handcuffs and leg irons

[cavalier_pyrate]

well i am wondering when the rating of master at arms originated, i know that it originally was the gunner or a crew member who was incharge of maintaing weapons, but when did ity become like a lawman at sea? and was there any on board merchant or pirate ships?

[cavalier_pyrate]

oh yeah i almost forgot, im looking to find me a pair of period handcuffs and leg irons, i want to add these to my collection and perhaps add them as a display item at events (im in law enforcement an want to sorta combine my mundane side and my sca side together somewhat)

[Captain_MacNamara]

ahhh... SCA eh? From Trimaris, I take it? Do you attend Gulf Wars?

And are you looking for this kind?:

Shackles

This is the best price on shackles I have found. I have a pair of these myself.

Leg Irons

Leg irons are a bit harder to find.

[cavalier_pyrate]

aye i sail the waters of trimaris........and gulf wars this year i wont be able to make, i dont graduate the academy till august , will be going to pensic though

id like to find a set of both

[Captain_MacNamara]

ahhh, tis a shame... Gulf War is *the* event for me.

as fer the irons... both are up for grabs on ebay... that's where I get 90% of my small stuff

and I used to be a reserve patrol officer... now I'm going for my PI license

[cavalier_pyrate]

i also keep my eyes on ebay, sometimes you find the most unique stuff, well as for my future career, im hoping to go mounted patrol

[Fox]

What ho,

the earliest reference I've found to a Master-at-Arms in the Royal Navy was 1700 when the title appears on the pay lists for the first time. However, at the same time the "Corporal" disappears from the pay lists and since they did much the same job I'm inclined to think that the Master at Arms replaced the Corporal. The Corporal was first added to navy pay lists in 1588. I've not come across any reference to merchant or pirate ships carrying Masters-at-Arms or Corporals.

[cavalier_pyrate]

the earliest reference I've found to a Master-at-Arms in the Royal Navy was 1700 when the title appears on the pay lists for the first time. However, at the same time the "Corporal" disappears from the pay lists and since they did much the same job I'm inclined to think that the Master at Arms replaced the Corporal. The Corporal was first added to navy pay lists in 1588. I've not come across any reference to merchant or pirate ships carrying Masters-at-Arms or Corporals

now would a corporal be a royal navyman or a royal marine? and while where on a simular topic , ive done a lot of researching on the post of the ships purser, and am surprised to find such a large variation, from some sources the purser was a non paid and lowly position and others (ie purser on an east indiaman were wardroom officers) ive sorta been modelig my persona off of a officer from around the 1630s he was the ships purser who was also acting like a master at arms would (kept and maintaied weapons, was the small arms instrutor and kepted a log of prisoners and there violations,

[Fox]

The Corporal was a Navy officer in the terms we're discussing. The Royal Marines didn't exist until 1664 and had a very turbulent history for their first half century or so. It is entirely possible that the fixed establishment of Marines on ships was one of the reasons the Corporal was dropped as a naval officer.

As far as my research goes I believe pursers enjoyed varying status from ship to ship. In the cases where they were unpaid it was because they were expected to make a profit, and this chasing of filthy lucre led to purser being despised wherever they went.

"The Sailor's Complaint: or the true character of a purser of a ship" ballad from the first half ot he 17th century.

Of all the curst plague that e’er fate did decree

To vex, plague, and punish poor sailors at sea

There’s none to compare to the Purser, that evil

Who’s worse than a jailor, a bum, or a devil.

Sure when he was framed Dame Nature lay dying,

Hell then took a purge, Hell then took a purge,

And Pluto sends him flying.

As his name foully stink, so his --- --- --- doth smell

Been hateful to sailors, feared good enough for hell

The Nation allows Men what things to eat

But he, curses send him, gives us mutty meat

With Biscuit that’s moldy and hard stinking cheese

And Pork fat in pounds, and pork fat in pounds

<last line illegible>

Verse 3 completely illegible

His Oat-meal or Grout, known by the name Burgoo

Is fitting for nothing but to make sailors spew

His Brins no better than common kitchen-grease

The sailors are fear’d to eat with those pease

Such beef-fat --- we constantly use

That’s but fit for the mast, that’s but fit for the mast

Or the greasing our shoes.

When a sailor --- --- to m--- of his store

He then must expect to be miserable poor

For consider what --- --- --- we do pay

He has treble worth of each man, I dare say

Such dealing as these are not just I’m sure

Yet such hardships as these, yet such hardships as these,

We daily endure.

Now since he’s so friendly, I’d give, as ‘tis due

By way of requitat, a kind wish or two

And first may his brandy run all o’er the deck

And he end his days in a rope with aking neck

Or may he still eat, and be never satisfy’d

Still craving of more, still craving of more

And never be cloy’d

And may he have nothing to drink all the year

When drought shall attend him, but Petty-warrant beer

May fate ne’er allow him a candle to his cabin

And being the dark, by Old Nick taken napping

And by him, or his Agents, be bore swift away

To plague, vex and punish, to plague, vex and punish

For ever and aye.

May Charon be careful and ferry him o’re

To Pluto’s grand court on the Stygian shoar

May ten thousand furies still on him attend

To plague and torment him unto the world’s end

While each jolly sailor, to make themselves merry

Shall take a full glass, shall take a full glass

To his passage o’re the Ferry.

Now tell me THAT wasn't written by a seaman!

[Patrick Hand]

The Royal Marines didn't exist until 1664

I read that the Royal Marines didn't officialy exist until 1733 or 1755 (I will have to find the passage again...unfortunatly I don't have many good reference books, so I'm stuck with "The Wooden World An Anatomy of the Georgian Navy" a bit later time period but as close as I've been able to find so far....) Prior to that time the Navy just used regular infantry as marines......

I'm trying to find good information on the infantry from about 1669 for my Persona.... (thats why the passage about the Royal Marines caught my attention, )

[hitman]

This may help with the Royal marine ?

http://www.royal-marines.mod.uk/static/pages/2215.html

[Fox]

A Potted History of the Royal Marines to 1755:

1664 - The Duke of York and Albany's (Lord Admiral's) Maritime Regiment of Foot is formed, consisting of 1,200 men and officers, "to be distributed into His Majesty's Fleets".

1665 - Marines served at Battle of Lowestoft

1666 - Marines served at Four Days' Battle and Holmes' Bonfire

1672-4 - Marines serve in Battles of Schooneveldt and Texel in Third Dutch War.

1676 - Marines serve in Virginia against the Bacon Rebellion

1680 Marines serve at Tangier

1685 - Duke of York becomes James II, regiment renamed Prince George of Denmark's Maritime Regiment of Foot

1688 - Marines stationed around the South East coast to resist expected Dutch invasion.

1689 - Marines disbanded

1690 - 1st and 2nd Marine Regiments formed under the command of the Earls of Torrington (1st) and Pembroke (2nd). Marines serve at Battle of Beachy Head

1692 - Marines serve at Barfleur and La Hogue

1698 - 1st and 2nd Marines amaglmated into single regiment with the title 1st regiment of Marines. Colt's, Seymour's and Mordaunt's Regiments of foot redesignated 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Marines.

1699 - All four Marine regiments disbanded

1702 - 6 regiments of Marines and 6 "Regiments for Sea-service" formed

1703 - 4th Marine regiment redesignated as foot regiment, Seymour's Regiment of foot redesignated as Marines. Seymour considered Brigadier of Marines.

1704 - Marines and RN take Gibraltar, giving the Marines their famous cap badge slogan and making Gibraltar a British dependency (which it still is).

1713 - Marines disbanded, Treaty of Utrecht

1739 - 6 regiments of Marines re-formed. Governor Spottiswoode, former governor of Virginia raises 4 Battalions of Marines from New York.

1741 - 4 more regiments of Marines formed

1748 - Marine regiments disbanded

1755 - 50 companies of Marines formed and split into 3 "grand divisions". From this time on there have always been Marines in the British Navy.

So, if you'd read that the Marines didn't have an unbroken history before 1755 that would be right, but they certainly did exist prior to that date. They didn't become "Royal" Marines until 1802, though the Duke of York and Prince George of Denmark were both members of the Royal family, and Seymour's regiment had previously been the Queen Dowager's.

[cavalier_pyrate]

foxe,

well as i asked before about the role of a corporal /master at arms and purser, i am wonder, if there are any sources which give detailed information on the role of these paticular roles during the time of the armada, i have tried most of the internet search engines and found there to be very little info during these times , and second what social class were the people who preformed these jobs from?

[Fox]

I can't think of any books off the top of my head dealing particularly with pursers and corporals of that period, but NAM Rodger's "Safeguard of the Seas" would be an excellent starting point. Although the book cover an enormous period of 660-1649 around half of it is actually about the 16th century and the social history chapters are second to none. It's available on this page of Amazon

On the topic of Corporals Butler says:

"His charge is to take all the small shot belonging to the ship as muskets, carbines, pistols and the like, as also the swords and to keep them all fixed and in point. He is upon the times appointed by the Captain, to excercise all such of the ship's company as are assigned to ply their muskets in a fight, and to see that all their bandoleers be filled with good and dry powder and provided with bullets and their proportions of match delivered unto them. And upon all occasions of service, he is to be with them and to keep them in order and action.

...Though this be but a late introduced officer in a ship yet it is a necessary one, and especially to the perfecting of the practice of the fiery weapons. And withal it may lead, in a fit way, towards the making of a lieutenant; and therefore I shall advise at sea, that these Corporals might be gentlemen; nor is there any cause why a gentleman should scorn the place."

Butler was writing in the 1630s and 40s, but had probably been at sea since the beginning of the century. Although he says that Corporals were a late addition to ships they had been included in pay lists as early as 1588 (as I noted earlier). On Pursers Butler says:

"The office and peculiar part of the Purser is to recieve the full quantity...of all kinds of victual, for the food of the ship's company, from the hand of the Victualler of the Navy. He is to look diligently that it be every way well conditioned, and well put up. ... He is also to take the list and catalogue of the names of all the men and boys of the ship's company...so at the welcome day of pay, the general Pay Master, or Treasurer of the Navy, may issue his disbursements, and pay by the Purser's book.

This officer therefore ought to be both of integrity and ability; for unless the Captain .. look well to him in the point of having his company full... this purser may purse up roundly for himself, and that without all possibility of discovery."

That the pursers often did "purse up roundly for himself" is evident from the ballad I posted above, which is more or less contemporary with Butler. For his description of the purser's duties Butler seems to have cribbed a great deal from the writings of Sir William Monson. Monson was an Admiral in the 17th century, but had served as a captain in Elizabeth's reign and had been in the fleet in 1588. I've written out Butler's version because it's shorter than Monson's, but says the same things (more or less). Monson describes the duties of a Corporal thus:

"The Corporal is to see the soldiers and sailors keep their arms neat, clean, and yare {smart}, and to teach and exercise them every calm day, sometimes with shot, and sometimes with false fires. In a fight he is to have an eye over the rest of the shot, that they do their parts and not to start from the place they are assigned.

So long as the fight shall last he is to put some budge barrels of powder in the galley {almost certainly "gallery"}, or some close cabin, whither people may resort to have their bandoliers filled and their bullets and match supplied; with a special care that no matches with fire come near the said galley or cabin."

Both Monson and Butler assign the duties of lawkeeper to the boatswain:

Monson:

"The boatswain serves for a provost-marshal to commit all offenders"

Butler:

"...{the boatswain} is (in the nature of a Provost Marshal at land) to see all offenders punctually punished, either at the capstan, or by being put in the bilboes, or with ducking at the main yard arm;"

Hope it helps,

[Fox]

Patrick,

I meant to ask; what sort of information are you looking for re. 1669 infantry?

And Wooden World is the best book available on the mid 18th century navy IMHO.

[cavalier_pyrate]

yes thank you, the ballad you posted before was quite interesting and is unmistakably written by a sailor. im going to take a look at the "Safeguard of the Seas"

so the boatswain was the lawkeeper, thats a new one for me.... well it seems that it was porblaby preformed by the person most qualified, ive even read somewhere that the QM on a pirate ship held the role of lawkeeper.....wether this is true or not im am nort sure.....but anyway thanks for the info, ......heres yer grog ration for the day ..... .....ring's the ship's bell

[cavalier_pyrate]

buy the way ... the reason i was asking so much about who preformed the role of law keeper is im putting together a display of period shackles and other period gaoler equipment and would feel pretty dumb proterying a lawmen of the sea and using the wrong rank or title....you know

well thanks again

[Fox]

I think if you're looking to portray a lawkeeper aboard a ship of 1588-1630 then definitely Boatswain is the title for you. Of course, boatswains had MANY more duties besides the lawkeeping - in fact Monson says:

"...and to conclude {the boatswain's} and his mate's work is never at an end, for it is impossible to repeat all the offices that are put upon them."

The role of quartermasters on pirate ships is one I have taken an especial interest in recently, see this page of my website.

[Rogue Mermaid]

hand cuffs and leg irons! Now we're talking my kinda fun!

Oh..you guys are talking about garb.......

[cavalier_pyrate]

hand cuffs and leg irons! Now we're talking my kinda fun!

Oh..you guys are talking about garb.......

............they have many purpose's....my dear

[cavalier_pyrate]

foxe,

thanks , and too be honest i had been told by a fellow SCAer that i should look into developing my persona as a boatswain, but went off looking everywhere else, anyway thanks , and ill take a look at yer site, ........by the way are you still the curator of the bonaventure?

[Patrick Hand]

I meant to ask; what sort of information are you looking for re. 1669 infantry?

What I'd read was that there wern't any "Royal Marines" as a specific/ official group.... Marines were Infantry that were used abord ship.....

I cut and pasted your "A Potted History...." and will check through that when I have a little more time.....

I live in a very small town... our library dosen't even have a copy of the book "Treasure Island" .... so finding information about any time period other than the gold rush is difficult......... and so far, I haven't had much luck on the internet......

Hummm not exactly about handcuffs and leg irons......... sorry....

[Fox]

The thing with being a boatswain is that if you're going to do it properly the lawkeeper aspect of it is only a very minor part of what the boatswain does. He's also responsible for maintaining the rigging, boats, overseeing the running of the ship, looking after the anchors and all other ropes, flags, changing of watches and he was in charge of the team of men who did the actual sailing during battle while everyone else fought. In smaller ships he might also act as master gunner.

Am I still curator of the Bonaventure? That depends what you mean. I still run the living history group Bonaventure, but I am no longer the curator of the Golden Hind replica, if that's what you meant. I had to move up country so now I do freelance work with other museums.

Patrick, a case might be argued for marines prior to 1703 being just infantry, although they were called marines and filled the same jobs that marines have done ever since, ie. being the soldiers aboard ships and forming the backbone of any landing parties. However in 1703 the establishment is fairly clear, 6 regiments of marines for service specifically aboard ships, and 6 regiments for sea-service whose job will be to form landing parties etc. I think though it's fair to say that if you want to portray a marine in 1669 you can. Yellow coat with red facings, red breeches, red stockings, black hat with yellow trim.

[cavalier_pyrate]

well im going to keep with researching the role of ship's purser, it fall in with line with what i do ( i help run my mothers SCA merchanting buisness, well the monetory side of it that is) ...........and as far as purser's go, they were a inferior warrant officer or a landman? i read that with the east india company most of the pursers were landsman who were of considerable standing in society.....but on a ship like the golden hind or any war ship from the late 16th century would this be the same or not? ............and was there any paticular item? clothing that was different or was paticular to the purser?

[Fox]

I think the social standing of pursers could vary greatly from ship to ship, and not all ships had pursers. What all pursers had in common though as far as I can tell was financial standing. They didn't have to be of any particular class but they did have to be able to get credit. As I understand it the purser supplied the vittels and slop clothes for the voyage, then drew a percentage of the men's wages in recompense.

There was no uniform for pursers until well after our period, I forget exactly when they got a uniform but I think it was early 19th century, possibly the very late 18th. In any case no naval officer had a uniform until 1747. As for whether they had particular items of dress to distinguish them (like a boatswain's whistle for example), none that I know of unless you count a fat paunch, tally stick and a set of dodgy weights