Barmy John Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 It looks to me like the seated man with the kerchief has an extra waistcoat too... Any ideas about these folks wearing TWO waistcoats? Perhaps wearing a short sleeved coat on top would provide protection for the clothes (like an apron?) or the body (warmth?) and leave the arms less encumbered for work? Seems a bit odd though... I suppose removable coat sleeves had dissapeared by the mid/late 17th century...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 Yeah, I can't think of any removable sleeves after the mid-17th century. But wearing two waistcoats is not that unusual. We think of waistcoats as "vests" -- you wear one under your jacket. But the origin of the waistcoat was as an undergarment worn for extra warmth, often not even seen. A number of late 17th century bog bodies were found wearing multiple jackets, some of which are termed "shirts" even though they're made out of wool and more closely resemble waistcoats than shirts. Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman of Fortune Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 Once again we have to change our point of refrence... we (including myself) often look at 17th/18th century things with 21st century eyes and ideas We think of waistcoats as "vests" -- you wear one under your jacket. But the origin of the waistcoat was as an undergarment worn for extra warmth Good point Kass! Greg Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 Greg, John... I think you just gave me an idea for my next article -- "Seeing through 18th century eyes" Thanks guys! Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 It's Willem van Mieris, 1709 Yeah... but is it from a private collection? I have searched for it to get a look at it if its in color, but haven't been able to find it... anyone got a link? Greg Good question Greg... it's gotta be in color, and it must be really sweet if The Peep Show is any indication! Does anyone know the date for the picture in the below link "The Peep Show"? The guy standing to the right hand side of the image grey jacket... There are some elements depicted in that waistcoat that are relevant to a question I had posed a short while ago in another forum. If the image is dated to the GAoP it could be of some help to me to get a possible answer to my question. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barmy John Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 Title: The Peepshow Year: 1718 Artist: Willem van Mieris Technique: Oil on panel Dimensions: 57,1 x 48,2 cm Object number: SK-A-4941 Rijksmuseum Amsterdam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Midnight Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 I know we tend to use this painting a great deal for costume reference, but I would just like for you all to take a close look at some of the details, such as the weave of the basket lying on the floor, and the scales of the fish on the platter...outstanding! The man was a magnificent artist! "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 Yes, the detail in that painting is fantabulous! I am most interested in the buttin holes on the grey waistcoat... I am currently making a sleeved waistcoat for myself (in fact I am just hemming the edges and then I have only the buttons and buttonholes left to do), anyway I digress.... The buttonholes seem incredibly long/wide/large for the size of the buttons. The question I raised on the other forum, and will raise again here, (in a slightly differently worded manner), do you think these are just very wide buttonholes? Or do you think those may be normal sized buttonholes with extra fake buttonhole stitching to give the buttons an intentialy wider look? I'd love to hear any thoughts, idea or pet theories, or hard facts if anyone has any with regards to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 Yes they could be extra long for decoration BUT cut to fit the button.... like this example (circa 1750-1760s). and here's an example of false buttonholes circa 1680s From Historical Fashion in Detail, The 17th and 18th Centuries, by Avril Hart & Susan North... a must book for all you sewers that want to get it right... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barmy John Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 As far as I am aware, lower class and work clothing generally had buttonholes sized to accomodate the buttons, though with thick fabrics and heavy buttons, holes may be slightly larger as needed to to allow easier fastening and unfastening. Buttonhole stitching was extended as decoration on many fancier garments including the use of completely false buttonholes, but I think this would be unusual on more common clothes. That having been said, those buttonholes sure look big... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 Hard to say from the painting but I have done over 1000 hand made buttonholes and the heavier the fabric does not constitute the longer the buttonhole... maybe an extra 1/8 to 1/4" but no more than that to accomodate for the thickness of wool etc. Just a thought "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barmy John Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 Cap. Sterling, I edited my post after my earlier reply. Yes, I think that you are right about the heavy fabric & buttons not being adequate explanation for the large buttonholes shown in the painting. The worked areas do seem too big for that to be the reason. I had remembered them being somewhat smaller. I am unable to tell from the painting whether all or only part of the buttonholes are opened however... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTom Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 A buttonhole that has an opening much wider than its button will not stay buttoned. The fabric flexes with the movements of the wearer, the buttonhope gapes, and the button falls right out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 I hugely appreciate all the feedback, other samples posted and thoughts on this, it has helped. Does anyone have any other examples of artwork or other resources that may continue to substantiate the use of elongated button-holes that are only partly functional and partly decorative? Particularily in period examples, especially on a common mans waistcoat or jacket. I just want to try and not make the "uncommon into common" by making my buttonholes in this fashion if the waistcoat depicted in the "Peep Show" is a one off. Although I may do the buttonholes in this fashion as a reproduction of this sample even though that was not where I was originally going with this garment. This line of thinking for me was started by another post-GAoP sample that tuned out tobe something other than what I thought it was, but now that I am seeing actual examples of what I was previously mistook, my interest in this has been renewed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 just a few to show different buttonhole styles on original garments... detail elongated false buttonholes for cuff of 1720s coat regular buttonholes waistcoat 1705 The pattern I am seeing, which isn't saying much due to the sources (paintings, sketches, etc.) aren't very clear and tis hard to tell exactly if the buttonholes are indeed much larger than the buttons, is that late 17th century, the buttonholes fit the buttons usually... by the turn of the century progressing into the later end of the GAoP, there can be the elongated buttonholes...BUT again, this shows maybe what a captain, merchant, civie might wear not what your common sailor/seaman might have... from the few pictures I have of the Town Criers of London, I am seeing very little to confirm either way on the poorer class figures... but again, these aren't sailors... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barmy John Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 Sterling, your photos are great. I think using photos of period garments is the way to go. Information gleaned from paintings can be difficult to accurately decipher without knowledge of the garments themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 A buttonhole that has an opening much wider than its button will not stay buttoned. The fabric flexes with the movements of the wearer, the buttonhope gapes, and the button falls right out. Pretty much, that's why you only cut open what you need, just embroider more beyond... remember some buttonholes were laced as well... although one would think not too many common seamen had laced buttonholes... Did you try Foxe's site with the mariners pictures? circa 1720 Bernard Picart "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 Sterling, your photos are great. I think using photos of period garments is the way to go. Information gleaned from paintings can be difficult to accurately decipher without knowledge of the garments themselves. Thank you, I wish I could say I had tons more, but.... sigh... and some just aren't going to scan and show up here well enough to go through all that bother... but again... these aren't sailors' slops clothing... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 Thanks for adding the additional images Capt. Sterling! I did dig up my bookmark of Foxe's images and went through them, most of the images are either too small or do not show the neccessary detail to prove or disprove the commonality of the elongated buttonholes. Some of the images almost look like they support it, others the opposite... I think I'll make the safe judgement call, make my waistcoat simpler, and hope that some more images will turn up at some point to give further credence to the commonality (or lack therof) of this type of buttonhole treatment on common mans and/or slop contract clothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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