In Defense of the Authenticity Nazis

[TalesOfTheSevenSeas]

Much appreciated Baptiste.

-"The Bucketeering Wench"

[redhand]

I'll pipe in on this thread, since I probably fall into the

"thread counter" catagory.

First off I'd like to see the term "Autheticity Nazi" tossed out,

it's over as well as misused.

A NAZI is/was a facist assh*le, resposible for hate crimes

and the ethnic/cultural cleansing of European peoples.

I've certainly been accused of being elitist simply because I

choose to have my clothing made from period cloth and hand sewn.

(as much as budget allows-LOL!). In fact I've left several groups

simply becuase there was so much friction created by individuals

who seemed threatened by our own interest in re-creating our kit

by using period threads, cloth & hand sewing our garmets.

My interest level may not be YOUR interest level...and that's fine,

but we shouldn't be pusecuted simply because I enjoy hand sewn garmets,

just the same as If Bob or Susie want to make & wear tie dyed frock coats made

from an old tux coat they bought from goodwill...super, enjoy & have fun!

It doesn't bother me, you get out of this hobby what you put into it,

like anything else in life. You must make it enjoyable for yourself to pursue,

otherwise what's the point?

Ultimately our hobby is the pursuit of FANTASY, not reality,

even those of us are reguarded as thread counters, realize

that total re-creation of a time period is ultimately impossible.

The more I learn about a time period the more I realize how little

I know . I enjoy my pursuit of historical knowlege and recreating

an authentic period costume or kit, and the next guy may get

the same from putting together a total fantasy pirate outfit-

there's the beauty of the hobby!

We're lucky in this regard, that our piratical venue allows for such a

diverse range of time period and authenticity levels, much more so

than other historical clubs, time periods or venues.

Maria said it well, there are many time periods to cover here

and certainly room for all. Whether you're just starting out,

into the fantasy aspect, a progressive hardcore living historian,

or somewhere in between. In the immortal words of Rodney King...

"Can't we all just get along?"

BTW- Baptiste... No need to apologize as far as I could see,

you asked a simple and interesting question.

Cheers!

Redhand

[TalesOfTheSevenSeas]

I think the objections made are not about wearing historically accurate clothing and gear. Many of us are avid artifact collectors as well as reenactors. I've got parts of my clothing that are hundreds of years old. I think it is agreed that we all love and appreciate history!

The objection is when people misuse history to belittle others, make criticisms and become arrogant. We are all students and we are all teachers. Lessons are best learned when delivered with kindness. The trick is to learn how to share what you know with someone so that they appreciate it and are inspired to learn more! If they feel like the just got raked over the coals they are not encouraged, but discouraged.

Been there done that... I used to have to keep kleenex in my classroom because my technique was making my drafting students cry! I've learned since how to encourage and support them as they learn and to let them know that it is usual and expected to go through some growing pains.

[Red Maria]

I've certainly been accused of being elitist simply because I

choose to have my clothing made from period cloth and hand sewn.

(as much as budget allows-LOL!). In fact I've left several groups

simply becuase there was so much friction created by individuals

who seemed threatened by our own interest in re-creating our kit

by using period threads, cloth & hand sewing our garmets.

Ultimately our hobby is the pursuit of FANTASY, not reality,

even those of us are reguarded as thread counters, realize

that total re-creation of a time period is ultimately impossible.

The more I learn about a time period the more I realize how little

I diverse range of time period and authenticity levels, much more so

than other historical clubs, time periods or venues.

Maria said it well, there are many time periods to cover here

and certainly room for all. Whether you're just starting out,

into the fantasy aspect, a progressive hardcore living historian,

or somewhere in between. In the immortal words of Rodney King...

"Can't we all just get along?"

BTW- Baptiste... No need to apologize as far as I could see,

you asked a simple and interesting question.

Cheers!

Redhand

Thanks Redhand

The prize for authencity goes really to the guys from Hampton Court (kitchens)who were here the library I work at in June. They brought over some Elizabethan artifacts and reproductions made from them to give a informal lecture to the readers and staff. Among them was a period jerkin which if it wasn't so new I swear was from that era. I asked about it and they said the wool that it was made of was hand shorn with period made (hand forged) shears the carded, spun dyed in period manner. The needles used were hand made accroding to 16th c. fashion, and it was hand sewn with hand spun thread. I didn't notice the button hole but there were any I bet they were hand sewn Baptiste. ;-)

It was custom made (remember this is before ready-to-wear). and was very tailored. I have a picture at home of the two gents insitu at the Hampton Court kitchens.

Now that's authenicity!

[Capt. Flint]

You couldn't have said it better TalesoftheSevenSeas....

It isn't a problem to wear hand spun wool and to be as authentic and historically acurate as possible. Not a single person griped about that. It is a problem when you want to judge and critisize another without knowing the reason they are attired as they are. It can be due to budget, help or lack there of in getting thier garb made, or the simple fact that they may be playing more fantasy than reality. So just deal with it. It is even a bigger issue when you want to jump on a board such as this and not just voice your opinion, but, lash out at people who you don't know and jump on thier case without even seeing how they are. We chat, share ideas and opinions and give out info that others might enjoy seeing. There is no anamosity here and it needs to stay that way.

The Capt.

[the Royaliste]

my position all along,Flint..'Ave another, on me..

[LadyAtropos]

First off I'd like to see the term "Autheticity Nazi" tossed out,

it's over as well as misused.

A NAZI is/was a facist assh*le, resposible for hate crimes

and the ethnic/cultural cleansing of European peoples.

I find meself agreein' with RedHand 'ere...the term "Nazi" is not only overstatement, but unsensitive...sure, even if it's used in good spirit, it is rather damning..it seems like we should at least be findin' a new way to refer to costume mopes, if we must.

However, I do agree with those who say ter let those who wish ter be fantasy pyrates do their thing as they want to...after all, who's ta say that a bloke wot puts together a really spiffy, interesting and fun fantasy pyrate costume works any less hard than those who search around fer just the right historical fabrics, etc? If they still be sewin' and searchin' for the elements ta make it come together perfectly, an' pull off a really convincin' Capt'n Hook, why scorn them if they just be lookin' fer fun? Live and let live!

Thar be me piece.

LA

[TalesOfTheSevenSeas]

Ah me dearies.... therein lies a quandry, what is in fact and what is fantasy?

Check out some of the works written by Dr. David Cordingly (Under the Black Flag and other titles). According to an article that came out in a magazine for young adults about a year ago (struggling to recall the name of the magazine and will post it if I can remember) Cordingly specifically addressed the issue of weather the Captain Hook look was historically accurate and stated that in fact, pirates often wore that look to emulate wealthy merchants when they went ashore. There is also historic documentation describing what Bartholomew Roberts wore when he went into his last battle- a crimson waistcoat, a huge diamond cross, a large read plume in his hat etc.

So you see... Some level of Captain Hook costuming really IS in fact historically accurate. That is one of the frustrations of choosing to go with the elaborate "pirate while ashore" costuming- everyone thinks it's fiction because it is so gaudy.

*leaps up on to a hogshead o' rum and hollers loudly*

So pirates wear yer damask waistcoat with pride! Put plumes in yer hat!! Get those killer pirate boots on Ebay! Pull on yer velvet frock coat and parade yerself like the piratical plunderin' peacock that ye' are!!! Turn loose yer inner pirate on the world!!! ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!

(all of the above is intended with good will and sprinkled with twisted humor!!)

[Red Maria]

Ah me dearies.... therein lies a quandry, what is in fact and what is fantasy?

<snipe>Cordingly specifically addressed the issue of weather the Captain Hook look was historically accurate and stated that in fact, pirates often wore that look to emulate wealthy merchants when they went ashore. <snipe>

So you see... Some level of Captain Hook costuming really IS in fact historically accurate. That is one of the frustrations of choosing to go with the elaborate "pirate while ashore" costuming- everyone thinks it's fiction because it is so gaudy.

*leaps up on to a hogshead o' rum and hollers loudly*

So pirates wear yer damask waistcoat with pride! Put plumes in yer hat!! Get those killer pirate boots on Ebay! Pull on yer velvet frock coat and parade yerself like the piratical plunderin' peacock that ye' are!!! Turn loose yer inner pirate on the world!!! ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!

(all of the above is intended with good will and sprinkled with twisted humor!!)

Add to the above that a pirate oftern wore his/her booty which may have included items of very fine clothing or textiles. Even to the point were the fine clothing turned to rags. Also remember these are people who didn't give a rat's ass about sumputary laws! Who traveled sometimes vast distances and operated in various theatres of action.

If I remember correctly Kidd's Quedah Merchant was loaded with costly silks and brocades.

[Cascabel]

A thought or two on the subject.......

We need to not lose sight of the fact that the reason for the very existence of these festival type events is ENTERTAINMENT for the public. The people attend these things for the purpose of their children and themselves being entertained, and they expect to see a version of what they think a pirate is.

The picture that they expect is generally a Hollywood type of pirate with a certain amount of flash and panache. Pretty much what might be seen in a safe pirate haven like Port Royal, where them that had the fancy duds would feel comfortable wearing some of it, and not mind drawing attention to themselves.

In reality, real pirates dressed for working aboard ship would be about as interesting to see as a crew of modern day construction laborers hanging around on lunch break. Sort of sweaty and grungy looking, but not something to keep your attention.

I firmly believe that 100% authenticity has it's place at historic sites and museums, but festivals are about entertainment, and if the public has a good time, they will return next year and the event will survive.

I think that a certain amount of "living history" is a good thing, but there needs to be a heavy emphasis on entertainment for a successful event

>>>>>>> Cascabel

[Rosalinda]

about as interesting to see as a crew of modern day construction laborers hanging around on lunch break. Sort of sweaty and grungy looking, but not something to keep your attention.

Ahem, well, uh, that's not necessarily true...

[Mad Kestrel]

about as interesting to see as a crew of modern day construction laborers hanging around on lunch break.  Sort of sweaty and grungy looking, but not something to keep your attention.

Ahem, well, uh, that's not necessarily true...

I recall a spring, not so long ago... I was working in a preschool, and the building right next to our playground was having a new roof put on. Morning recess was about 10 am, and while the children were playing, we, the teachers, entertained ourselves by taking surreptitious glances at the two very tan, very gorgeous, very shirtless fellows working high above us.

Sweaty? Yep.

Grungy? Indeed.

Attention grabbing? Beyond measure!

[the Royaliste]

:) As an Ironworker in my 'day job', when we are erecting high rises, there's quite an interplay between the folks in the buildings adjacent as we climb ever higher....usually invite the 'livelier' citizens to our 'topping out' party...200 year old tradition still practiced by men of steel on the finished roofline....some fine young buff stuff way up high...

[Dorian Lasseter]

Aye Royaliste,

Do ye be talkin' about sorta a "mile high club" type o' thing?

[Rosalinda]

There's nothing better in the world than watching a man work...

[TalesOfTheSevenSeas]

Aye Rosalinda! Men look right fine when they be bent in labor a-scrubbin' me linoleum or washing me windows or doin' me laundry, or...

(better hush before Saber keelhauls me, eh?!!)

OK Royaliste... we all be a waitin' fer yer "mile high club" tales with bated breath!!

[the Royaliste]

They'ere soooo good las, we'll keep 'em fer on deck, specially the one about the Stratosphere tower in Vegas....that 'ns7 years old and aint cooled enough to laugh at!!!

[Omega]

Ahhh, authenticity, a subject close to me black heart....

In our group, we use all natural fibres, our hems are hand sewn and we don't wear anything that isn't documentable.

That said a HELL of a lot is documentable for this era!! I think it is one of the easiest periods to re-enact accurately.

I don't think being accurate diminishes the entertainment or fun factor of a group - quite the opposite in fact.

Yeah, I've been called an authenticity nazi - I choose to take it as a compliment!

I think the key is to let people do what they want though - in our group, we've decided that accuracy is the way to go.. but if that's not what floats someone else's boat, so be it.. live and let live!

It's a big ocean, isn't there room for everyone? Trying to enforce your standards on another group just makes you an asshole, IMNSHO.

[the Royaliste]

:) Nods in agreement with most...."Aye!..'Tis a wide ocean, for sure!....Sadly, all too many try and force their opinions anyway, continually opening the debate anew.......As this is a contstantly rehashed issue as we do reenactments and ship's greetings, we of my Ship's crew have decided on our own 'course', if you will,...Namely, "FUN NATZIES!!! ...We will stick to our guns to ensure everyone, 'authentic' or 'not', has a rollickily good time!!!...RRR!!"

[Barbados Jack]

While I'm very new to going on the account, I am not new to reenacting. I spent twelve years doing an American civil war impression. I recall the often violent discussion of the pure and those that just didn't know any better, and i found that those that are the most boistrous and critical are usually the ones that have read only one source for their information and do not yet understand the attempt of authors to represent their opinion as they only source of true history.

I have found that people attempting to learn the history behind their impression are better dealt with in a compassionate and learning environment. No one likes to be chastized, especially by an arrogant stranger, for what they've worked very hard to do. Education and guidance are the key to having a successful reenactment group.

I'm sure that I will make several mistakes along the way in my attempt to authentically portray the brotherhood, and may even fall flat on my face. But I will try to be as authentic as my sources teach me and my pocketbook allow. Hopefully this reenactment community will be patient with me and a few knowledgable souls will help me along the way.

Just one "newbie's "opinion

Jack

[Nigel]

Besides...being a Pyrate is not sayin' that ye arrrr...It's more of a Feeling...You just know yer one at heart!!!

To quote Hurricane:

"Some people were pirates all along, and just haven't discovered it yet."

[Nigel]

A thought or two on the subject.......

"...the reason for the very existence of these festival type events is ENTERTAINMENT for the public. The people attend these things for the purpose of their children and themselves being entertained, and they expect to see a version of what they think a pirate is. "

"...festivals are about entertainment, and if the public has a good time, they will return next year and the event will survive."

"...there needs to be a heavy emphasis on entertainment for a successful event"

>>>>>>> Cascabel

Well said, Cascabel.

The more interesting the experience is for the public, the more likely the venue will continue.

Different folks enjoy various aspects of pirating, from complete history buffs to those who just want to drink rum and shout "Arrrgh!" and everything in between.

Look at the big picture. I believe we can all cooperate to augment each other, and enhance the experience for everyone. It worked for me in Key West.

[capnwilliam]

Then again, Jack, there's a world of difference between American Civil War reenacting, and pirate reenacting. In the former, you are a member of a specific unit that had and did certain documented things in certain documented places. Pirates run the gamut of time and place and while one should not, e.g., incorporate blatant chronological anachronisms, who can categorically say that a pirate would not have worn or used a given thing; so long as it existed in the historical era he's depicting.

Pirates had access to all things shipped by sea, and that was and is just about everything! :)

Capt. William

[Barbados Jack]

Thank ye Capt'n;

You make a very valid point that I hadn't considered. I will definitely keep that in mind as I attempt tp build my impression.

[hitman]

Here is a thought..... for the ladies.... and a damn fine joke for everyone else even if I do say so myself. Lets take an example of authenticity nazi posted earlier.."a tankayard full of pepsi and wearing raybans" now picture this person at your next gathering....he and his group of hangers on(what fun is being a authenticity nazi if no one is around to hear you whine?) As our group of misfit walks around harranging one person or another they come across a woman dressed in the makeup and attire of a gesha. Now picture all the fun you'll have knowing this person is actually potraying the most feared pirate of all time... Cheng Sao. In and around the year of 1810 she led a fleet of over 1000 vessels. She was so powerful in fact that for many years the Royal navy refused to engage her and British mariniers had to pay for thier security in the south china sea. Just thought a few of you lasses might get a kick out of that,and yes I know gesha is a Japanese term and that Sao was chinese but hey I'm trying to convay an image here. Now as some of you will note this situation fits in with what appears to be the concinsous here be as authentic as you can but still have FUN!!! And whats more fun than messin with the minds of your lessers hey