CrazyCholeBlack Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 I've been reading about the slop contract (1706) but have a few quiestons. Hopefully the experts here will have the answers. What is the difference between breeches & drawers? A few pieces specify "leather pockets". That's the inside portion right? Where do 16 buttons go on a pair of breeches? That just seem like a lot. I think that's all of my questions for now. I'm sure I'll have more later. Thanks for the help. "If part of the goods be plundered by a pirate the proprietor or shipmaster is not entitled to any contribution." An introduction to merchandize, Robert Hamilton, 1777Slightly Obsessed, an 18th Century reenacting blog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 Drawers are underwear, breeches are outerwear. Yup, the leather pockets are the inside bit. The exact placement of buttons is an interesting question (and one which has been debated here). Annoyingly the ASC specs don't give enough detail so we have to speculate. I suspect that a lot of the buttons on the breeches were down the fly and some were on the pockets, plus the rest at the knees, but there's no cut and dry answer to this one. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 That's my guess on the buttons too, Foxe. You can easily put 5 or 6 on each leg closure and then there are only 4-6 left for the fly. It's really not that many once you start dividing them up, Chole. Another difference between breeches and drawers is that drawers are specified in only blue checkered linen while breeches can be red kersey, striped shag or striped ticken. Also drawers do not have any specs for buttons while breeches always do. In later Slop Contracts, they are specified with ties at the waist and knees. This would preclude a need for buttons. Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCholeBlack Posted September 28, 2006 Author Share Posted September 28, 2006 ah, I wasn't thinking of buttons up the legs openings, just at the knee. that would use quite a few up. I figured drawers ment underwear. Always better to ask though. Anyone know how similar they were to the braies worn in the medieval period? Obviously we're not tieing chauses to them, but the drawstring waist is similar. Now about the ticking stripe. Since the color of the waistcoat isn't specified is it safe to say any (period) color stripe was used. When ever I hear "ticking" I instantly think of the blue pillow case covering stuff but that's much much later of course. Now, where the waistcoats for these regular sailors sleeved? I don't remember seeing any images with sleeved waistcoats. Again better to ask those who've been doing this longer. I have to say I love being able to ask these questions. Everyone around me was burned out on "costume history speculation" years ago. "If part of the goods be plundered by a pirate the proprietor or shipmaster is not entitled to any contribution." An introduction to merchandize, Robert Hamilton, 1777Slightly Obsessed, an 18th Century reenacting blog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 I doubt they would resemble medieval braies. In later slop contracts, the length and width of the drawers are given and they are very similar to the length and width of the breeches. Extant drawers from later in the century are almost identical to breeches except have fewer or no buttons. So if you want to make drawers, Chole, just make breeches with ties instead of buttons. Have you seen Foxe's period pictures site, Chole? There are alot of pictures of striped garments on there and not all of them are blue. I think of the later stuff when I hear "ticken" too, but apparently it was not restricted in colour this early. Waistcoats are a funny thing. The later Slop Contracts specify enough fabric from them that they would have had to have sleeves to require that much. But we also see sleeveless waistcoats in the pictorial record. It's my opinion that both were common. You're probably not seeing sleeved waistcoats because what they would call a waistcoat, we might call a jacket. After all, what is the real difference? Chole, I don't think I will EVER get burned out on costume history speculation. So you just keep asking! Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Hand Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 You're probably not seeing sleeved waistcoats because what they would call a waistcoat, we might call a jacket. I just thought of something !!!!! At Ojai, it was way to hot to wear my wool jacket, so I wore my waistcoat and shirt (well and trousers etc...) Going around half dressed (Pyrate.... (sorry Kass) ) I have some more ticking, maybe I'll make a sleeved waistcoat for when it's to hot to wear my coat....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 There's been some debate about waistcoats too and the honest answer is that we don't know. If you made a waistcoat within the detail parameters given by the specs nobody could say it was wrong - which is not to say that it's right. I can think of two pictures which definitely show seamen in sleeved waistcoats, including this one: Since this shows two identical waistcoats which fit the known ASC specs I have postulated that they may in fact be the slop contract waistcoats we've been discussing. If that is the case then we can answer two questions: yes they had sleeves, and no they weren't white and blue, they were tan and brown. Of course, they may not be ASC spec waistcoats, it may just be coincidence. However, the fact that they are identical does suggest a common source for the garments, which in turn suggests the possibility of the slop chest. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 Here's the pic of the dutch captain... notice he has his breeches unbuttoned and the striped drawers are visible underneath. And yeah, I'm kicking myself for not writing down the name of the book nor the artist. So unlike me to forget to get that info. My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 It's Willem van Mieris, 1709. :) Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 D'oh! I knew that. He also did the seated hurdy-gurdy player! (which I won't post, since he has nothing to do with slops contracts.) My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 And the Brothel Scene upon which our new business card photo is based. {Which, being not as lawful as Blackjohn, I will post:} Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman of Fortune Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 It's Willem van Mieris, 1709 Yeah... but is it from a private collection? I have searched for it to get a look at it if its in color, but haven't been able to find it... anyone got a link? Greg Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 At Ojai, it was way to hot to wear my wool jacket, so I wore my waistcoat and shirt (well and trousers etc...) Going around half dressed (Pyrate.... (sorry Kass)Â ) Colour me scandalized, Pat! Um... Haven't you seen the pictures of me at Maryland last weekend? I have some more ticking, maybe I'll make a sleeved waistcoat for when it's to hot to wear my coat....... Do it, man! Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeky Actress Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 And the Brothel Scene upon which our new business card photo is based.{Which, being not as lawful as Blackjohn, I will post:} Lovely Shot of you and the 'Prof." Empress! Cute bows to boot! Member of "The Forsaken" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 Silly Cheeks! That's not me. That's Apprentice #1. {I'm almost a foot taller than her.} Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 It's Willem van Mieris, 1709 Yeah... but is it from a private collection? I have searched for it to get a look at it if its in color, but haven't been able to find it... anyone got a link? Greg Good question Greg... it's gotta be in color, and it must be really sweet if The Peep Show is any indication! My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeky Actress Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 Silly Cheeks! That's not me. That's Apprentice #1. {I'm almost a foot taller than her.} (Doing a double take) - Sorry Empress...seeing that I haven't met you face to face...it threw me.... (tsk..tsk...tsk...Really, Kass...and you let your 'Bob' fiddle with the help?!) Member of "The Forsaken" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 Liz and I have very similar colouring, actually. Right about now, you might want to be asking yourself where I was while all this "fiddling" was going on. Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman of Fortune Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 Yeah peep show is a favorite of mine as well... I would love to see it in person. All that freakin detail is overwhelming! I love the jug with cap and the broken pipe front center bottom.... Greg Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 You really just can't beat Dutch genre art. The stuff in the periphery is almost as interesting as the subject of the painting! Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 And I was just wondering the other day about period tobacco tins! Thanks John. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ransom Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 You really just can't beat Dutch genre art. The stuff in the periphery is almost as interesting as the subject of the painting! I like cats, so I love the one peeking out from under the table cloth in the first painting. ...schooners, islands, and maroons and buccaneers and buried gold... You can do everything right, strictly according to procedure, on the ocean, and it'll still kill you. But if you're a good navigator, a least you'll know where you were when you died.......From The Ship Killer by Justin Scott. "Well, that's just maddeningly unhelpful."....Captain Jack Sparrow Found in the Ruins — Unique Jewelry Found in the Ruins — Personal Blog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCholeBlack Posted September 28, 2006 Author Share Posted September 28, 2006 I have mentioned today how much I love every one of you? Thank you for pointing out those striped drawers Black John. I would have missed that detail for sure. Mr. Hand, that is a good point about the heat. I'm also gratified to hear that your ticken waistcoat is sleeveless. It's the pictures of your garb from the other thread that's been a big inspiration when thinking about my own kit. "If part of the goods be plundered by a pirate the proprietor or shipmaster is not entitled to any contribution." An introduction to merchandize, Robert Hamilton, 1777Slightly Obsessed, an 18th Century reenacting blog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barmy John Posted December 21, 2006 Share Posted December 21, 2006 Since this shows two identical waistcoats which fit the known ASC specs I have postulated that they may in fact be the slop contract waistcoats we've been discussing. Hey Foxe, Is it my imagination or does the man standing on the left holding the cup and hand on the book appear to be wearing a long sleeved "ticken" waistcoat with another sleeveless waistcoat over it...? Am I seeing that correctly? Isn't that more striped fabric visible hanging from beneath the sleeveless coat? Curious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted December 21, 2006 Share Posted December 21, 2006 You're not seeing it wrong, John. That's exactly what I see, and I've seen a couple different versions of this picture. :) Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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