Gentleman of Fortune

This one is interesting... but I assume that it may be from a later version of GHoP?

Reviving an old thread cause E-bay's been good to me!!!

Look what I scored guys!

GoF

I think that this is a great idea! Especially the Ocracoke thing. You could re-enact the pirate shindig there on the beeches when blackbeard and Vane in September of 1718. That would be a great thing to re-enact... A WEEKLONG PIRATE PARTY!

I'd love to help.... if only virtually via computer!

GoF

Weren't they going to build a replica of the Whydah at one time... till the NAACP nixed the idea?

Sadly, for me though, coming from Germany... its hard to include (read: convince the wife) that a trip to an out of the way place to visit a museum is the best use of limited time....

Oh well.

GoF

The operative phrase in his post was "the next month or so". The PiP is a must, but not for a long time off. And how the book does initially will dictate how deep their pockets are to send him to anything 8 months away.

Not to sound rude, but what exactly are you going to do?

Do you want to dress up like a pirate and participate in the Festival.

or

Being that the "Man" is paying, I would imagine that they want you to Hawk your wares at a table or something...

Does this mean you, a table, some books, and a cheesy grin on your face?

I can't speak for a lot of festivals, but I would contact them as soon as possible to see if they have a "location" for the above mentioned table and where its going to be. If not careful, you could get stuck next to the guy selling Styrofoam pirate swords and will end up ruining the effect/look of the accomplished author signing his best seller.

At least the Hampton Pirate gig is in the middle of several large cities.

Hit the festival, but also try and get to the Boarders Books and B & Ks in the area too. For that matter, how about the Airport bookstores too. They have a captive audience and the added benefit of charging insane prices for hard backs.

PLUS

The following weekend is Norfolk’s Harborfest. YOU get a twofer! That place is NUTs for the whole weekend. Music, ships, entertainment, and rich middle age Buffet fans that are your meat and potatoes audience. They have about 500 hundred thousand people come through on the weekend. And if 1 out of 100 buys a book…..

Definitely think about your look though. I think you are going to be more appealing as the middle aged buffet fan writer type than some weirdo pirate re-enactor wannabe. Hawaiian print shirt, khaki shorts, Birkenstocks, expensive sunglasses, and margarita in hand. Look like you own a sailboat, not a great collection of fake pirate swords.

Just my two cents

Good luck

I was searching the net (and the Whydah site) to see if there was any more information or pictures of the artifacts available. I read where their were 73? buckles found, a bunch of Grenades, and other neat objects....

Are they posting any info on this or am I being teased into going to the Museum or buying a book?

GoF

Thanks Das! That was a helpful link....

if you have not already, I would love to invite you to join the discussion at the

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/piratebrethren/

yahoo group site. A lot of interesting discusiion goes on their too!

GoF

Its actually a fun gig. I did it in 2000 and had a blast. They welcome both Historical and Fantasy pirates. If you need a place to stay, you might go to the re-enactor section and follow the links to one of the "hosting" groups. Some of them are local to the Hampton area and might have tips on some cheaper places to stay.

Also, Newports News airport is a little closer to the Gig than Norfolk, but I have no idea what kind of prices they have.

There is onsite "camping" with the re-enactors, if that is your pleasure. Hoprefully, it won't be more than 95 degrees and 99% humidity that early in June

If you can make a week out of it, the following weekend is a HUGE waterfront festival.... Nofolk's Harborfest (again this is in Virgina, about 25 miles from Hampton)

You can go in pirate kit if you like, but you might just enjoy the wandering around with the other 500K people that enjoy the tall ships, entertainment and other fest events.

It would be very easy to kill a week in the "local" area. Yorktown, Newport News (Mariner's Museum in Newport News is WORLD CLASS), Historic Norfolk, Jamestown, Williamsburg, and Virginia Beach are all well within 1 hour from Hampton. If you haven't planned a summer vacation yet, it may be one of the best weeks spent in a long while for you.

Maybe I should work for the tourist board.....

As in "the ones I have seen from the Wydah wreckage" or in pictoral refrences?

They would be a neat thing to have in the background of a smuggler/pirate trader event, but i am not sure anyone makes them wood bound anymore.

GoF

Does anyone know when iron banding on barrels started? Or more specifically, are barrels made by the ships cooper iron bound or wooden bound for 1690-1720?

Anyone?

GoF

WoW Patrick!

You are the man! I love watching someone do research, ask questions, and try to build their kit as accurate as possible!

You are doin a fine job and are quickly becoming the expert yourself.

Don't worry about looking "piratey". A rule of thumb would be, "If it looks piratey to modern eyes, its probably not authentic!"

I don't know of anyone doing this "period" or Genre of GAoP but I would bet you are at the forefront.

Keep up the good work and keep the update post coming!

GoF

PS

Can you post some pic of you in the kit (all the parts) that you have so far!?!

even so....

as I said in my first post, EITHER way it is an interesting question.

I imagine that cargo manifests survive for what goods were being commercially transported, but It would be interesting to see receipts for consumables used by the ship. Did they make their own Scotish Duff, Hard tack, and Salt Meat on board ship? If it was prepared before hand it had to be bought in quantity and stored aboard ship….

It would be nice to see the receipts, would it not?

GoF

I am confused... are you asking if anyone has access to historical receipts (bills paid for goods received)…

Or are you asking if anyone has any historical recipes (instructions for making) for food items eaten aboard ship.

Not trying to ding you on spelling errors as either one is a good question.

GoF

RR... I posted it: INITIATION RITES & PUB MANAGEMENT

New to the Pub or have a 'newbie' pyrate inquiry? Please post here first! More seasoned crew of this wretched vessel will be happy to help you out and get you aquainted. Additionally, use this section to post questions and comments about the Pub to the moderators

So if questions about pub management don't go there.... then?

Anywhoo.

I guess I am just taking a too literal interpretation of the sub forums title... see above

It seems to me that its already fractured... Pirates & Paradise is an event but has its own forum and its not in "RAIDS"

THE WAY TO A PYRATE'S HEART:Of drink and feasting. and Beyond piracy seem to be 2 forums with the same kinds of posts

Q: Latest post in "way to pirates heart"? A: what are you listening to?

So when people talk about clothing and ancillary items they are not grouped to gether but scattered about (Twill, Plunder, Rabble Rousing and who knows where else.)

Maybe some spring cleaning is needed and some re-organization. But maybe people who like to write Pirate Hiakus and Limericks are more inspired when they post them in Rabble Rousing than in Pirate PoP... I don't know.

But since I am being shouted down already I will just leave it alone.

PS

John, most of the authenticity disccusion about clothing happen in Twill... (as you know)

GOF

PS

Foxe... that was the picture I was thinking about... I thought it was earlier but you are right, it doesn't predate the others....

Still, if it is a 1680-1690 picture it is early for trousers.

Sandal?

Possible, but now In the close up there seems to be a horizontal line of the shoue under where the ankle should be.... I think its a shoe. However, not much of a tounge.

This is great stuff!

GoF

I think it is time to add a new sub forum. Could we have one to strictly discuss Clothing/Pirate garb (one for Authentic and Fantasy).

A lot of threads are about clothing and they don't necessarily fall into Plunder (which should be buying and selling IMHO) and Captain Twill (which is academic talk on all historical topics).

I know we have a lot of sub forums already, but I think that this is one area that needs its own home

GoF

PS

I put forth Foxe as a moderator too!

I really like this one. (young man with raised glass).

This looks to be the really short style of jacket. I don't see cuffs or pockets on this one.

Also, if it is/was painted in the 1680s it is probably one of the earliest pictures of a sailor wearing trousers (I thought the one of Black Beard was one of the first and that is post 1717.

Also... what kind of shoes is he wearing... mules?

GoF

geeshh....

some of my most brilliant stuff..... wasted....

GoF

why is there such animosity againtst authentic

The "friction" exists because it inherently sets up an us-against-them scenario. Our stuff is more correct, we have researched more than you, we are more dedicated etc etc.

The retort is; we are more engaged with the public than you, we have a better time than you, we are better entertainers than you….

It’s a result of both sides sharing the same interest but wanting something entirely different out of the experience.

For the authentic people, it’s an opportunity to “time travel” to wear the clothes and try to create an experience that might have been had 300 years ago.

Hurricane made the point about an event he was at and the pirate participants were sharing the beverage around the campfire at night and it was a kind of magical experience that could have taken place back in the GAoP.

Now, I know we all get back into our cars and drive home and pay our bills and spend the rest of our lives rooted in the 21st century, but we savor those little time travel moments and it fuels our fire and enthusiasm. What kills it for the Authentics are the little reminders that we are in the 21st century. Incorrect clothing items, watches, glasses, polyester etcetera that ruin the “vibe”.

The fantasy pirates have the same interests in pirates, but the thrill is not in the time travel experience, but in living “a different life” in the present. That sounds strange but let me clarify. Joe Blow who lives his every day life as just an average Joe gets to dress up in fantastic un-average clothing and walk around as the center of attention.

The same people who would not say boo to anyone if they were in their normal clothes in a bar by themselves, suddenly jump up on top of a table and, surround by their fellow “pirates,” belt out a rousing rendition of Liverpool Jodies at the top of their lungs. They enjoy not being “their 21st century self” and take particular delight in making sure they are surrounded by people who will live the moment with them. That person doesn’t care whether their wearing linen or polyester, whether they have a percussion pistol or a squirt gun. What kills it for the Fantastics are the folks that ruin their vibe by telling them their buttons should be brass not plastic.

The Authentics can’t understand why the Fantastics can’t do what they do with Authentic gear and the Fantastics can’t understand why somebody should care if they are wearing Rayon or not.

Hatfields and McCoys?

I don’t necessarily think so. For the most part, 95% of Pirate “events” in the US are “celebrations” or “festivals” of some sort. I have yet to see really bad “pirate” re-enactors at living history events or timeline events claiming that they are “authentic”. If you are celebrating the 300th year of XYZ town, what does it really matter if you have a plastic eye patch and Pittsburg Pirates t-shirt on?

Conversely, if you are doing a public demonstration and are inferring that you are a GAOP pirate, why don’t you strive to look like one?

GoF

This is not a shameless plug as I just saw it on e-bay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...6516958941&rd=1

GoF

This information below is on my webpage (see below) and comes from several sources. The discussion started at the Piratebrethren Yahoo Site and reflects several threads and discussions on that site .

The sources include "Working Dress" by Diana de Marly (1986), Christopher Lloyd's "The British Seaman" (1968) and G.E. Manwaring, “The Dress of the British Seaman from the Revolution to the Peace of 1748, "Mariner’s Mirror, The Journal of the Society for Nautical Research, Volume 10, 1924.

In 1628 the British Admiralty made sailor's clothing, called "slops," available to press-ganged men. They consisted of a suit of canvas with doublet and breeches, Monmouth caps, cotton waistcoats and drawers, stockings, linen shirts and shoes.

The Pursers stood to make a profit from the sales from the slop chest, but since clothing is a necessity, it seemed unfair to allow each ship's purser to name his own price. Thus, by 1663 the Admiralty began to issue specifications for the types of clothing (slops) and set fixed prices. It was also stated that they had to be sold before the mainmast, once a week, and in the captain's presence.

So, while the Royal Navy did not have or issue an “official” uniform until at least the mid 18th Century, they did issue a contract for, and made certain types of sailors clothes available to, sailors on their ships and in the major costal towns where England’s sailors were.

Though these slops were not a uniform because there was no "order" for the sailors to wear them, Manwaring does say that, "Nevertheless, as these were the only clothes permitted to be sold on board ship, and the men were allowed to purchase them on a long credit, it is safe to assume that the supply was eagerly taken up”.

One of the most important facts overlooked time and again when examining the common members of a pirate crew is that seamen of the Golden Age period did not consider themselves "Navy" seamen, or "Merchant" seaman, they were just "seamen". One year they might be in the RN. The next year they'd be on a trading voyage to the East Indies. That might have been followed with a six months tour on a Newcastle collier, and then maybe a quick jaunt on a privateer, as the fancy and opportunity took them. So even if many pirates hadn't come directly from an RN ship there's every probability that they had RN slops in their chest from earlier voyages.

In 1706, a new contract was issued by the Admiralty for the kinds of clothing that would be acceptable as slops; and they were pretty specific. The contracting system was not all that different from what we have today; that is, the government published what wanted, and various firms bid on the contract. The winning company had to have slop clothing available at set prices to Royal Navy ships. The government even provided "sealed patterns" of each garment that was available in various English ports (even in Lisbon). Sea captains needing to outfit a crew could compare the quality of the local slop supply with these samples.

Each contract ran for a limited number of years and then a new contract was issued and opened to bidding. From 1706 to 1748 (other contracts that affect the GAoP were issued in 1717 and 1724) each new contract specified pretty much the same set of clothing, with some minor variations, and also specified the price of each article. The 1706 contract, for example, called for:

Shrunck Grey Kersey Jackett, lined with Red Cotton, with fifteen Brass Buttons, and two Pockets of Linnen, the Button Holes stich’d with Gold Colour Thread, at Ten Shillings and Sixpence each

(Shrunck appears to mean water-resistant. Kersey is a very coarse cheap wool)

Waist Coat of Welsh Red plain unlin’d, with eighteen Brass Buttons, the holes stich’d with Gold Coloured Thread at Five Shillings and Sixpence each

(Welsh red refers to a type of wool flannel; cotton flannel does not appear until the 19th C)

Strip’d Ticken Waist Coats of proper lengths, to be one Yard in length at least, with Eighteen Black Buttons, the Holes Stitched with Black Thread lined with White linen and two White Linnen Pockets, at the Rate of Seven Shillings each

(Ticken/Ticking A strong material of linen, basket woven, and usually in stripes)

Red Kersey Breeches lin’d with Linnen, with three Leather Pockets, and thirteen white Tinn Buttons, the Button Holes stitched with white Thread, at the Rate of Five Shillings and Sixpence each (Kersey is a very coarse cheap wool)

Strip’d Shagg Breeches lin’d with Linnen, with three Leather Pockets, and fourteen white Tinn Buttons, the Button Holes stich’d with white Thread, at the Rate of Tenn Shillings and Sixpence each. (Shagg also called Duffel - a coarse woolen fabric with a thick tufted nap)

Strip’d Ticken Breeches of proper lengthes, lined with white linen, and two linen Pockets, with Sixteen Black Buttons, the Button Holes stich’d with Black Thread, at the rate of five Shillings each

(Ticken/Ticking A strong material of linen, basket woven, and usually in stripes)

Shirts of blew and white chequer’d Linnen, at the Rate of three Shillings and Threepence each.

Drawers of blew and white chequer’d Linnen, at the Rate of Two Shillings and Threepence each.

Leather Capps faced with Red Cotton, and lined with Black Linnen, at the Rate of One Shilling and twopence each

Small Leather Capps stich’d with white Thread, at the Rate of Eightpence each.

Grey Woollen Stockings at the Rate of One Shilling and Ninepence per Pair

Grey Woollen Gloves or Mittens at the Rate of Sixpence per pair

Double Sold Shoes, round Toes, at the Rate of Four Shillings per pair

Brass Buckles with Iron Tongues at the Rate of Three Pence per pair

These slops lists continued in much the same vein with minor variations until 1748. Since there was no order compelling Royal Navy sailors to buy slops, this could not be considered a uniform, but it amounted to such since these were the clothes most commonly available to them.

According to G.E. Manwaring's "The Dress of the British Seaman From the Revolution to the Peace of 1748" in The Mariner's Mirror, 1924 (which has these lists in detail as well as their original sources), this is the costume that British seamen were most often pictured wearing in period prints and paintings.

Grey jackets, red breeches or trousers, striped waistcoats and blue-and-white checkered shirts was the de facto uniform for this era.

The point about caps is interesting. British seamen were not issued hats until relatively late. They were known for their thrummed caps in the 16th and 17th centuries, as well as Monmouth caps. For some reason, knit caps disappear from the slops list for several decades. Despite this we know through other sources that knit hats and cocked hats were worn during this period, they just do not appear on the slop contracts during the 1690-1720 period.

It is not until the list of 1730 that you find the leather caps replaced with "Caps, woolen milled" and "Caps, yarn”. The "Caps, Woolen, milled yarn" is repeated in 1739, when for the first time "Hats" (with no other description) is added.

Manwaring believed that trousers were exclusive to British sailors in this era. He cites a Spanish report from the Pacific in which some seamen were recognized as British because they were wearing trousers.

The above information is not meant to coerce you into adopting the Admiralty Contracts as your sole guide or vision for building your pirate kit. It is meant, however, to provide examples as to what the common or average sailors clothing might have looked like.

Wow, that is amzing that the Pirate Soul Museum has an authentic GAOP Pirate flag!

Interesting that EVERY historical refrence source I have seen claims that there are no surving flags from the 1690-1720 period....

While there are few known existing pirate flags from the Golden Age of Piracy. One of those is owned by Pat Croce. I cannot recall which pirate the flag belonged to. It may well be Tew... Pat has many of his items.. but I saw this flag and it is in fact BLACK with the white skull and crossbones.

As far as I know, Foxe, Joshua Red, Hawkins, or others have never made the claim that pirate flags weren't black. And contrary to your claim, at lot of research has gone into this by members of this forum.

I think that the point that has been stressed concerning pirate flags is that MOST of what pirate/entertainers/re-enactors know about pirate flags is something that they have either heard frop "somebody else", saw in "Cut throat Island (or other Hollywood pirate fantasy) or from a document from the English Maritime Museum.

I find this post very interesting.

It doesn't say that black flags were not flown, it says that of all the documentable flags, only about half were black and almost a quarter are definately NOT black. Which is interesting because its one of the things that we modern pseudo historians take for granted that a pirate has to have a black flag.

Foxe has a great flag site where he puts forth his collected infromation. I reccomend it to anyone, but please visit it with and open mind and not as if someone is personally trying to discredit your heartfelt beliefs.

Anyway... back on topic. No wait... I guess we are on topic if we are defending Authenticity Nazis.

We have been asked by mods not to use the "N" word. I like "stitch counter" even less.

Maybe "real-ist" would be better, or how about "the old documentables"

But face it, the reality is that on this side of the pond, less than 10% care about accuracy. Those that do though are pretty fervent about it, and that is a good thing.

The danger is when you think that you know everything there is to know. Most of the good "documentables" are smart enough to know that it isn't possible, and I bet that Foxe is one and I know he is open to alternative ideas and will change his openion when evidence proves him wrong.

There is nothing wrong with asking for evidence. Specualation has its place but documentation is priceless in my book.

Oh don't worry about Hurricane, Foxe. He's just a category 1 and will blow over.

He just feels that HE discussed this issue back in 2003 ad nausem and that there is nothing to dicuss further....

Plus, he is an entertainer, that happens to choose piracy as the medium for making people happy.

Unlike, the UK, in the states, a lot of people feel that you cannot effectively entertain the public while wearing authentic clothing....

I have pulled some of the old topics from obsucrity so that the hundreds of members that have joined since 2003 can get in on the discussion

If you look THIS thread was started in 08/2003.

Personally, I feel that the authenticity of GAOP clothing should be an on going debate/discussion. How else do you learn anything new?

I for one, never knew about the Admiralty Contracts till David R brought them up at the PirateBrethren site.

GOF

There has been some discussion on the PirateBrethren site ( a Yahoo group dedicated to authentically portraying GAOP) about some weapons that were used.

Here is some cut and paste

Q>

Does anyone know the difference in the use of the French fusil Type

C and the Tulle fusil de Chasse?

The Type C was in use in the late 1600's into the 1700's. The Tulle

was also in use in the early 1700's. Both were offered as trade

guns in the Americas.

D Rickman's reply

A>

I have a book called "The Fusil de Tulle in New France, 1691 - 1741"

by Russel Bouchard (Alexandria Bay, NY and Bloomfield, Ontario,

Museum Restoration Service, Historical Rams Series, No. 36, 1998).

It is just a small pamphlet, but goes into the question pretty

thoroughly. The author states that "In general, the Tulle hunting

musket [fusil de chasse] was different from the military musket

because of its lighter and hence less robust construction, and it

was 28 balls to the pound caliber. The brass or iron mountings were

proportional to the length, and the style of the lock was hardly

different from the infantry musket. As a general rule, it was

carefully made." The lighter weight seems to have made them popular

and by 1695 they were issued to the French marines (Compagnies

Franche de la Marine). Unfortunately, the earliest model of a fusil

de chasse this book shows is dated 1720, but it is not the marine

model. The earliest complete fusil de chasse of this sort dates from

1729, and is illustrated. I couldn't find anything about the "Type

C" fusil; was it manufactured by Tulle? If not, it wouldn't be in

this book of mine.

<<<HERE IS THE PART RELATING TO YOUR QUESTION>>>

But there is an intersting section in this book on the "fusil de

filibustier" or "boucanier." Yes, that is a Bucaneer Musket. It

seems that these were pretty common in the French naval service and

with civilians, especially in Louisiana and the Caribbean. It was

based on the type of musket made popular by the Boucaniers, and

appears in the famous print of one standing with his musket. By the

last decades of the 17th century, the fusil de boucanier was

becoming the most common weapon in the French colonies for both

military and civilian use. Every male civilian in the colonies was

obliged to own a musket from the Royal stores, and every merchant

ship had to have a certain number of guns on board. The buccaneer

musket was not specified, but the regulation stated that the guns

had to have barrels 4 1/2 feet long, and that amounted to the same

thing. In the French West Indies, they became the standard militia

arm in 1695. In 1710, every fishing vessel in Newfoundland was

issued two Buccaneer Muskets and every Basque ship that traded with

Newfoundland received the same "because they are lacking adequate

weapons, [and] could not resist pirate attacks." In 1710, Santo

Domingo, (now Haiti) ordered that every head of household have one

Buccaneer Musket, one "gargousier" (cartridge pouch),

one "manchette" (machete), or sabre, and a bayonet for each ten

Negroes they owned, all placed on a rack in their hall or room.

Finally, in the second quarter of the 18th century, the Buccaneer

Musket was the standard arm aboard each navy ship.

So, what is a Buccaneer Musket? The characteristic features are that

it was long - the barrel averaging 52 inches (with 60 inches the

maximum and 48 inches the minimum). The butt end of the stock was

shaped in reverse to most muskets. It was concave on the top and

convex below. That is what is shown in the famous buccaneer print as

well. Unfortunately, the earliest model the book shows is the 1729

Tulle Buccaneer Gun. Perhaps there are other examples out there. It

seems likely that with so many of these once around, some must have

survived. And equally, a good many must have fallen into the hands

of pirates. I'll try and post a scan of the Buccaneer gun soon.

Hope that this is a start?

I think that Foxe posted a picture of some Buccaneers frim 1705. A little late but Buccaneers none the less.

GoF