The Boots We Wear (On Bucket Boots)

[Gentleman of Fortune]

The Pictures

1)

What is your proof that these are from the shipwreck Batavia? We have discussed this before and your reply seems to be that "they were e-mailed to me from somone in the Netherlands." Batavia is a city in the Netherlands and also the name of a ship that was wrecked in the 1629.

HERE ARE SOME LINKS TO BATAVIA WRECK

Overview

There online database for artifacts recovered.

Batavia Artifact Database

They have links to other wrecks with recovered artifacts and one is listed as boot conc. (That would be concretion or with a sediment buildup). Its not from the Batavia, and it ain't the boots you pictured.)

To settle this, I e-mailed the Batavia Wreck Museum in Australia and included the pic. I guess we should know soon enough (and I will post their reply when I get it... yeah or nay ).

2) This is one of Foxe's pictures (I think) and he says that they are French Sailors. I would love to know more about the picture, but I definitely think its early or at least pre-1700 (or someone just like painting early guns).

They ain't on a ship, that is for certain, and they are wearing clothing that is highly unusual. I guess sailors of any period also have the "proof" they need to wear a Capote style blanket robe as well.

So far this is your best "proof" yet IF they are in fact sailors and IF it is in Fact GAoP. So if you go on a hunting party with naked natives in a Capote, boots seem to be de rigueur.

3) and the rest.....

You yourself said they were post GAoP so I won't go into detail on them.

Look, I understand that its your personal goal to find the holy grail here. And I am not the boot anti-Christ. I just don't think that when someone is trying to re-create a period in history to reflect a specific time/era, they can't base a kit off of their personal theories without more concrete proof.

And

As I will state again, for those that scan over post without reading them, people will use picture 2 to Justify ANY FREAKIN BOOT THE WANT TO WEAR.

You yourself stated that the boots seem to be

They are not the musketeer type of “Bucket Bootâ€, nor are they the stiff riding boot, but a tall, looser leather boot with the tops folded down.

But folks don't want to hear that either because that is not the kind of boots that they can buy from CA Boots.

For me, just because something was worn pre GAoP and POST GAoP is not proof that it was worn during GAOP...

I will stick by Boots during the GAoP were a tool. A specific tool for riding horses and not part of a fashion statement. Now, they may have been fashionable for Early to mid 1600s and we know they were fashionable again in the late 1700s to the early-mid 1800s, but NOT during 1690-1720 time frame.

IF they were so friggin popular and notable to sailors (like the fantasy crowd would like us to believe) why wouldn't any of the Pirates in Johnson's book be pictured with them?

Seems like they missed a Great opportunity to show how Teach, Rackam, Bonnet, and the rest took all this fancy stuff from rich people, or how fashion conscience they were.....

But they didn't.

GoF

[Fox]

Picture #2 is one of the series of watercolours painted by DuPlessis during a French circumnavigation. The voyage occured IIRC either side of 1700 (1698-1701 sounds familiar, but I might be mistaken). We don't know exactly when it was painted, but circa-1700 would be a fair date to apply.

We don't know either for sure that they are seamen, they might be soldiers or civilians, but we do know that they are sea-going men.

Also, as you point out, they are not on a ship - but since most pirates portray men ashore that's not necessarily a problem from a re-enactment point of view.

The important point though is that it is one picture. Even the rest of the DuPlessis watercolours show shoes. We have dozens and dozens of pictures from the GAoP or near-GAoP period, showing hundreds of seamen, and we have pages and pages of written information about the appearance and clothing of seamen of the period, and this picture is the only one which indicates long boots being worn.

What can we infer from that? Yes, long boots may well have been worn by one or two seamen during the GAoP, but they represent a minute proportion. Hang on, haven't we been saying that all along? Despite 16 pages (and counting) we haven't actually seen any new evidence of widespread boot wearing in the GAoP, and havent actually progressed anywhere from the original hypothesis.

It is a common misconception that we can't really know what people looked like because we have "only a few etchings"or whatever to go on. That statement is flawed badly, we have huge amounts of information, from the broad depictions of the Van de Velde figures to the detailed specs for the Admiralty slops; reams and reams of information from different sources, different places, relating to different people. We have ONE picture showing long boots. That's it.

YES, BOOTS WERE WORN, BUT VERY VERY RARELY.

There's no evidence for widespread boot wearing in the GAoP

There's no logic for widespread boot wearing in the GAoP

There's a HUGE amount of evidence for other footwear in the GAoP

Must we really keep flogging this bloody horse any further? I'm all in favour of discussion leading to progress, but we're just going round and round in bloody circles, always coming back to what we've been saying all along. Or am I wrong?

[kass]

For me, just because something was worn pre GAoP and POST GAoP is not proof that it was worn during GAOP...

Not just for you, Greg, but it should be so for everyone.

Let me illustrate the problem with a story...

Cartridge pleating was an extremely popular style of pleating in the 16th and 17th centuries. It gives the kind of width to petticotes and skirts that was popular during those time periods. It is also an extremely popular method of pleating in the 19th century when we not only see it on skirts but on sleeves. They went cartridge-pleating nutty!

We have a whole lot of pleated gowns extant from the 18th century. Not a cartridge pleat on one of them. We also have extant tailor's books. No mention of cartridge pleating (or any technique that resembles cartridge pleating).

Did tailors in the 18th century lose their minds and forget how to cartridge pleat? Were cartridge pleats outlawed in the 18th century?

No. They probably just went out of style...

Now you could do your 18thc petticotes and gown skirts with cartridge pleats, but they'd be wrong. They'd look wrong and they'd hang wrong. They would still be wearable, but they wouldn't be a very good representation of clothing in the 18th century...

Sometimes styles go out of fashion. Sometimes techniques disappear and reappear. While it seems logical to assume if something was done in the 17th and 19th centuries, it would also be done in the 18th century, the above illustrates how that is not always the case.

Advice number one: if you want to do something period appropriate, look to surviving artifacts.

Advice number two: back up the surviving artifacts with period pictures of the artifacts being used.

Advice number three: one picture or surviving artifact does not make the item common.

That's all. Wear boots if you like 'em. But don't purport that they were worn by pirates during the GAoP.

[Pirate Petee]

Foxe-

Yes I agree with you, there is no proof for widespread evidence of boot wearing in the GAoP.

I don’t agree with you about Logic though, that’s to speculative, what is one persons Logic is not always the next. Everyone’s reality is relative.

Yes I agree with you that there is a huge amount of evidence of other footwear.

GOF-

I agree with you also, that the boot was a tool, a piece of gear. Also what you said about the weather, it being cold. That’s why, in my opinion, I would prefer to wear something tall and waterproof on my leg to keep them warm and dry. Loose enough, for mobility and have the same sole as a shoe to retain traction. As the pictures depicted.

On an individual persona level, boots could be very authentic, but going by pictures, as a group they could lower the level of authenticity as a whole.

I to have sent the pictures, to the curator of the museum from which they came.

[JoshuaRed]

I am not going to state purposes because that’s speculative.

Why stop there - this whole issue is speculative, at least from the side of trying to make the case for boots. Pirates existed, and boots existed, both at the same time. We can only speculate as to whether or not any of them wore said boots.

With that said, the cold issue is worth considering -- remember the GAOP was on the tail end of a mini-ice age...would have been colder then.

[Pirate Petee]

True, but pirates were sailors, among other things and sailors wore boots, thats not speculation. Why they wore them, thats speculative, well at least to me as I am not a sailor. I have my reasons why they would wear them and I have my reasons why they woukld wear shoes as well.

[Fox]

True, but pirates were sailors, among other things and sailors wore boots, thats not speculation.

Not speculation maybe, but it is a VERY misleading statement. Two sailors out of thousands may have worn boots (see my earlier comments about proportions of sources), but that's a long way from "sailors wore boots".

As an individual I could justify wearing boots, a sash, a great big tricorn hat, long coat, brocquade waistcoat, Scottish broadsword, and a large jewelled cross pendant. But, as soon as I stand next to someone else in the same outfit then we're both misrepresenting the appearance of a GAoP era pirate.

Nobody's suggesting that pirates never wore any of those things, but to imagine that they were typical or common is just kidding oneself.

[Pirate Petee]

I couldn't agree more.

[Cut-throat]

I have heard that boot are not practical on deck of a ship. Any reason why buckled shoes would be better ? Sounds to me like being barefoot would probably be best (climbing the ratlines, etc. ). Anyway, just my question and two cents.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Foxe... you are fast!

True, but pirates were sailors, among other things and sailors wore boots, thats not speculation. Why they wore them, thats speculative, well at least to me as I am not a sailor.

Now hold on... I can't let this pass. We have not determined that sailors "wore boots". We have yet to find any concrete evidence of sailors from the GAoP, let alone pirates wearing them.

If anyone should know this, it should be you. You have spent more time trying to prove it than anyone.

But remember, as far has historical evicence, 1629 and 1829 are almost 100 years out of period for this discussion. If you have convinced yourself that a picture of some obvious calvarlymen of the 1640s or some Napoleonic era sailors with boots justifies shipboard boot use for 1717, than this discussion isn't going to get much further.

Did you know that there are probably 10 times the amount of pictures of Naval officers/captains in ARMOR than there are of them wearing boots???

Admiral Russel 1693

Admiral Shovell 1702

Again, if they were Fashionable, wouldn't the guys who could afford to be depicted in the lastest fashion be wearing them?

GoF

[kass]

I have heard that boot are not practical on deck of a ship. Any reason why buckled shoes would be better ? Sounds to me like being barefoot would probably be best (climbing the ratlines, etc. ). Anyway, just my question and two cents.

Cuthroat, try popping over to the other thread called "Boots" in Plunder. There were some statements there by people who sail regularly about the unfeasibility of going barefoot in the rigging.

[JoshuaRed]

Sounds to me like being barefoot would probably be best (climbing the ratlines, etc. ). Anyway, just my question and two cents.

Just a couple buzzwords to throw out here that may help -- splinters. Infections. Blisters. Smashed Toes. More splinters. Rope burn. Sun burn. More splinters. powder burn. Stubbed toes.

The same reason you'll never see a commercial fisherman going barefoot is the same reason a GAOP wouldn't want to spend much time barefoot. Tender lil' piggies surrounded by heavy gear, rough weather and gunpowder is not a good combo.

[Captain Jim]

Cool! I'll wear armor and change my name to Captain Rustbucket! Or Commander Ironpants!

[Pirate Petee]

True, but pirates were sailors, among other things and sailors wore boots, thats not speculation. Why they wore them, thats speculative, well at least to me as I am not a sailor.

Now hold on... I can't let this pass. We have not determined that sailors "wore boots". We have yet to find any concrete evidence of sailors from the GAoP, let alone pirates wearing them.

I’m saying that they were fashionable in the sense that they existed and were around, not that they were fashionable in a sense of fashion. Other wise people would be posing in them all the time. I am stating that they were more of a work boot. Those pics on the last page were all of sailors, I’ll have more info about the Batavia boots hopefully Monday. Those pics back up the purposes of why a sailor would wear boots. I will agree that shoes were more common in a fashionable sense.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Sailors...

and except for the French guys in Capotes with natives,

not GAoP sailors....

GoF

[Cut-throat]

Thanks Kass., I'll check it out.

JoshuaRed, you make very good points against being barefoot, but I was wondering about the debate of boots versus shoes, why one would be better than the other. I've heard people argue on the forum that boots would be slippery on deck. Along those lines, wouldn't shoes be slippery as well ?

[Bully MacGraw]

Good day lads and lassies, I am just hopping into this here conversation. I am a real Captain, a historian and a traditional sailor. Regarding bucket top boots.....They were worn by EVERY PYRATE!!...Why do I know this, because I have seen Capt. Blood, all the Earl Flynn movies and every pirate movie made in Hollywood. I have also seen Victorian paintings. Last but not least, I have been to numerous Ren Fairs were I have seen Pyrates in tricorns , percussion lock pistols,Victorian Dirks and Bucket Boots! I have also seen men in kilts wearing bucket boots. Therefore EVERY sottish pirate wore a kilt and bucket boots!

O.K. Back to reality. There are those who get there inspiration from Hollywood and the Victorians. Presenting logic and historical evidence will not change there mind.

Cheers from California

Ed

[kass]

Hi Captain Ed.

I like your sense of humour!

However, in this particular forum, Captain Twill, we are supposed to be discussing maritime history, historical research, and other academic info.

Hollywood inspiration is fine. But this isn't the forum in which to discuss it. Artistic inspiration and fantasy pirate gear should be discussed elsewhere, like in Plunder or Pirate Pop.

Nothing wrong with being inspired by Hollywood though...

[JoshuaRed]

Ed! Love your post, love your boats!

I don't think boots/shoes is an issue of slipperiness...barefeet are just as slippery on wet smooth wood. Growing up I slipped and fell on my share of docks & floats in the lakes & ocean we used to swim in.

Boots are heavy, especially when wet, and wearing them up and down the shrouds all day would be most awkward I think, with the heels catching in the ratlines, etc.

Standard GAOP shoes were worn because they are the closest thing to the comfy, lightweight, usable sneakers & boat shoes we have today for boating.

[Fox]

Petee, how many of the 19thC pictures you posted were of fishermen? We've already seen how the different jobs done by fishermen led them to be wearing different clothing (including boots) to seamen, and those pictures look a heckuva lot like fishermen to me.

Now, if anyone were to get the kit together for an accurate GAoP era fisherman I'd be impressed!

I've sailed in bare feet, and it's great when the sun's out, but a single grey cloud is enough to freeze those pinkies off, and one good clout against cold toes hurts SO much!

On the subject of deck-shoes, I was gonna post this next week as a new "Dissecting the GAoP" thread, but a list of supplies sent to Adam Baldridge's trading post on St. Marie's, Madagascar in 1693 (and most of his customers were pirates) included "shoes and pumps". Anyone care to venture an opinion as to what 1690s pumps were like?

[dasNdanger]

I have an observation about boots based on the info I've been able to find. As has been said, during the GAoP it seems boots had fallen out of fashion in general, and were replaced by shoes. However, we are focusing primarily on English fashion. What about the French? I ask this because of a very silly little thing - Puss in Boots. Written by a Frenchman and published c. 1697, dear Puss is definitely sporting boots, and certainly not for riding. Why? Well, in a nutshell, the underlying theme of that story was that the clothes make the man. So, could the French have favored boots a bit longer, and if so, could that be why some artists later toyed with the idea of GAoP pirates in boots? This is all just guesswork, but it is curious to me that a Frenchman would have written a tale about a cat in boots if boots were totally out of fashion by that time.

So - here's your mission, Petee, if you choose to accept it: see what you can come up with on Frenchie's in boots. Perhaps some were influenced by the army boot (from the Army museum) seen on this page http://www.costumes.org/history/100pages/17THSHOE.HTM . If French naval officers happened fancy that boot, perhaps 'officers' (used loosely) aboard a pirate ship followed suit. OF COURSE, we have no proof in the form of documentation or art work...YET...

das - just stirring the pot again

[Skull pyrate Carter]

One thing about the paintings in armor. They were posed pictures. So, they were wearing what they wanted in the painting, not what they wear. Correct?

[Pirate Petee]

Good day lads and lassies, I am just hopping into this here conversation. I am a real Captain, a historian and a traditional sailor. Regarding bucket top boots.....They were worn by EVERY PYRATE!!...Why do I know this, because I have seen Capt. Blood, all the Earl Flynn movies and every pirate movie made in Hollywood. I have also seen Victorian paintings. Last but not least, I have been to numerous Ren Fairs were I have seen Pyrates in tricorns , percussion lock pistols,Victorian Dirks and Bucket Boots! I have also seen men in kilts wearing bucket boots. Therefore EVERY sottish pirate wore a kilt and bucket boots!

O.K. Back to reality. There are those who get there inspiration from Hollywood and the Victorians. Presenting logic and historical evidence will not change there mind.

Cheers from California

Ed

I like this post, thats what I'm going with from now on. My fiance says I can get a flintlock, a real one. Oh boy is the neighbor hood in trouble.

[Skull pyrate Carter]

okay my first real research into this discussion.

(http://podiatry.curtin.edu.au/boot.html#chop) Cameron Kippen, Curtin Universty of Technology, Perth WA states on his site:

Boots of the Sixteenth Century

During the sixteenth century boots were worn by the military or part of hunting attire. As war tore through Europe in the following centuries, boots again became the fashion. High boots were popular in Spain where they seemed to originate from. Henry IV of France (1589-1610) enjoyed wearing the best of leathers and relalised the craftmen in Franch were inferior to elsewhere. He commissioned a tanner to study leather work in Hungary where the old trades still existed. His influence made boots very fashionable in France and they were allowed to be worn in salons as well as on the dance floor. The style of boots varied relating to whatever purpose they were put to. Boots were distinctively men's fashion everybit as much as the codpiece. According to Girotti (1997) to make the boots fit tightly around the leg, they were first soaked in water. Once they dried on the leg it was very difficult for the man wearing the boots to bend their knees. Dismounted horsemen walked with stiffened legs. This may have given rise to a distinctive swaggering gait which at the time was considered very macho.

Boots of the Seventeenth Century

By the beginning seventeenth century boots had become fashionable for men and were worn at the English court during Charles I reign. (1600-1649). Charles suffered from osteomalacia (rickets) as a child and was feared would never walk without the aid of calipers. The Royal shoemaker designed boots which has concealed brass supports in the heel and ankle. Once an adult he was able to walk without the aid of his supports but continued to wear boot for preference. Tightly fitting boots became the fashion and were folded back into deep tops. The front flap of the boots provided a handsome strap to fit spurs onto. Later soft boots with baggy creases and full tops became the fashion at European courts. Ladies continued to wear slippers with pointed toes and in some cases high heeled pumps. (Burnett, 1926). Cordoba was the centre for leather craft in Europe and the term cordwainer refers to a man who has derived his craft from the Spanish city of Cordoba. Craftsmen were sent to Cordoba to learn the secrets of the leather trade and bring them back to France. Cordoban boots were soft and worn crumpled or with a kink. A large piece of leather shapped like a butterfly was stitched across the instep to hold the golden or silver rowel spurs. A soulette was a strap fastened under the foot, which also held the spur in position. Poor quality boots were made from cow hide which was heavier but more durable. The lace edged boothose were worn inside the boot and were made from linen. These protected the delicate silk stockings from being soiled by the leather. From 1610 onwards boots were worn indoors, sometimes with an overshoe. (After peace was ratified in the Treaty of Westphilia in 1648, boots were no longer worn indoors.) Riding boots were worn high with widely flared or funnel tops protecting the knee when riding. This part of the boot could be turned down for town wear. Already in 1627 gentlemen were wearing light coloured boots with red heels and the edges of the soles were stained red. Under Louis XIII (1601-1643) a shorter, lighter model of boot known as the Ladrine was worn. By 1630 a protective additional sole or golosh made from thick leather or wood was used to keep the fine boots and shoes from the dirt of the streets. Boots were only accepted for riding, hunting and walking by this time. Restoration of the Stuarts to the English thrown (1660) brought the heeled boot to England. Men wore boots with very long stockings which flared at the top of the leg and caught the foot with a strap under the instep. These were worn over silk stockings. Boots were worn tight on the leg but the top could be turned over. The footwear was made of soft leather.The Cavalier boot had a very wide top which could be turned down for town wear, showing silk or coloured leather lining. The width of the leg had increased and the boots were worn wide across the toes. Toes became square and this fashion remained popular till the end of the century. Aristocracy preferred light, high heeled shoes and boot but the working class wore more practical and cheaper shoes, which were low heeled. Usually dark brown, with leather latchet ties, deep square toes and closed sides. In 1660 the France of Louis XIV became the fashion capital and shoes for men were preferred over boots. From 1660 onwards decorative frills, or cannons, were worn below the knee and hence shoes became more popular. At the end of the reign of Charles II (1630-85) the militarty still wore an old style heavy boot. This was replaced by a light leather leggings covering the boot called houseaux. The heavy boot was still used for riding. In 1663 the first seamless boot was made by a Gascon shoemaker called Lestage. King William of Orange (1650-1702) introduced the jackboot, which was of sturdy construction and worn high above the knee, quartered, and heeled with immense breadth for the toes. Thigh high boots were fashionable for soldiers and horsemen, Worn tight on the calf they were ample enough to be folded over in a buccaneer fashion above the knee. Sometimes covered in decoration with punched designs they covered the whole leg and were held in place with garters or suspenders from the doublet. The above knee section was known as bucket tops and were worn with leathers and spurs. The boot offered protective armour to the leg and is still worn by the Housuehold Cavalry. Before the advent of gum boots the style of boot was worn by fishwermen. Thigh high boots were originally worn by pirates and smugglers, who tucked contraband or "booty" into them. The practice gave rise to the term, "bootlegging'.

Boots of the Eighteenth Century

During the eighteenth century boots had surpassed shoes as the fashionable footwear for men. They became more refined and slimmed down in style. Worn with turned down tops, lined in brown, to contrast with the black leather of the rest of the boot, the top boots were distinctly elegant. The style was based on the boots worn by horse jockeys who partook in the newly fashionable sport of horse racing (Baynes K , Baynes K, 1979). The black and brown boots worn to below the knee were for outdoors. O'Keeffe, (1996) considered women would have less need to venture outdoors and hence their shoes were more flimsy by comparison. Tans and pale shades were popular with the gentry. Dandified young Englishmen became obsessed with all things foreign and were christened Macaronis by satirists. They used to have iron heel clips fitted to draw attention to themselves as they walked through the streets. George Beau Brummell (1790- 1840) epitomised the new age macho dresser and as a dandy was quite different to fops of the previous century. Brummell had certain ideocynrcacies and was reputed to have his boots polished with champagne. Not only that he insisted in having the soles of his boots polished at the same time as the uppers. The reason being he was concerned the edge of the boots were not perfectly shined. Brummell sported the two most popular styles of the time. These were the English, John Bull (or tall boot) and the Austrian, Hess boot. Hess boots took their name from the German state of Hesse, where they were made. The hesse boot was knee high and cut on a V at the front. Often the boot had a decorative tassle. In time the Wellington boot superceded the popularity of the hessian boot (also called Souvaroffs). This was a slim cut leather boot which was worn under narrow trousers. Napolean boots cut high in the front and worn to the knees first appeared round about 1730. The design allowed the knee to bend as well as offer protection to the joint when exposed during horseriding. It was common practice to wear long woollen stockings under the knee high riding boots. The laced ankle boot we know associate with modern militaria originated from the Blucher shoe which was based on a boot worn by Prince of Wahlstadt, Gebhard Leberecht von Blucher, a Prussian field Marshall. His popularity was second only to Wellington as a hero of the battle of Waterloo. The blucher or derby was a high cut shoe with a tongue cut in one piece with the forepart and fastened with laces. Women's boots were a modified version of men's footwear designed for equestrian persuit. However it did not escape the attention of French writer and wit, Nicolas-Sebastien Chamfort (1741-1794), who wrote in Maxims's and Considerations of the common habit for ladies to tip their man servents to help remove their tight boots. Chamfort was of course referring to flirtations resulting from exposure of forbiden flesh. A common practice among the upper classes. In 1770 boots were introduced to dandies who started to wear their boots to half calf. Splatter dashes were puttees or leggings that buttoned on the inside of the leg and worn to protect the delicate silk hose during inclement weather. Jockey boots were introduced in 1780. However the need to protect feet from the elements necessitated new materials be developed and during the 1790's patent leather became available. Shoes and boots treated with the new process became a very popular fashion on both sides of the Atlantic. By the end of the century young men wore the popular hussar bushkins which were short boots with a dip in the front, mid tibia. French top boots with a turned over top were also fashionable. V-fronted tasselled hessian boots were made from soft leather and proved popular with men.

just one source. But think about it. We spend time looking at records and paintings. Wouldn't someone such as a podiatrist maybe hold the key to this discussion?

[JoshuaRed]

So, they were wearing what they wanted in the painting, not what they wear. Correct?

Yeah, that is generally true...not sure if anyone wore breatplates at sea in the GAOP at all. I certainly haven't heard of it...I think it may be a 15th-16th C. throwback. "Retro" has always been cool, those guys knew it too.