...

I knew there was evidence for stripey clothing prior and after the GAoP, I just wanted it FOR the GAop!

OK... stripes

Apparently the 1706 Admiralty contract called for (among other things)

Strip’d Ticken Wast Coats of proper lengthes, to be one Yard in length at least, with Eighteen Black Buttons, the Holes Stitched with Black Thread lined with White linen and two White Linnen Pockets, at the Rate of Seven Shillings each.

Strip’d Ticken Breeches of proper lengthes, lined with white linen, and two linen Pockets, with Sixteen Black Buttons, the Button Holes stich’d with Black Thread, at the rate of five Shillings each

Strip’d Shagg Breeches lin’d with Linnen, with three Leather Pockets, and fourteen white Tinn Buttons, the Button Holes stich’d with white Thread, at the Rate of Tenn Shillings and Sixpence each

So it seems that striped trousers (if made from Linen ticking or duffel/shagg wool cloth) AND waistcoats are appropriate for our time frame... or at least post 1706.

GoF

Cotton...

Uhmmm... well most "re-enactors" like to use cotton because they can get it at their local fabric shop in all kinds of colors and prints for $2 a yard.

The truth is that the kind of cotton we have today would have been very expensive in the late 17th early 18th.

Cotton was being produced in the collonies, but the manufacturing of cotton did not get underway until the mid to late 18th century.

So if you could find a nice homespun style of cotton, that would be great to make your slave clothes out of.

Cotton was used in conjuction with other fibers though at this time in wool/cotton and other blends.

I reccomend wool, linen (you can make the outter garmets from linen too), fustian, osnaberg....

Nicole Kipar's site is one of the best web refrences available... definately worth the time

also, check out my site (link below) for sources of fabrics too!

Good luck!

I was kind of hoping to find a picture/engraving/wood cut etc of a black pirate that was "painted" during the GAoP....

the search goes on....

uhhh... yeah

Is the one with the umbrella a pirate?

GoF

Well, I was really impressed by Foxe finding a period picture on such short notice. Very well done and it provided lots of other answers and new questions (the other things in the picture).

SO here is the next challenge for anyone who can help "solve" it.

There has been a lot of talk about equity among the races in the GAoP. Has anyone seen any pictorial reference of Black and White pirates together?

post em if you got em!

GoF

The cocked hats...

What caught my interest was how low the crown is. Most repros available all seem to be from the same style hat blank with a high (5 1/2" crown). These seem to be more of a flatter, shorter crown 3"?

The one with his hat off and puting something in in... doesn't seem to be a cocked hat. Maybe a Peter t Great knit??? . Or a battered round hat. Also, woods is the only one with trim on his hat (ooops just saw the one on ground) and his hair is pulled back and tied with a ribbon.

Personally, I don't think that they got the best artist that they could of... but like Foxe has said all along, it could have been drawn by someone that was never near sailors/caribbean.

All the trousers seem to be highwater, below calf and above ankle... not too good of a hem job either as they all appear kind of ragged edged

Double buttons... I don't think so. If you look to the right, the guy pointing has a similar coat but what I think we are seeing is the artist inablility to show the button hole clearly, we are seeing the "shadow" of the ends showing... So I think it is a badly drawn row of button HOLES.

To me it seems like they (the group of pirates) are wearing short jacket (no pockets?), and a waistcoat under that.... then shirt. Am I seeing this or just think I am seeing it?

Also, the neckerchiefs on all of their necks are white/off white. I saw this discussion in another thread but when do black scarves come in to the timeline?

I Posted the Guayacil raid in a new thread... lets leave this one for Reade and Bonney comments and move the new disccusion to Dissecting the Pirate: 2 Guyacil

Keep up the good work mates!

GoF

This is a fovorite of mine (really Foxe) it Depicts the Raid on Guayacil.

FROM FOXE

Brief history: Woodes Rogers commanded a privateering voyage in 1709 or thereabout, raiding the West coast of South America. one of the successes of the voyage was a raid on the port of Guayacil which is depicted here in an engraving from Woodes Rogers' 1712 published account of that voyage.

ok lets talk about what we see.

You did good Foxe!

Interesting too as the ones being carried from the ship are open?

Do the early or later ones have shleves or dividers for gear. The seem pretty big. Must have been really cramped quarters with all the men and gear.

I think we will have to dissect that photo in the future.

So if there are any more questions or comments about the Reade and Bonny photo, when can go to the next one.

Foxe, if you have a good one of the whole firsking picture, go ahead and post it.

GoF

RED MARIA

That is soooo cool and alone worth this thread!

Keep up the good work guys!

FOXE

What did the GAoP sailor put all that stuff in? A box, bag. Can you post an image (repro or otherwise?)

GoF

OT

ARGGHHHH!

I am trying to post a picture but i keep getting

Sorry, dynamic pages in the tags are not allowed

What does this mean and what am i doing wrong????

G

NOW THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS HOPING WOULD HAPPEN!

this stuff is great guys!

EXPOSED BOOBS AND FLOWING HAIR

Well, remember, nobody outsideo of Rackam, Bonny and Reade really knew their true identity till after they were caught. So here again, the man who was employed by the the publisher of Johnson's book or a broadsheet etc was probably told, "paint us a picture of Reade and Bonny".

My bet is that the opened shirt is just to reiterate the fact that they are women and are show some sensational boobage.

And Long hair was in fashion. If you could grow it out long you could look fashionable without the incredible expese of a wig. If I were you though I would just wear it like everyone else wore it....

Of course, don't let me stop you from going to a pirate event with your boobs hanging out OR AT LEAST wait till i get there to do so

TROUSER COLOR

I think the natural linen/hemp/fustian color was probably the norm just because you stay cooler in lighter colors than you would in darker. Slops are work clothes too, so maybe not worth the expense and hassel of colored material....

The AXES

The thing is that these look more like normal axes than naval/boarding axes with the spike. Maybe I have not seen enough originals but maybe the artist had not seen enough either and is just drawing what he knows.

Keep it coming.... when we exhaust R&B lets do the frisking painting ok FOXE?

GoF

I guess this has only just caused more confusion instead of less.

The picture I originally posted was from the back cover of CJ 's GH. I assumed that it was from the original edition and posted it.

After Josh's inquiry, I opened up the book and posted the ones that were in the text.

So assuming the ones above in post one are correct....

I would imagine that, as Foxe has said time and time again, the artist who depicted the women were far removed from the carribean and from piracy and probably lived somewhere in England.

The sensation of 2 women dressing like men and turning to piracy was just too incredible and fasinating for the citizenry of the early 18th Cent. So I would imagine that the hair and the naked boobs is just playing in to that.

Regarless.

They are wearing shoes, not boots and the tounges do not seem too high. The buckles are small though wich meshes with what we know about period shoes.

We know that trousers for sailors are starting to come into fashion sometime in the early 18th Century and, Thomas's testimony and the engravings bear this out. The are button front with small buttons exposed. The length seems to be above ankle, below calf and are relatively straight.

Both seem to have the standard shirt type for the period. It is not lace up the front but probably ties at the top. I imagine that their shirts are not tied in order to show us that they are women (look boobs). Although some of the men I have seen at events dressed as pirates have bigger boobs than those depicted here

Coat: The coat seems resonably short and has what appear to be medium small cuffs. Can anyone make out any more details here?

Hats.... Peter the Great style? They certainly are not headscarves. The scarves they are wearing are around their neck.

Anyone else?

This is not going exactly where I wanted it too so let me try again.

The picture I posted was from my copy of Johnsons... but not the right picture.

I will get the correct one from the first edition and post it later.....

Jessie,

I am curious too. That is why I would love to see more original hats from our period.

With felted wool, its a cloth that has gone through the "fulling process". You can do this yourself. Throw a wool blanket in the wash machine on warm with a little soap and viola.

The fulling process (or what makes it felt) is the result of the individual strands of hair embeding themselves in other strands. Each strand of wool/hair is not smooth but has little finger like projections, the soap makes them open up a bit and helps them slide over each other "locking" them in.

With wool felt, you make layers of wool bats.... here is a visiual description of the process

If you start with a wool textille (wool fel, the end result is a more flexible felt. But if you start with chunks of wool or wool batts, the end result is a little stiffer and more suitable for a hat.

The few picutes I have seen would make me believe that the are wool felt, but these have been late 18th C Tricorn/Cocked Hat examples.

I thought this would be a good exercise to have us all discuss and make comments on Authentic Pirate costume.

Foxe makes an excellent point when he makes the claim that: "While we assume that the person making the engraving is intimately familiar with sailors and pirates, chances are they are an artist working back in England and far removed from Pirates and Piracy".

Even though, these are the best records we have for determining what is authentic costume for GAoP.

We have the added benefit of an eyewitness description of Reade and Bonney from the testimony of Dorothy Thomas who was on a ship that was attacked by R&B.

Her description of Reade and Bonny during their trial is as follows:

...the two women... were then on board the said sloop, and wore mens jackets, and long trousers, and handkerchiefs tied about their heads...

(I screwed the pooch and posted a 19C pic which messed up my point.)

I believe that these are the ones from the 1724 General History.

If anyone has a better picture than this, please post it...

How is it made? Is it woven or is it Felted like wool?

Curious

GoF