Patrick Hand Posted December 28, 2005 Author Share Posted December 28, 2005 Hurrricane... and One was "84" wow... I am to drunk right now to argue nicly... but what I find interesting.... a bunch of hunters,,, kinda tresspassing.... and the Spanish tried to kill them all of as heritics....... put them outta work.. and Morgain comes along... "hey... you ever been to Panama....." Dang... sounds like fun ter me...... Steinbecks... "Cup of Gold" was kinda fun.... and what I can find.... I figure the whole Pannama exoodition was a bunch crap..... But dang they did it... and what were the Spanish thinking... let loose a herd of cows at profesional,,, and hungry hunters........(I also think Morgan took a larger share of the loot... but that is debatible...) Awh heck.... ter drunk to type anymore...... back at ye latter......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Jim Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 That picture that I posted was pyrated from a website The Hong Kong Society of Wargamers and is not attributed on that web site. My occupational hazard bein' my occupation's just not around... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monsignor Fitzwell Posted December 28, 2005 Share Posted December 28, 2005 Where ever it came from, It is a good find Captain of the Ship Pax Decimus Currently raiding with the Voyage of Reprizal in Caribbean waters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monterey Jack Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Patrick~ In the drawing its showing leggings on the buccaneer, What, in your opinion would they be made of? Tarred canvas, wool, leather? If leather, I'm curious about what other methods of tanning were available to a buccaneer other than brain-tanning. I work with leather on a daily basis and brain-tanned, even the commercial stuff is too expensive. I ask because I'm about to make mine and I don't want to have to use brain-tanned if i can help it. Monterey Jack "yes I am a pirate 200 years too late, the cannons don't thunder, there's nothin to plunder, I'm an over-40 victim of fate, arrivin too late.........." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Hand Posted January 20, 2006 Author Share Posted January 20, 2006 The ones that I have right now are suede (yah not very period but I had it...) but they are too heavy, they stay "up", but in Summer they do get hot....I'm thinking pig skin or maybe goat, cow is to heavy.... I don't think there were many deer in the Carribean... So they are another of the things that I have to work on..... On tanning, I'm trying to figure this out myself.... I'm not sure about brain tanning, I know the Indains did it, but not sure if Europeans would do it (well in the Carribean at least...) but vegetable tanning dosen't seem likely for Buccaneers either...... and the descriptions of them wearing "trousers and boots of untreated hide" just dosen't sound right..... thats rawhide.... (I've "flexed" a chunk of deerskin rawhide to see if it would "loosen up", but it still stays too stiff........) I'm thinking of going with pigskin... it's just my best guess...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monterey Jack Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 The ones that I have right now are suede (yah not very period but I had it...) but they are too heavy, they stay "up", but in Summer they do get hot....I'm thinking pig skin or maybe goat, cow is to heavy.... I don't think there were many deer in the Carribean... So they are another of the things that I have to work on.....On tanning, I'm trying to figure this out myself.... I'm not sure about brain tanning, I know the Indains did it, but not sure if Europeans would do it (well in the Carribean at least...) but vegetable tanning dosen't seem likely for Buccaneers either...... and the descriptions of them wearing "trousers and boots of untreated hide" just dosen't sound right..... thats rawhide.... (I've "flexed" a chunk of deerskin rawhide to see if it would "loosen up", but it still stays too stiff........) I'm thinking of going with pigskin... it's just my best guess...... The ones I have for my mountain gear are moose, and will probably be too heavy as you said; that, and how many moose (meese?) will you find on Hispaniola? I've been looking into the Arrawak culture, but so far nothing on tanning. I figure the buccs would adopt the locals customs and do it the way they do. Guess I'll have to opt for goat fer now, and just keep it looking as "naturally" tanned as possible. Pig is far more likely though. I'd be happy to let you know what I find. Seesm we're both on the same course here! Monterey Jack "yes I am a pirate 200 years too late, the cannons don't thunder, there's nothin to plunder, I'm an over-40 victim of fate, arrivin too late.........." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasNdanger Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Just want to bump this up so that I can take a look at it during the week when I'm on a faster computer...gah, 9 pages....I hope there aren't too many novels in there!! I'll see what I can find out about Arrawak tanning - I have a good collection of books on the native peoples of the New World - but I think the island cultures aren't very well documented. Looking forward to reading through this thread! das http://www.ajmeerwald.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshuaRed Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 If you are interested in buccaneering the best thing you can do for yourself is procure the collected works of William Dampier...I got my set through abebooks.com. He has reams of worthwhile info on his firsthand experiences from his days with the buccaneers. TONS of stuff about the various indigenous peoples, the "privateers" (what they called themselves), the colonies, the Spanish, the weather, the food, how to cook food, what makes you sick, what to take when you get sick, which ports to sack, which ones to avoid, what the annual crop yield is for X Spanish Town, which wood is good for ship repair, how to cross the Isthmus of Darien, and just about everything else you'd ever want to know about life then. You'll notice the distinct LACK of discussion on "pirate culture"....chiefly because there was none as we think of it, and also because any personality/fashion traits we'd be interested in were so commonplace then that they needed no description. It would be like describing a McDonald's in Iowa to someone in Virginia. No point - McDonalds are mostly the same with very little to distinguish one from another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman of Fortune Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 I vote Joshua Red for senior class president! GoF Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshuaRed Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Poleeticks? No thanks man! I'm more of an occasional kibitzer! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monterey Jack Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 I'll see what I can find out about Arrawak tanning - I have a good collection of books on the native peoples of the New World - but I think the island cultures aren't very well documented. Looking forward to reading through this thread! das I've about exhausted my searches for Arrawak tanning; if you find anything I'll buy you a round at the virtual pub! On the lighter side, I wore my bucc kit (still as always a work in progress) to the local Heritage Faire over the weekend. Aaside from one Russian sailor from the 1800s I was the only mariner in a sea of longhunters , voyageurs and scouts. The kit was very well recieved, in spite of a few folk yelling "arrrgh matey!" from across the room. Just jealous they didn't think of it I suppose. I talked to afew more voyageurs about my suppositions that aside from locale, many items from the voyaguer/longhunter culture could easily interchange with the buccs. Most were in agreement, but I catch continual grief from one muzzleloader that is very very protective of his hobby and will cut me no slack. He is a perfect texbook colonial re enactor and the idea that he'd have to share his artifacts with a scallywag realllly upsets him. Bummer is, we're in the same muzzleloading group , though I have more allies than he does among his own people. If I get enough support, there may be a new bucc group in the pacific northwest. Monterey Jack "yes I am a pirate 200 years too late, the cannons don't thunder, there's nothin to plunder, I'm an over-40 victim of fate, arrivin too late.........." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Bo of the WTF co. Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Aye mate, it's them kinds that's driven me here! :) Been through the whole bit from CW, Mount. man, Rev War, longhunter, F&I, etc. over the past twenty years. Seems them "stuffies" is always throwin poop in th' soup! Fight on mate... Capt. Bo has yer back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman of Fortune Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 but I catch continual grief from one muzzleloader that is very very protective of his hobby and will cut me no slack. He is a perfect texbook colonial re enactor and the idea that he'd have to share his artifacts with a scallywag realllly upsets him Could you elaborate a bit? Do you mean he is critical of your work in progress kit, or that he doesn't like buccaneers infringing on his turf or ??? I think that everyone's kit is "a kit in progress" and I don't fault folks for trying and being at a different spot along the route/way to being correct. Its the ones that aren't even trying that get my goat! GoF Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monterey Jack Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 but I catch continual grief from one muzzleloader that is very very protective of his hobby and will cut me no slack. He is a perfect texbook colonial re enactor and the idea that he'd have to share his artifacts with a scallywag realllly upsets him Could you elaborate a bit? Do you mean he is critical of your work in progress kit, or that he doesn't like buccaneers infringing on his turf or ??? I think that everyone's kit is "a kit in progress" and I don't fault folks for trying and being at a different spot along the route/way to being correct. Its the ones that aren't even trying that get my goat! GoF I mentioned to him that in trying to create a crossover kit, with items that I could use for both caribbean buccaneer and voyageur / longhunter I found many similarities (previously discussed here last year) bewteen the two. When presented with the findings he completely overlooked the similarituies and said anything comparing buccs to colonial civilians was a long shot at best. I even went so far as to give him dates of ships frequenting both Caribbean and East Coast American and even Canadian ports, diseases brought up to Boston from Martinique, weapons used by both French and English in both areas...even survival techniques, shelters and cooking methods. He wouldn't budge. He takes everything straight from historical documents (admirable) but if it ain't written it didn't happen as far as he's concerned, while I tend to build upon what was written, based on the people, the situations and the materials at hand at the time. I've come right out and agreed that the cultures are not the same, but than items of clothing, weapons, utinsels, etc., could easily in many cases be used in both cutlures. He ain't havin it in his little textbook world. Monterey Jack "yes I am a pirate 200 years too late, the cannons don't thunder, there's nothin to plunder, I'm an over-40 victim of fate, arrivin too late.........." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monterey Jack Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Aye mate, it's them kinds that's driven me here! :) Been through the whole bit from CW, Mount. man, Rev War, longhunter, F&I, etc. over the past twenty years. Seems them "stuffies" is always throwin poop in th' soup! Fight on mate... Capt. Bo has yer back! Thank'ee Cap'n! I was completely taken by surprise by this guy. Everyone else in the group either shrugged and said, "sure, sounds about right" or were real supportive. To most of them its all muzzleloading so who cares? I do enjoy the more laid-back atmosphere o this forum, though. Just wish there were more of ye in the Pacific Northwest! Monterey Jack "yes I am a pirate 200 years too late, the cannons don't thunder, there's nothin to plunder, I'm an over-40 victim of fate, arrivin too late.........." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Bo of the WTF co. Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Yes, there's far too many that are only in it to dress up for each other and "peacock" for the publik. I myself, beleive in makin the best effort, and improving anywhere ye be able, and as is true for many, AS yer able. I've seen far too many a newcomer leave offended by the over burdening scrutiny of them blasted "peacocks", and have come close to bloodyin' the fine Scottish smallsword that me missus an th' young'uns allowed me fer Fathers Day last. Tis' better to help someone along their way than to send them away says I! We all started with nothing at some point, and when we leave this life, we should at least take a bit of comfort in knowin we tried ta send along the next crew with a better lot than the one we got... ahh, hellfire! There ye went and got me on the rum keg preachin thin agin! Not yer fault mate...my weakness ta be certain. Capt. Bo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasNdanger Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 I've been looking into the Arrawak culture, but so far nothing on tanning. I figure the buccs would adopt the locals customs and do it the way they do. I found this mention in an article on South America, but seems these trees are located throughout the Caribbean (keep in mind that most of this info is regarding current production, but it's a good place to start): "Mangrove bark - The bark of the red mangrove, commonly used for tanning leather, is harvested by Amerindians around the Waini River mouth. Entire trees are cut down and skinned, the bark is sliced into manageable pieces and sold to middlemen in Mabaruma. The produce is shipped with the fortnightly ferry to the capital, where the actual leather production takes place in small tanneries." I'm thinking that this is a start. If they are still using red mangrove for tanning, then it's likely what's been used for hundreds of years in the region, including the Caribbean where it seems plentiful. Now...to use 'red mangrove tanning' as search keywords...let's see what else I can find... "Tannins extracted from the bark and leaves have been used in tanning hides. The tannins are so abundant that they naturally stain the water a rust brown near large groves of the species." "To obtain the bark, the whole tree is cut, left to wither for a few days and then beaten with a stick until the bark slabs come loose. The bark is cut in pieces of ca. 40 x 10 cm. The pieces, still moist, are ground into a dark red powder and mixed with salts in the tanning baths for the cow hides. Mangrove has a tannin content of 16-25%, much higher than other tree species... Leather tanned with this bark has good wearing qualities, although the reddish brown colour compares unfavourably with imported leather." "From the [modern] tanners estimations, about 12.5 lbs of bark is used to tan each cow hide, with the same amount tanning two sheep hides." das http://www.ajmeerwald.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasNdanger Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 I think this might be of help, though done in modern times, the process sounds as if it dates back a while: "The Lazzari family of Cayman Brac had a tanning and leather goods business that lasted from the first years of the 20th century until the early 1960s. Tanning was a complex and time-consuming process, involving lengthy soaks in vats containing various substances. The process began with salting the hides, which were then soaked in seawater for a few hours. This was followed by a soaking in fresh water to soak the seawater out. Then the hides had t o be soaked for 15 days in a lime-and-water solution to extract the hair. Lime was made by burning limestone pan shoals, or "sea stones", and crushing them up into powder. (This same material, mixed with only a little water, was used as a mortar called "white lime".) Soaking 6 hides required 100 gallons of water and 4 gallons of lime. The next soaking was with acid, to extract the lime, and finally the hides had to be soaked in alum to extract the acid. Only now were they ready for the actual tanning process to begin. The tanning bark used in the Cayman Islands was mangrove. The bark, up to 2 inches thick, was crushed in a mortar with a 6-foot pestle and then soaked until the juice was extracted. Then the hides were soaked in the liquid-cowhides for 3 months, goat and calf hides for a shorter period. Once the mangrove juice had penetrated right through the hide, both tanning and dyeing it, the hide had to be hung to dry in the shade and then painted with linseed oil. Finally, the leather was ready to be made into shoes. Only shoes were made on the Brac, except for one Jamaican man who made handbags and covers for wooden cricket balls. The Lazzaris also exported leather to Jamaica and Grand Cayman, selling it for 2 to 8 shillings a pound." Salt water soaking, the mangrove tannin, and such all sound about right for how the native peoples tanned hides. Not sure what source for alum they would have had, or perhaps they used something else in substitute...just not sure what since I don't know all the details of leather tanning. das http://www.ajmeerwald.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monterey Jack Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Nice work, das!!! Can you give me the source for this quote? Likely the alum and lime was imported,(and the linseed oil?) but the manzanita bark-tanning makes perfect sense for the locals. I think we're a step closer to native tanning with this article. I suppose the next step would be looking at similar chemicals that produce the same effect as the lime and alum.....aside from sitting down with a raw hide and a sharp knife and scraping the fat and hair off by hand. I've done that and I don't wanna have to do it again to make caribbean-tanned leather. Curious that they don't mention the method of breaking the hide; stretching it or rolling it to make it loose and pliable for the bags. Still, we're a step closer! Well done! Monterey Jack "yes I am a pirate 200 years too late, the cannons don't thunder, there's nothin to plunder, I'm an over-40 victim of fate, arrivin too late.........." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasNdanger Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 The source for the last one is http://www.caymannetnews.com/Archive/Archi...industries.html As far as the first post of information, that all came from various source documents about the economic and environmental impact of mangrove harvest (amongst other things) in Guyana. I just googled 'red mangrove tanning'...there are several similar documents that I gleaned info from, like this one - http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:Oyh78...yser8b/HB2d.pdf das http://www.ajmeerwald.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasNdanger Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 This does NOT pertain to the Caribbean, but it's an ancient method of tanning: "Tanners would take an animal skin and soak it in water. Then they would pound and scour the skin to remove flesh and fat. Next, either they soaked the skin in urine to loosen hair fibers or they let the skin putrefy for several months, after which they dipped the skin in a salt solution. After the hair fibers were loosened, the tanners would scrape them off with a knife. Once the hair was removed, tanners would bate the material by pounding dung into the skin or soaking the skin in a solution of animal brains. They would also take cedar oil, alum, or tannin and stretch the skin as it lost moisture and absorbed the tanning agent." I have several Indian scrappers used for hides, and I fear that was probably what was done in the Caribbean, too. The use of urine seems logical, too, since I know it was used in other native American processes. Back to searching! das http://www.ajmeerwald.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monterey Jack Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 This does NOT pertain to the Caribbean, but it's an ancient method of tanning: "Tanners would take an animal skin and soak it in water. Then they would pound and scour the skin to remove flesh and fat. Next, either they soaked the skin in urine to loosen hair fibers or they let the skin putrefy for several months, after which they dipped the skin in a salt solution. After the hair fibers were loosened, the tanners would scrape them off with a knife. I think that going back to a certain point a lot of primitive techniques are going to be similar; what we need to look for caribbean-wise are the local equivalents for the tanning chemicals that were, by the 1800s being imported. I'm figuring bark-tanning and smoke-tanning as being the most likely methods; now aside from Manzanita what else would they use by way of wood? Dampier mentions that the buccaneers cut and sold something called logwood, but I don't know the various uses for it. I think we're onto something here.... Monterey Jack "yes I am a pirate 200 years too late, the cannons don't thunder, there's nothin to plunder, I'm an over-40 victim of fate, arrivin too late.........." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasNdanger Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 I've seen a lot of mention of 'logwood' - "Meanwhile, the Spanish had discovered another leguminous tree in Yucatan with a deep red heartwood very similar to brazilwood. The tree became known as logwood (Haematoxylum campechianum), and by the late 1500s Spanish ships were exporting large cargoes of the valuable heartwood from the Yucatan coast. At this time it was common practice for British privateers to attack and destroy the Spanish vessels. In his book British Honduras (1883), A. R. Gibbs describes one such privateer, a Captain James, who discovered that the debarked heartwood sold in England for the enormous price of one hundred pounds sterling per ton. English political economist Sir William Petty estimated that the average value of merchandise a ship of the 1600s could carry in a year was 1000 to 1500 pounds sterling. A single load of 50 tons of logwood was worth more than an entire year's cargo of other merchandise!" As far as the tanning process goes - I have contacted a tribal group that includes the Taino (Arawak) peoples, and am waiting for a response. The gentleman I first talked to said that they did not do a lot of leather tanning, since their clothes were mostly woven cotten and other plant goods, and dwellings also made of plant products. Only sandals (which he said were gained through trade) and drumheads were of leather. But he had never been confronted with this question, so he referred me to the tribal group that I just contacted. If they get back to me, I'll let you know!! das http://www.ajmeerwald.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Bo of the WTF co. Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Don't rule out brain tanning, as all native culture's seemed to know that every animal has enough brain matter to tan its own hide. My Missus does our deer hides here in the backyard every deer season by the plains and eastern woodland brain/smoke tanning method. It takes alot of time and physical effort, but the results are worth it. Capt. Bo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monterey Jack Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 I found the import/export info as well, though not in as great a detail. Still, many of the sources expound on how valuable it was without saying what they were using it for, which is irritating at best. My inquiries with Arawak tribal reps went unanswered, so with luck they'll respond to your posts. I may just have asked the wrong questions or they may be very protective of their tribal history. It'll be interesting to see what they send you. Monterey Jack "yes I am a pirate 200 years too late, the cannons don't thunder, there's nothin to plunder, I'm an over-40 victim of fate, arrivin too late.........." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now