Clothing Question

[hurricane]

This is a great discussion.

I have a question... say you're out on account for some period of time. You raid a number of ships and part of the take is the crewe's clothing and personal possessions. Would you not trade in your tattered and torn shirt for one from a Spanish captive or victim's chest? Same with other clothing items.

This only occurs to me because in Vietnam, my brother was in the service and the first thing he did was toss his M-16 in favor of an AK-47. I'm sure this has happened in other times of conflict, it's just a concrete example from my own experience and I know this was not a rare practice there. Far more servicable weapon in the environment than the early M-16s which jammed alll the time.

I would envision that pirates would obviously diversify their clothing and weapons according to what they found on board captured vessels and what was divided up as spoils. So over time a crew may have a much more varied look, depending upon the nationalities of the ships they take. I would think it would be natural for a pirate to take a better weapon from a captive or victim and probably take his much better shoes, belt or whatever.

Thoughts on this?

-- Hurricane

[Pirate Petee]

Couldn't agree more. Necessity out ways .......could'nt think of the word, but oh well. I belive it would differ from each port or location they went to. The more exotic the location the more varieties of clothing. Also mix that with personal preference.

[Deadeye]

WOW... I just want to point out that I just had a simple question and you guys just ran with it!.... that what i Love about this place... never a dull moment

[Monterey Jack]

Well i'm enjoyin the hell out of it! Great topic folks!

[Pirate Petee]

WOW... I just want to point out that I just had a simple question and you guys just ran with it!.... that what i Love about this place... never a dull moment

Yeah that happens alot.

[Monterey Jack]

This is a great discussion.

I would envision that pirates would obviously diversify their clothing and weapons according to what they found on board captured vessels and what was divided up as spoils. So over time a crew may have a much more varied look, depending upon the nationalities of the ships they take.

I agree; and I think that's one of the high points to creating a pirate character. Even staying as accurate to a particular time as you can (if that's your angle...), the possibilities to accessorize are great. One of the reasons you're seeing it more and more at local Ren events is folks are getting tired of being told "well, you're English living in London in 1580 so you have to wear this...."

Folks would rather be living in the Caribbean or Madagascar wearing whatever the heck they like. :)

And this discussion is certainly a great help!

[blackjohn]

I think a lot of people get caught up in the thinking that "because I am a pirate , I am now going to wear anything I want to wear". I am not sure that Pirates would wear anything that would mark them as pirates.

I agree with alot of what you are saying GoF, however, I'm going to take the opposite tack on this one.

I gave the RN the best years of my life, dammit, and now look at me, an old salt, cashiered from the only job I knew. I will go to sea, and I will seek my revenge.

As for mutiny... well, mutiny has grand traditions... even semi-legit mutiny, or should I say petitions, happened during the ECW. Do a search on the Levellers.

I believe it is plausible to say a disaffected population may adopt a particular style of dress.

[blackjohn]

WOW...  I just want to point out that I just had a simple question and you guys just ran with it!....  that what i Love about this place... never a dull moment

Yeah that happens alot.

Yep. And sometimes we sorta jump up and down and break a few things along the way.

But we mean well.

[Deadeye]

Yep. And sometimes we sorta jump up and down and break a few things along the way. 

But we mean well.

Well that is obvious. I say a little Good natured "Heated discussion" is healthy fer us all.

As fer my two bits, i say this... As far as Any historical time period, We can have a Pretty good Idea based on historical evidence, common sense and perhaps a bit of gross speculation but we will never truly KNOW for certain so somethings i feel are open to personal interpretation..

*Disclaimer* "Personal interpretation" does not mean "Yes its a new fabric i invented. I Call it Polyester"

[Hawkyns]

OK, my two penn'orth. I will agree with the concept of getting better weapons when available, or replacing worn out clothing with loot in better repair HOWEVER!!! Sailors clothing developed out of practical neccesity. It was utilitarian in every sense. So even though you may be upgrading, you would still be wearing the same TYPE of clothing.

Yes, you could probably find breeches and boots on some ship. But I want to see you climb rigging in those knee breeches and boots. Do make sure your safety line is fastened. That rapier may be a better steel and fancier than a cutlass, but it's useless in a deck melee. That fancy cocked hat will be overside in a 20 knot wind.

This is not aimed at the fantasy pirates. They know what they're doing and they have their reasons. This is aimed at those who want to be authentic but will use one-off references and stretched logic to attempt to justify something thatis not logical or practical. Whatever variances you make in the kit, if you claim to be authentic, what you are wearing has to be capable of letting you do your job on board.

As they say on the trekking board, "Dare to be Common'.

Hawkyns

[Desert Pyrate]

Agreed, Hawkyns.

A couple of things: swords, almost always, belonged to the ship. There's just NO reason to wear one around whilst aboard. They get in the way. Any excessive fabric/clothing/stuff gets in the way or gets caught up in something at a crucial moment. Proper shoes are vital. In fact, most tall ships that require period clothing say "except for footwear".

Hats: go with a watch cap, or a rag. Maybe a tricorn. A brimmed hat is acceptable for later periods, but tie it on!

Speaking of tying things on: one of the marks of a sailor is that everything that can seperate from them (fid, knife, etc) is tied on with a length of marline or seine twine (called a 'nip'). Speaking of fid/knife (colloquially called your 'rig'): you have to have one. There were no sailors who didn't carry them. Knives are above all, practical. They get the crap beat out of them, so remember that. Drop-point is popular to prevent accidental stabbings.

Personally, my kit is a waistcoat, a pair of slops, and a shirt. Add watchcap if it gets cold. Knife and marlinspike attached via lanyards. It just works better (and I say this from *knowing* what works better, having sailed 18th tall ships in a wide variety of gear; for months and months combined underway time).

[Deadeye]

A couple of things: swords, almost always, belonged to the ship. There's just NO reason to wear one around whilst aboard.

Agreed, but partially. I know in the Navy, the swords belonged to the ship, and were locked away unless preparing for combat to avoid mutiny. But several Pirate or privateer manifests (the one set forth by Bartholomew Robers is the one that comes to mind) state that all members are to keep their weapons clean and ready for battle at all times. Now obviously you couldn't wear one while working the ship, so was it that they keep their peice with their hammock or locked in a cabinet somewhere, or were they in fact part of the ships gear?

I tend to believe it was a little of both. depending on ship, captain, ect.

[hurricane]

Good points. I should have clarified that no one would take to wearing something that wasn't useful for their work. Perhaps for wearing ashore to attract the ladies. Exceptin' that if my shirt is in absolute tatters I may be open to having one less suitable in the interim, rather than burning up slowly in the tepid heat. It would more be a question of subtle variations of attire between countries and cultures.

For example, I may be a lowly seaman aboard a pirate ship but my luck of share may be a nicer cutlass, something that would be far nicer than the one I would normally have. And I did think that pirates kept their own weapons, that they weren't part of a ship's arms. I know from the Buccaneer references I've poured through lately that they owned their own weapons, both ashore and aboard ship. Of course, that was pre-GAoP.

I really can't imagine a sea-going pirate latching onto a tricorn to wear (or lose) aboard ship. They're aerodynimic enough, as long as you face into the wind. But again, it might be handy ashore when he's in the mood to go whorin' and wants to trade up from an average wharf rat.

While we're on the subject of weapons, were cutlasses common in 1650 or were rapiers more common? Working on a Captain Morgan kit and want to get as close to possible on what he would own and use, particularly since he was more of a soldier than a sailor and his legacy is on shore raids.

If that's off topic I can start a new post or reply elsewhere. Just popped into me mind.

-- Hurricane

[Deadeye]

While we're on the subject of weapons, were cutlasses common in 1650 or were rapiers more common?

From period pics i have seen, they had cutlasses or axes mostly. The Cutlass may not have been as "refined" as we know it, probably still in its "from-big-meat-cleaving-knife-to-sword" transition period. That would be my guess. Of course an Axe is period no matter what period you are reenacting, it just depends on what style you carry.

[Captain Jim]

Wonderful thread Gentlemen. By the way, where are the ladies? Oh, hell, another thread, and a dangerous one, too.

I agree with all of you. On board ship practicality would have been the driving force in clothing selection. If Navy garb is what you were used to and available, that is what you would most likely go with. Same as for weapons for boarding other ships…go with what works, only more so. As a ship became more successful, it would acquire more arms, be they divided among the crew or kept by the ship, so a pyrate is more likely to have multiple pistols of various makes, and cutlasses from various countries. And let us not forget that broken cutlasses were cut down to make seaborne mains gauche. Practicality, not individual taste, would have ruled at sea.

And what of individual taste? These Pyrates have thrown off the constraining mantle of convention. As an example, I give you Calico Jack Rackham. Or Edward Teach. Would the Pyrates serving under such not have tried to emulate them, to become as daring as their leaders?

Aye, but let us go ashore. In a Pyrate den such as Port Royal, would it not be better to be identified as a Pyrate than as a Royal Navy seaman? And as Hurricane said, when one is wenching, one must have one’s finest feathers on, to impress that you and your ship are successful and rich. And would you not have tried to emulate, no, parrot with greater or lesser success the styles of the upper class, whose clothing you purchased in port or stole from all of those ships that you have been raiding?

And of course there is the world traveler aspect. These Pyrates would have been exposed to all of the diversity of the exotic ports that they visited. Some of the culture (sometimes fungal) would have rubbed off on them. Hence, the keeping of parrots and monkeys, and the eating of exotic foods, the wearing of earrings and other adornments.

Lots of questions, all speculation until we get solid documentation, documentation that seems unlikely to surface at this late date. Although we see individuality in the GAoP through modern eyes, there was indeed individuality back then as well, even though it was not well documented.

[Hawkyns]

Sinclair sabre

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt...6lr%3D%26sa%3DN

or this pikeman's hanger

http://www.swordsmiths.co.uk/Data/Pages/17...17Century_8.htm

Hawkyns

[portagee]

Boa Noite

And if this sea man were to sew imself a new coat, when the one given im by the Royal Navy becomes worn, might he not use the old coat as a pattern to make is new coat? Keeping then the same sort of pattern but likely different cloth.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

I'll start with

I have a question... say you're out on account for some period of time. You raid a number of ships and part of the take is the crewe's clothing and personal possessions. Would you not trade in your tattered and torn shirt for one from a Spanish captive or victim's chest? Same with other clothing items.

This is a good point...and here is why.

A lot of pirate re-enactors justify the fantasy aspects of their kit by claiming that they liberated their silk velvet justaucorps, bucket boots, silk sash, and whatever the @#$%# else from one of their prizes.

Hurricane in his posts hits on more of the reality. Except for rare exceptions, during the GAoP, "prize" ships were mostly merchant vessels bringing various goods like lumber, sugar, tea, textiles etc. They were crewed with the minimum personel (to decrease the cost of shipping goods) which was a factor in surrendering the vessel when you were facing the possible 3 to 1 odds against a pirate ship.

Probably the most common clothing items to "liberate" were other sailors clothing... which would have been the utilitarian sailors clothing they were already wearing....

So, yes, if that sailors, shoes, shirt, jacket was better than mine, sure i'd take it. But what are the chances that the Royal Court is sending a delegation of 200 courtiers to the colonies, with trunks full of pre-made high class clothing? Wouldn't those folks be traveling on more heavily armed ships like Royal Navy vessels if they KNOW that there is a lot of pirate activity in the areas they are heading?

And, garments were largely made on site. Gucci was not shipping hundreds of coats and pants over to the colonies to sit on racks waiting for the upper class buyers to come to their stores.

Textiles were being shipped. They might intercept a merchantman with bolts of wool, silks, linens and they COULD be made into nicer clothing (by your handy tailor on board )....

But I expect that your common pirate looked at those goods as an opportunity to SELL them via the colonial black market to make Money. And spend that on liquor and women.

GoF

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Remember, I am 6 hours ahead of Eastern Standard Time so a lot happens on the forum while I am in slumber land and I feel like I have to catch up in the morning....

I gave the RN the best years of my life, dammit, and now look at me, an old salt, cashiered from the only job I knew. I will go to sea, and I will seek my revenge.

I believe it is plausible to say a disaffected population may adopt a particular style of dress.

While this may be a possiblitly, I think that it is not expressed correctly in the re-enactment communtiy. I see that a lot of what the body of pirate re-enacting does is done to justify their trip to the buffet of hollywood pirate knowledge.

I have read that pirates would wear their best clothing when boarding another vessel. But I think that what "best clothes" for a GAoP pirate was, and what we see at events are entirely two different things.

My question for the above quote is HOW?

You are going to seek revenge on modern society.... by dressing funny? Or are you seeking your revenge by attacking merchant vessel's and taking back what you believe to be owed to you by society?

My take is this, if pirates had their own way of dressing, we would read about it in the accounts left by the courts and by witnesses.

We are not finding accounts of "there be the pirates standing right thar... I know'd it was them because of the bucket boots and that cocade they be wearin' and that silk shirt with Spanish influence".

And what of individual taste? These Pyrates have thrown off the constraining mantle of convention. As an example, I give you Calico Jack Rackham. Or Edward Teach. Would the Pyrates serving under such not have tried to emulate them, to become as daring as their leaders?

Ok... I will give you the example of Black Beard from the 1734 engraving.

What is he wearing that marks him a pirate? Probably the most famous GAoP captain of all and if anyone would have first pick of captured clothing or if there is someone who would be dressing in the individualistic "pirate style" it would be him.

Also, history does not tell us that Black Beards crew all had beards with slow match or that when captured, they all dressed like Black Beard. I think that He was probably the exception, rather than the rule. But I will agree with you that his crew probably looked alot like him in the sense that they were probably wearing trouser style slops, a short jacket, and linen shirt with straight lasted buckeled or tied shoes....

Next up in our example fest is Bart Roberts from the 1724 History of Pirates

Probably one of the most flamboyant of Pirates and how does he dress? He is obviously trying to emulate a period Gentlemen. Where are the bucket boots, huge sash, rapier, fancy cockade we love so much?

Another Pirate captain known for more flamboyant dress is Jack Rackam

This is from 1726 Johnson and again they are depicted as emulating Genltemen's clothing of the time...

Where is the Spanish, French, Carribean influence? Piecrcings, tatoos and other Hollywood piratey things that we have come to believe represents the free wheeling spirit of the pirate lifestyle?

Aye, but let us go ashore. In a Pyrate den such as Port Royal, would it not be better to be identified as a Pyrate than as a Royal Navy seaman?

But there was no "uniform" to mark anyone as a Royal Navy sailor... there were only Sailors Clothes made available in places where sailors frequented and on ships. A typical Royal Navy sailor is dressing like all the other seamen because they won't get a UNIFORM till 1748 (? on the exact date). I agree that they were probably trying to look their best with their best clothes. But they probably were after women who cared more about how much coin they had, not how well their coat fit and what was made out of it.

But lastly, here is Anne Bonny

Now Ann was trying to disguise herself as a common sailor/pirate. So obviously, she would not want to be wearing anything that would draw attention to herself and I think that it would be safe for me to say she would be wearing "average" pirate clothing...

Short Jacket

Trousers

Shoes

Shirt

Hat

Weapons.....

All of these pictures and more can be viewed at Foxe's excellent Pirate Picture Gallery

GoF

[Gentleman of Fortune]

While we're on the subject of weapons, were cutlasses common in 1650 or were rapiers more common? Working on a Captain Morgan kit and want to get as close to possible on what he would own and use, particularly since he was more of a soldier than a sailor and his legacy is on shore raids.

1650 is a tough one..... Rapiers are at their end, small swords are justat the beginning, and our "modern" interpretation of a cutlass is over 100 years away.

Isn't there a museum down your way that claims to have Morgan's sword?

I think you need Old Dominion Forge!

Also, Swords & blades of the American Revolution will be a priceless resource for you as it covers swords dating back to 1600.

I don't think you could go wrong with smething like this though...

European Cutlass (Hanger) 1680 from Swords and Blades of the American Revolution

or this

English Hanger 1660-1690 from Swords and Blades of the American Revolution

Gof

[blackjohn]

I was prepared to continue the discussion. I'll even say I was looking forward to it. But the vague allegations of shoddy scholarship have soured it for me. So, I think I'm going overboard.

Btw, I believe swords have been beat to death in at least one thread elsewhere on this forum. It's probably best to not discuss them again in a thread about clothing.

[hurricane]

Thanks GoF...

I agree with you... pirates would look like anyone else of the time. When out in public I often make that case, saying a modern pirate would simply blend in with the mainstream. They wouldn't speak differently, dress differently or draw attention to themselves undoly. Their chronicled antics in port have occasionally been somewhat over the top, but that was more due to the amount of money they had and their state of drunkenness.

This has been a really great discussion and I appreciate everyone's points.

I didn't mean to drag swords into the discussion - just had an immediate thought on the subject for my own use. I'm sure somewhere down there they have Morgan's sword. I know that Noel Coward's estate still has one of Henry's houses on it with some cannon balls and a sword found on the property. Noel turned it into his bar.

Having read the many posts by GoF, Foxe, Hawkyns and blackjohn, I have learned much here. And I know that it's hard to change some people's view of the subject that has often been based on popular belief rather than actual research. Hey, I think I used to be one of those people... Hhm!

-- Hurricane

[JoshuaRed]

Ahhh I do love a good ol' GAOP Clothing debate! I'd just add "Less IS More"

[Captain Jim]

But lastly, here is Anne Bonny

Now Ann was trying to disguise herself as a common sailor/pirate. So obviously, she would not want to be wearing anything that would draw attention to herself and I think that it would be safe for me to say she would be wearing "average" pirate clothing...

Ah, yes, the famous picture of Anne Bonney. I do notice a couple of things (ahem) that are not standard navy issue, but come standard on wenches pyratical or otherwise. For someone trying to blend in she sure is "standing out."

[Sir Eric]

I was going to make that same comment Captain Jim.

A brief warning on engravings and such... none of those characters posed for those images, and it's likely the artists never saw the subjects of their art, especially when it comes to the "infamous" individuals who made headlines... except maybe on the way to court or the gallows, if at all.

Now... that doesn't mean they're totally inaccurate, but you're dealing with a period of history famous for romanticism, and Anne Bonny's ...err... "attributes" are pretty typical for that period of art.

I'm not saying the images aren't valuable as reasearch, just that they may not be absolutely faithful to reality. In fact, chances are that they lean towards more faniciful representations... so it's quite possible that the individuals portrayed looked even less piratey than they already ... dont?