Flintlocks and the Law

[Mick MacAnselan]

Hoping someone knows... In Pennsylvania, you can carry a 'handgun' (such as a Queen Anne Flintllock Pistol) in a vehicle without a carry license if it's unloaded and you're on your way to or from a legal shooting place. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be the same exemption for carrying to/from a non-shooting reenactment. So in that case, what would you have to do to a flintlock so that it is no longer considered a firearm? Remove the flint? Fill the barrel with concrete? Anyone know?

[kass]

Mick, I live in PA too and it's my understanding that replica weapons are not considered firearms at all in the Commonwealth. This is why you can sell them without a dealer's license and buy them without a handgun license. You don't even have to do what you describe to carry your Queen Anne pistol without a license. It's simply not a firearm.

But not every highway patrolman knows the intricacies of this law. But you will be fine as long as you don't carry it loaded. You NEVER carry it loaded, you do?

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

Static electricity WILL detonate the charge in a black-powder weapon! :)

Geee... wonder how I would know that?

[Captain_MacNamara]

Some people preferr to remain ignorant of the law even when you beat them over the head with the laws themselves...

So, with that in mind, considering some of the people I've had to deal with, I plugged the vent hole on my flintlock with JB weld... easy enough to drill out again later, and then all I have to do is point out that the vent hole is plugged and the piece simply cannot fire in it's current condition, and they say "Oh... ok then carry on". I have, however, never once had the problem with an officer. They often ask to see the weapon, yes, but because they have usually never seen one up close and like it. I've even had some officers make suggestions as to how to add decoration to my piece.

[Captain Jim]

Flintlocks are not firearm under US law. So you should not have a problem. If your stop officer is ignorant, ask for the shift surpervisor to be present. That usually causes pause for thought. That said...

Case the thing and put it somewhere other than your front seat. Unless you have a carry permit, all weapons should be stored in such a fashion as to be unavailable and unobservable without a warrant-level search of the car. If you get served with a warrant roadside(and you have to appear to be very bad to have that happen), tell all so as not to surprise the officers. And in that case, I don't know you....

[Captain_MacNamara]

In a similar incident, I was once stopped by a county deputy on my way to an event... I was in my full garb, weapons included. (he stopped me for a busted tail light) He asked me if I had any weapons on me, and I asked him to bear with me, because this was going to take a minute. I first explained who I was and what I was doing, then he let *me* disarm... with a rather bemused look on his face at the 4 daggers, pistol, and belaying pin I laid out on the hood of his car. Then he asked some more questions (sounded interested) about where we were going and what was going on there, told me to get the tail light fixed, and chuckled a bit on his way back to the car.

:)

[LadyBarbossa]

Good one, MacNamara!

But... true. Now... I've not been able to keep up with a lot when it comes to re-enactment weapons.. but last time I spoke with a Law Enforcement official in the State of Iowa... mentioned that replica weapons needed no permit unless you intend to put a projectile (bullet) into it. And I certainly do not wish to do that to my carbine!

Black powder is hard to come by... especially the correct kind that WILL work. And from my understanding .. I've been told you HAVE to have a permit or liscense to purchase and possess the explosive. ::Rolls eyes:: kinda hard when regulations with re-enactment associations demand cartridges rolled before the event and not at the event. I can go into another lecture about this.

I know in the State of Illinois... a couple months ago many re-enactors were up in arms (no pun intended) over the fact a State Politician wanted to ban replica weapons. Oh, God did that send us all into a tizzy! I live in Iowa, but pass through Illinois to go to all my Rev War events... and even a few of them are in Illinois. A fair portion of re-enactors from all sorts of eras live in Illinois.

No.. it didn't settle well at all... and with as much ruckus caused, eventually, the bill was halted and vetoed.

Reason being for the ban was apparently some idiot in the Chicago area used a WW2 replica Bazooka (or something like that) in a stand off. That's what I heard. True or not, who knows.

Another is a former US Marshall told me to becareful of the laws of townships, towns and cities, counties, etc.... since each has their own laws... some places have Codes that date back to the 19th c and ban weapons from the vicinity. Oddly enough.

It's not easy that's for sure for those of us who recreate history.

But, true. If you are on the good side of the Law and show a little respect to the Law Enforcement when it comes to these weapons they admire our safety measures. And the weapons we possess.

~Lady B

[Zephaniah W Nash]

Well, being in Texas, many bets are off...

Largely, it seems the same as all the other posts here, any sort of flintlock, or even caplocks, just aren't firearms, so no worries. They will get you, though, if you carry it loaded. It's still a weapon, at the very least, and many cops (as has also been noted) don't know the law all that well.

I've never had any trouble finding black powder - the real stuff, and Pyrodex is very easy, of course, and that's what I usually use in my Colt Navy, as it is less caustic and does less damage to the piece.

[Mick MacAnselan]

Mick, I live in PA too and it's my understanding that replica weapons are not considered firearms at all in the Commonwealth.  This is why you can sell them without a dealer's license and buy them without a handgun license.  You don't even have to do what you describe to carry your Queen Anne pistol without a license.  It's simply not a firearm.

But not every highway patrolman knows the intricacies of this law.  But you will be fine as long as you don't carry it loaded.  You NEVER carry it loaded, you do?  

I did some research and it's a bit confusing. Here's a quote from PA Title 18, Chapter 61, Subchapter A - Uniform Firearms Act...

§ 6118. Antique firearms.

(a) General rule.--This subchapter shall not apply to antique firearms.

( Exception.--Subsection (a) shall not apply to the extent that such antique firearms, reproductions or replicas of firearms are concealed weapons as provided in section 6106 (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license), nor shall it apply to the provisions of section 6105 (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms) if such antique firearms, reproductions or replicas of firearms are suitable for use. © Definition.--As used in this section, the term "antique firearm" means:

Any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock or percussion cap type of ignition system 1050.

Any firearm manufactured on or before 1898.

Any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (2) if such replica:

is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire fixed ammunition; or

uses rimfire or conventional center fire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

It appears that the Subchapter (i.e. the Uniform Firearms Act) does not apply to Antiques, EXCEPT for section 6106, which is the section that says you need a carry license except for specific exemptions (law enforcement, target shooting, etc. etc.) (Subsection A is the 'General Rule' about antiques... so there's an exception to the exception) So the way I read it, unless you're doing very specific activities, you need a carry license to transport a flintlock pistol in your vehicle in PA. Hope I'm wrong though! Should mention I got this from This here webpage

[kass]

Yeah, I found that too, Mick, on that website and the stuff I found on the PA State Trooper site just didn't agree. I think whoever transcribed that subsection forgot the "not" in regards to licensing.

[redhand]

Guys-

You do NOT have to have a special license ot own, sell, possess

a reproduction flintlock or caplock firearm (they fall into the Antique

firearm rule pre 1898) That's why, you can buy them through the mail

and do not have to have a FFL to purchase them. As for black powder...

you can buy that at any store that carries it....That being said, some stores

refuse to carry it, because the feds make them purchase an entirely seperrate

license to carry/sell BP, that's why you'll see most sporting goods places carrying

Goex, or something similar, and NOT BP. Filling the venthole on a working firelock

just turned that $200 to $300 dollar firearm into a paperweight, you'd have been

MUCH better off with a replica, if in fact you did have a working firelock.

always check your local state laws before ordering/buying that new pistol...

in some states it may indeed be cheaper in the long run to have a non-firing

replica.

-Redhand

[Mick MacAnselan]

Yeah, I found that too, Mick, on that website and the stuff I found on the PA State Trooper site just didn't agree.  I think whoever transcribed that subsection forgot the "not" in regards to licensing.

Kass, do you have a link to the state trooper site? TIA.

Also, found THIS which looks like a print of the actual statute. Alas it looks like there were no typos at the other site.

[callenish gunner]

for safety sake i suggest a leather hammerstall and no powder in the pan at al and it is best to unload any weapon when transporting it with a vehichle ..... that's why you should have a ball extractor in your kit so you can do that safely ....i also carry my powder in a seperate chest

[capnwilliam]

Under federal law and the laws of most states, you'd be on solid legal ground carrying a flintlock, unloaded, and in plain sight: provided you have some legitimate reason for carrying it, such as being at a reenactment, or being en route to and from an event.

By "in plain sight", I'm referring to carry on the person.

In a vehicle, the general rule of thumb is; unloaded: ammo kept separately: weapon in a rigid, locked, opaque container, and in the trunk.

I also recommend that those of you who live in the 35 or so states that have enacted "shall issue" concealed weapons laws apply for a carry permit.

Personally, I don't know why any adult in his right mind who can get a permit to carry a concealed handgun WOULDN'T do so.

Capt. William

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

I got mine! :)

[Captain Jim]

As do I.

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

HUZZA!

Capt. Jim, is Florida's CCW law reciprocal with other states? Do they recognize Missouri's ? I know that when we got our law approved two years ago it was written in that Missouri's was a reciprocal law that would recognize CCW permits from other states.

[Captain Jim]

Go here, Capt. to see the list and the limitations.

And yes, we do, is the short answer. We recognize 29 other states. Now for those other miscreants...

[Cascabel]

Got mine too !!! ( Ga. ). Reciprocal with Florida, and several other states. I have the list, but not at hand right now.

>>>>> Cascabel

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

YOU GUYS ROCK!

Thanks for the info.

[Sir Beachem Quick]

Here's What I know about gun laws in Florida. If you do not have a concelled wheapons permit it Must be visible at all times.

Unless all of these are true! 1. it is empty, 2. It has a trigger lock and 3. it is in a locked trunk, Glove box or gun safe.

This is known as the three step gun safety program.

Flints? not sure

[Duncan McGuyver]

Mick-

Refer to this site for a easy to read breakdown of PA's gin laws, as well as any other states:

NRA State Gun Law Listing

I too live in PA and have not had any issues. I-

Transport port my pistols in a locked pistol case in the back of my truck - well out of my reach.

I transport my powder in a seperate locked powder locker - also out of reach.

If questioned I would fall under

" However, no license is required:

(2) when engaged in target shooting or while going to or from shooters` places of assembly or target practice, provided the firearm is unloaded and the ammunition is carried in a separate container;"

It just so happens that in my "target shooting" / "shooters place of assembly" I shoot without a projectile

I personally have more of a issue when I work offsite at secure facilities and the explosive doggies get very excited sniffing my truck. I alway end up having to go to one of those after I have been out having fun with the cannon and pistols.

Duncan

[Mick MacAnselan]

If questioned I would fall under

" However, no license is required:

(2) when engaged in target shooting or while going to or from shooters` places of assembly or target practice, provided the firearm is unloaded and the ammunition is carried in a separate container;"

It just so happens that in my "target shooting" / "shooters place of assembly" I shoot without a projectile 

Duncan,

Thanks. I was thinking of that exemption too, except that it wouldn't cover times when you don't actually shoot the bloody thing, as backwards as that sounds. I might just bite the bullet (no pun) and get a carry license, and not worry about it. Hey, check your Pub messages for incoming.

[Capt Thighbiter]

i just imported a bronze cannon ( nice one too at 32" long and 1-5/8" bore). It came thru Customs and believe me, it was ARDUOS. THe inspector saw cannon on the manifest and went out of his mind. I spent the entire DAY on the phone with 4 different divisions of BATF and I think I know the laws by heart now.

Muzzleloading black powder flintlocks are not considered firearms or weapons under the federal laws. Period. More in the line of a toy, so for all those who were saying , ' concealed weapons', replace the word weapon with toy and see if that makes sense.

Of course local laws and statutes would apply, but for the most part, making a LEO aware that you know the federal laws on this point will usually ease thier mind. By far the vast majority of people have no idea when it comes to such a narrow area of interest. It would be a painstaking municipality indeed to have written laws on this topic, it is so narrow.

[Mick MacAnselan]

Of course local laws and statutes would apply, but for the most part,  making a LEO aware that you know the federal laws on this point will usually ease thier mind.  By far the vast majority of people have no idea when it comes to such a narrow area of interest.  It would be a painstaking municipality indeed to have written laws on this topic, it is so narrow.

Capt,

It ain't the municipality in my case, it's the state of PA, and yes, PA has specific code applying to antiques (which is where flintlocks fall per PA code). The PA code even states that antiques are not firearms, but that certain provisions (such as carry/transport) of the firearm sections do apply to antiques. The PA code has exceptions to exceptions to exceptions, but after you parse your way through it, you need a carry license to transport a flintlock in a vehicle except to/from a shoot, a dealer, or a repair place (and maybe a couple other exceptions). I don't think I want to say to a PA state trooper, "Yes I know it's illegal in PA, but the feds have nothing against it".