Clothing Question

[JoshuaRed]

so it's quite possible that the individuals portrayed looked even less piratey than they already ... dont?

HA! LOL! I think you may just have culled the ultimate grain of truth from this whole topic.

[Rumba Rue]

This is a terrific thread!

I must say though, if a guy wants to wear a kilt or plaid and climb the rigging, looking up would take on a whole new meaning!

In the areas where the tempeture is in high or even triple digits, I don't think any guy is going to be wearing a heavy coat and similar clothes.

Having done events in that kind of weather, the guys strip off as much as they can without being too naked....(darn)

If one were sailing the English coast, I would suspect a heavy layer of clothing as the weather isn't usually in the triple digits most of the time.

It's a matter of adapting to the situation. I have no doubt that a Scotsman sailing in the Carribean would still have his sword or other pain inflicting weapons in his seabox (if he had one).

If I were to move to the east coast, I would have to adapt to a colder climate in the winter, than what is here on the west coast at the same time of year.

Adaption is the key.

[Fox]

Anne Bonney's boobs, if anything, go a long way to proving the point about the recording of the out-of-the-ordinary. It's pretty certain that Bonney and Read didn't go around with their bits and bobs hanging out (Rackham was apparently surprised when he found out Read's sex, and the rest of the crew didn't find out til later - either they were REALLY naive or Read kept em strapped up), but the artist included them to illustrate the shocking difference between Read and Bonney, and other seamen. It would be reasonable to expect then that other artists of the time (and bear in mind that quite a few of our favourite pirate pictures come from exactly the same source as the Bonney and Read pics) would follow suit - if they thought that pirates looked any different from other people of the time they would have drawn them different.

Point taken about individual pirates not posing for pictures, but that doesn't negate the authority of all the pictures as much as one might think. Many of the pictures we now have of GAoP period seamen (including pirates) were drawn by people well familiar with their subjects in general. While I wouldn't take the Rackham picture as proof that Rackham himself wore a feather in his hat I would take it as proof that some people, particularly coxcombs, did.

I've quite definitely got to agree with the stance that ASC spec clothing can be taken as representative of seaman's clothing of the time. Sure, not every pirate wore a grey shrunk kersey jacket, but it's a reasonable bet that a: a fair few of them did, and b: a lot of others wore very similar garments originating from other sources.

Similarly, I've tried to make the point before that although pirates certainly plundered clothing from captured ships one must seriously consider what that clothing would consist of before we all start using it as an excuse to dress as fine as we like. As GoF pointed out, the vast majority of pirate prizes were small merchantmen, crewed by common seamen in that same condition that the pirates had been in before they turned to piracy. Doubtless they ocasionally plundered ship with some fine clothes aboard (anyone care to remind us of the incident with Cocklyn and the wigs?), but for the most part they'd half exchanged their worn out seaman's jacket and slops for another set.

John, unfortunately I don't have the figures for other navies for the same period. I've been hoping to find the French at least for some time, but no joy yet.

Whispers: Hurricane, the first sword picture posted by GoF is almost identical to that shown in the Morgan engraving in Esquemelin

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Whispers: Hurricane, the first sword picture posted by GoF is almost identical to that shown in the Morgan engraving in Esquemelin

Hey Foxe,

Could you add that one to your Pirate Pictures page?

GoF

[Fox]

Let me re-phrase that, the pictures of Roche Brasiliano and Francois L'Ollonais from the 1684 edition of Esquemelin have those swords.

Unfortunately I can't add any more pictures to the online collection - blasted free server with an unadvertised time limit for posting pictures. I'm sort of working on finding somewhere new to host the pictures, I've got a few more to add.

[Crimson Cutlass]

Back to the original question here.

Do not wear a Glengarry. A bonnet is more appropriate and was widely worn even by non scottish seaman. It kept the head and ears warm in bad weather.

Glengarry did not come about until 1815 or so and was requested for the scotts in the british army by one of the Queens. Elizabeth I i think.

Any way You would be way out of history for the 1600 - 1700 time period Go with the Bonnet or Workmans cap, or Liberty type sock cap.

I am with the 42nd Black watch highlanders Rev War reenactment group - 1770-1780-s We wear old style bonnets and newer Kilmarnock style bonnets - diced and pill box shaped.

[Captain Midnight]

I would think that out of the head gears you mention, the simple, un-shaped bonnet would be the more likely choice for a Scottish sailor (assuming he chose to wear a head gear native to his own country). The stocking hat or Monmouth cap would be a good choice as well.

[Deadeye]

I am with the 42nd Black watch highlanders Rev War reenactment group - 1770-1780-s We wear old style bonnets and newer Kilmarnock style bonnets - diced and pill box shaped.

Thanks Lads.

Another Question i had was about shirts. I have seen references to 3/4 sleeve shirts, i think some sutlers even sell them. Is this a Early 18th century Item or did it occur earlier or Later? It would seem more practical for life on ship as the cuffs wouldnt get in the way, but would it be considered appropriate on shore?

[Slopmaker Cripps]

Deadeye,

The earliest 3/4 length sleeved shirts I have found reference to are 19th century sailors undershirts. A lot of the guys who do Civil War navy wear them. I have yet to see anything about 3/4 length shirt sleeves in the 17th or 18th century, though if someone has the primary sources, I am very interested in seeing them.

Cheers,

Adam

[kass]

Well that explains why I've never heard of them, Adam! My interest stops at the 1780s. I've studied alot of shirts, but the only ones without wrist-length sleeves have been women's.

I should add that I'm not up on military supply contracts from the 17th and 18th centuries and don't know what they might hold. I'm sure Foxe will tell us if they do.

Deadeye, you see a lot of pictures of 17th and 18th century sailors where their shirts obviously have wrist-length sleeves. These don't get in your way when working -- the cuffs are narrow.

Kass

[Slopmaker Cripps]

The ASC's are for full length sleeves. And Kass is right, they are no problem when working. I've worn them with the sleeves down, and sometimes rolled up (it gets pretty darn hot down here) and either way you have the same amount of movement in the arms. Also note that I'm usually rowing, pulling on the lines, etc. while shipboard since I'm not physically suited to be a topman. On shore, however, I do just about every kind of work with no problems in regard to the sleeves. Just my experience, and as mentioned before, everything points to long sleeves being the only option. Besides, it makes common sense. If you're hot, then roll them up. But a short sleeve shirt wouldn't serve you well when it's cold. It's good to just have the option.

Cheers,

Adam

[Deadeye]

Deadeye, you see a lot of pictures of 17th and 18th century sailors where their shirts obviously have wrist-length sleeves. These don't get in your way when working -- the cuffs are narrow.

Very true, i had just seen some pictures, but they didnt list a time frame, so I was curious is they OUR period. I wook all day long in long sleeve Coveralls, so i know its not a problem, just a curiosity.

If you're hot, then roll them up. But a short sleeve shirt wouldn't serve you well when it's cold. It's good to just have the option.

That what i do every day! Us modern Sailors only have 2 short sleeve uniforms, and unfortunatly, the ones we wear the most, Our Cover-alls, are long sleeve. I personally hate long sleeves, so I guess i was a little excited to find a possible loophole..

[Fox]

Never come across 3/4 length sleeves in the 17th or 18th century. Bear in mind that, as Kass says, the cuffs were narrow, we're not talking Errol Flynn style baggy "pirate" shirts, and if the cuffs really were in the way any time you'd just roll them up.

[cavalier_pyrate]

this topic is very interesting, last month i went to an SCA event and had just gone through my garb chest and threw my kit together , from some i got compements and others complaints, saying you cant mix those fashoins together, i was protraying a (down on his luck conquistador) that weekend, i was wearing slops made from old bed ticking, black socks and shoes, a cavalier style slash and puff doublet, a torn and dirty cavalier shirt w/ french cuffs , a beat up looking breast plate and a morion style helmet,

anyway i was wondering what year did cutlasses come into play?

[Fox]

Define cutlasses.

"Cutlass" is really just a familiar name for a type of sword which might equally be called a falchion, hanger, or one of many other names. People in the 16-18th centuries weren't so hung up on definitions as we are.

If we take a cutlass to be a short, relatively heavy, single edged cutting sword then it has its origins in the medieval falchion of the 13th century, and remained in use until the dcline of swords.

[Monterey Jack]

If we take a cutlass to be a short, relatively heavy, single edged cutting sword then it has its origins in the medieval falchion of the 13th century, and remained in use until the dcline of swords.

True; the only real question comes when you are trying to match a particular hilt / guard to a specific decade or ethnic region within the realm of GaoP. You can range in generic style from the falchion bladed hangers of the 1650s to 1690s, thru the infantry hangers of France and Britain in the 1700s (or my favourites, the double discs of the American Rev cutlasses)up to the 1820s French hilt that resembles the Ames 1860, though by then you're out of the clasic period.

Looking at the various hilts in Gilkerson, it appears the designs varied not only from country to country, but maker to maker, often changing in less than a decades time. Even the blades from the same maker were curved on some and straight on others. The nice thing is, that it leaves a lot open to characterizational interpretation.

[blackjohn]

and remained in use until the dcline of swords.

And beyond, apparently. Have you ever read the one about the SeaBee in the Korean War who used his cutlass against some North Koreans? It's in Boarders Away, I believe.

[Patrick Hand]

probably scaried the zipheads to sh**.................. sorry I worked in Pan Mun Jom..... Don't like the north koreans............... (the South Koreans were kinda cool...) (espesially the ROK Rangers........................)

[Deadeye]

Have you ever read the one about the SeaBee in the Korean War who used his cutlass against some North Koreans? It's in Boarders Away, I believe

That really sounds like somthing a SeeBee would do.

I roomed with one when I lived in the Barracks here on base, and MAN those guys are more nuts than SEALS!