Liam McMac Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 They say that "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Funny thing is we here at the Pub learn so that we can repeat it leave it to pirates to mess with the order of the universe _Liam McMac Celtic and Pirate Tailor Beware the Iron Brigade! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael Misson Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 They say that "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Funny thing is we here at the Pub learn so that we can repeat it leave it to pirates to mess with the order of the universe Yeah, but we only pretend to repeat it. If we really repeated it, we'd all be in jail - where our outfits probably would work against us. (So we actually have learned from history - in a way.) “We either make ourselves miserable or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same.” –Carlos Casteneda "Man is free at the moment he wishes to be." — Voltaire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady constance Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 learning about history , for me only reinforces that i am sooooooooooooo grateful that God chose me to be born in the 2oth century............gratitude is what i get from reading about history.......... grateful that i can play pirate butdont really haveto live it...and teh cathoolic church was really funky back then....no thought what so ever about the LOVE God has for us...it was all servile master slave type of relationships except the saints..........no cognition about howmuch we are loved... i do wonder how many figured that out and had peace and loved God back instead of fearing to be sent straight to hell......... lady constance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Reclaiming the Blade (2008) NR Explore the history of the sword in this cutting-edge documentary, which traverses the globe to interview archaeologists, research scientists and martial arts experts from Europe, the United States and Asia. Special guests include Hollywood fight choreographer Bob Anderson, historical fencing expert John Clements, illustrator and conceptual designer John Howe and swashbuckling actor Viggo Mortensen. John Rhys-Davies narrates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam McMac Posted September 3, 2009 Author Share Posted September 3, 2009 (edited) They say that "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Funny thing is we here at the Pub learn so that we can repeat it leave it to pirates to mess with the order of the universe Yeah, but we only pretend to repeat it. If we really repeated it, we'd all be in jail - where our outfits probably would work against us. (So we actually have learned from history - in a way.) If you were a good pirate you wouldn't end up in jail Edited September 3, 2009 by Liam McMac _Liam McMac Celtic and Pirate Tailor Beware the Iron Brigade! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam McMac Posted September 3, 2009 Author Share Posted September 3, 2009 learning about history , for me only reinforces that i am sooooooooooooo grateful that God chose me to be born in the 2oth century............gratitude is what i get from reading about history.......... grateful that i can play pirate butdont really haveto live it...and teh cathoolic church was really funky back then....no thought what so ever about the LOVE God has for us...it was all servile master slave type of relationships except the saints..........no cognition about howmuch we are loved... i do wonder how many figured that out and had peace and loved God back instead of fearing to be sent straight to hell......... lady constance Well... I don't think pirates thought much about god... and if they did... they really didn't care same here but this really wasn't a topic on religion _Liam McMac Celtic and Pirate Tailor Beware the Iron Brigade! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady constance Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 hmmmm.... their culture was saturated with religion and superstition...and in their day, from our standpoint, we could call them one in the same from our understanding and changes from known psychology advances and knowldege of disease and anatomy and physiology...... they did nto think about God? hmmm reconsider the black spot on page of holy writ........ and when they buried at sea? read accounts of men at sea...logs, journals, accounts.... you certrainly dont haveto think about it...but they did... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam McMac Posted September 4, 2009 Author Share Posted September 4, 2009 hmmmm.... their culture was saturated with religion and superstition...and in their day, from our standpoint, we could call them one in the same from our understanding and changes from known psychology advances and knowldege of disease and anatomy and physiology...... they did nto think about God? hmmm reconsider the black spot on page of holy writ........ and when they buried at sea? read accounts of men at sea...logs, journals, accounts.... you certrainly dont haveto think about it...but they did... Well.... you could use the word god if you don't mean that Character Jesus, but some sort of religion whether it was superstition, voodoo etc... They sure weren't any sort of good Catholics. They were a bunch of heathens, thieves and villians... that's what a pirate is. If they said they were Catholic.... they sure as heck weren't practicing Catholics. Most of the things they did were hard wired traditions... whether they believed or not. How many kids who say the pledge of allegience really believe in God? _Liam McMac Celtic and Pirate Tailor Beware the Iron Brigade! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady constance Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Liam, things back then certainly were no different back then than they are now. i would have to say that the state of the churches back then were in tumult--just as they are today. back then they had very poor concept of fatherhood at all levels of society... and how society views father hood has a direct correlation to mans understanding of divine father hood....{if your father was not/ is not a man that treats you well and views you as valuable, having worth and dignity , well.... yah aint gonna think much about divine father hood....we humans tend to ascribe to God mans nature ..and not a divine nature...} back then fathers considered their children and wives as property.. there was no "dignity of the human person"...unless you were a man.... if you reached manhood--with disease and illness running rampant! amazing to me that running water was known about and promoted and important in roman times, then WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED????????? and civilization spent loooooooooooong years in the dark ages.....even when we talk about the enlightenment of man... and all the middle ages and coming forth til today........ i dont know what school aged children beleive..they cant believe much if we judge them by their actions since ALL actions are based on some system of beleifs......... i dont send my kids to school--i home school them! { many reasons, for one they dont teach reason and logic in schools anymore...} {kind of cool to think about us having "faith" that when we flip a light switch, we beleive lights should come on...." interesting topic!! :) lady constance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbead Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 (edited) Times change, people change, what is right and wrong changes, what constitutes being a good Catholic changes. I'll betcha ducats to doughnuts that a whole generation of people believed that any Catholic that laid waste to a whole village full of Protestants deserved sainthood! The Inquisition were considered, in their day, to be VERY good Catholics. You can't judge the past with modern eyes; you can look at it that way, but to judge the people who lived in those times you have to put on their hats and shoes and see the world the way they saw it. I did a lot of research about the susperstitions of the sea before I wrote "A Tale From Devil's Tavern." Many of the susperstitions had their basis in Christian or religious lore and beliefs. You never started a journey on December 31; not because it was "New Year's Eve" and you wanted to party your butt off, but because it was considered unlucky because that was the day that people believed Judas Iscariot hung himself. You didn't start your journey on a Friday either because that was the day Jesus was crucified. You don't start a cruise on the first Monday in April, either, because this is the day Cain slew Abel. Times change, people change, what we believe and what we live by changes. But, wait a minute, how in the deep blue sea did we get to talking about this?? Blackbead Edited September 4, 2009 by Blackbead "In the end, it's not the gold that sets our sails, 'Tis freedom and the promise of a better life That raises our black flags." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady constance Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 i think no matter what time of history you look at, superstitions come into play.... i think we need to understand what a superstition is...... the words definition.... in a peoples attempt to understand " action= consequence ", and in terms they could grasp intellectually, they found or thought they found a relationship between two events -- one event or cicumstance that caused the other... in a seeking to stop bad consequences, they said things like " you catch the cold tha causes your death if you go out in the rain without shoes on "........{ knowing nothing about germs , viruses, food storage, bacteria} and as far as christianity, as a way of/type of/ kind of incorporating the culture of the people they sought to convert, has alot to do with things....... christmas was the conversion of the roman cultures feast of saturnalia ..{ if remember correctly} the church/ catholics/ christians came into the culture they were trying to convert and knew that people held long established traditions..... and they sought to " redeem" "sanctify" the traditions.... you dont easily seperate peoples cultural traditions... you have to replace them...... just try replacing thanksgiving... christmas.... easter.... and even today we have some superstitions that simply no one nor any business approaches to try and change.... where i work, there is no operating room numbered 13......... no recovery room slot numbered 13....... rooms where patients have shot themselves are CLOSED....{ good thing there aint that many!!} ever known anyone who bought a particular brand of vehicle that simply performed horribly? how many people do you know would willingly choose to purcahse the same name or type of vehicle... is that called superstition or is that called reason/logic? expereince? inability to forgive or inability to comprehend? unable to let go of a grudge????......... excellent topic.. excellent discussion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam McMac Posted September 5, 2009 Author Share Posted September 5, 2009 i think no matter what time of history you look at, superstitions come into play.... i think we need to understand what a superstition is...... the words definition.... in a peoples attempt to understand " action= consequence ", and in terms they could grasp intellectually, they found or thought they found a relationship between two events -- one event or cicumstance that caused the other... in a seeking to stop bad consequences, they said things like " you catch the cold tha causes your death if you go out in the rain without shoes on "........{ knowing nothing about germs , viruses, food storage, bacteria} and as far as christianity, as a way of/type of/ kind of incorporating the culture of the people they sought to convert, has alot to do with things....... christmas was the conversion of the roman cultures feast of saturnalia ..{ if remember correctly} the church/ catholics/ christians came into the culture they were trying to convert and knew that people held long established traditions..... and they sought to " redeem" "sanctify" the traditions.... you dont easily seperate peoples cultural traditions... you have to replace them...... just try replacing thanksgiving... christmas.... easter.... and even today we have some superstitions that simply no one nor any business approaches to try and change.... where i work, there is no operating room numbered 13......... no recovery room slot numbered 13....... rooms where patients have shot themselves are CLOSED....{ good thing there aint that many!!} ever known anyone who bought a particular brand of vehicle that simply performed horribly? how many people do you know would willingly choose to purcahse the same name or type of vehicle... is that called superstition or is that called reason/logic? expereince? inability to forgive or inability to comprehend? unable to let go of a grudge????......... excellent topic.. excellent discussion... Christians have an uncany knack at bringing "god" into any conversation even without a segway... you could be talking about cereal and they will say.. "You know why god likes cereal?" Is their any historical record of Catholic pirates attacking only protestant ships? Or Vice versa... PIrates for Christ!! that would be awesome. A pirate was a pirate... my point was that none of them were "good" by the standards of their time... or ours. We don't have a whole forum dedicated to some boring sailor on some random merchant ship. We remember them because they were "bad." and yes.... HUNDAI purpously made bad cars to piss me off and I hate them to this day because of it. _Liam McMac Celtic and Pirate Tailor Beware the Iron Brigade! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam McMac Posted September 5, 2009 Author Share Posted September 5, 2009 hmmmm.... their culture was saturated with religion and superstition...and in their day, from our standpoint, we could call them one in the same from our understanding and changes from known psychology advances and knowldege of disease and anatomy and physiology...... they did nto think about God? hmmm reconsider the black spot on page of holy writ........ and when they buried at sea? read accounts of men at sea...logs, journals, accounts.... you certrainly dont haveto think about it...but they did... Well.... you could use the word god if you don't mean that Character Jesus, but some sort of religion whether it was superstition, voodoo etc... They sure weren't any sort of good Catholics. They were a bunch of heathens, thieves and villians... that's what a pirate is. If they said they were Catholic.... they sure as heck weren't practicing Catholics. Most of the things they did were hard wired traditions... whether they believed or not. How many kids who say the pledge of allegience really believe in God? What happened was that we Northern Europeans were still living in caves and picking fleas out of our wives hair when most of the world was at the peak of civilization. when the Romans came to "give" us "civilization' we did everything in our power to keep it out. (next) _Liam McMac Celtic and Pirate Tailor Beware the Iron Brigade! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady constance Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 and WHY did we do everything to fight it? ......... i do agree with your statement that when the romans came, we fought against change... hmmm maybe it had soemthing to do with paying their taxes? their lack of respect of the cultures traditions and values { sure does not seem like we had a whole lot of traditions TO value back then !!LOL!!}........... i dont know why roman culture was fought against..... the only thing i can gather is that for a richer, easier life, one has to master food and shelter and clothing first... and be stable in consistantly providing it..... then there is time for arts, and specialization of things... only a culture that could consistantly provide for food and shelter would rise above in ways of technical advances in all areas of non necessities........ and i dont think for one minute piracy ended...the craft is still alive and well!!!. it just changed forms-- different people "used" the ways of pirates { hey pirates are from all era where there is water and water travel}.... and once encountering water pirates, then it began on trade routes.. but we would call them brigands instead of pirates......... there are corporate pirates, and in any business that is or can be , there are pirates..... and in general , how you feel about pirates depends on which end of treatment being doled out... are yah giving it? or receiving it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quartermaster James Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Just to be clear about one thing here, piracy is robbery committed at sea. Although common usage has warranted the terms be placed in the modern lexicon; "software piracy", "pirate radio", and like terms are metaphors. There are, of course, many terms for robbers and thieves on land, the aforementioned "brigand" among them. Piracy most likely started as soon as the second boat was launched, and will most likely continue until there is only one boat. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -George Santayana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quartermaster James Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 They were a bunch of heathens, thieves and villians... I really have to object here. Rejecting Judeo-Christian cosmology does not automatically make one a thief or, far less, a villain. Those distinctions must be earned in their own right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam McMac Posted September 7, 2009 Author Share Posted September 7, 2009 They were a bunch of heathens, thieves and villians... I really have to object here. Rejecting Judeo-Christian cosmology does not automatically make one a thief or, far less, a villain. Those distinctions must be earned in their own right. I totaly agree...I am technicaly a heathen... more specificaly an atheist... and I am a damn fine human being. If I do say so myslef. I never implied that being a heathen is synonymous with being a theif or a villian, although I'm sure that most thieves and villians did reject religion. It was more of a list of possibilities... not requirements. Didn't they say that Black Beard never acctualy killed anyone? Now that's an example of a thief who was not villainous. You know how they say that you can't fold a piece of papermore than seven times? I wonder how many times we can split this hair? _Liam McMac Celtic and Pirate Tailor Beware the Iron Brigade! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael Misson Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 ...although I'm sure that most thieves and villians did reject religion. It was more of a list of possibilities... not requirements. Didn't they say that Black Beard never acctualy killed anyone? Now that's an example of a thief who was not villainous. Some of the pirates certainly embraced the devil - which, when you think about, is different than rejecting religion. If you have no religion, there is no devil. But if that interests you, you can read the court transcripts and find examples of this. Blackbeard may or may not have killed anyone, but he was certainly an accessory to murder. “We either make ourselves miserable or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same.” –Carlos Casteneda "Man is free at the moment he wishes to be." — Voltaire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quartermaster James Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Some of the pirates certainly embraced the devil - which, when you think about, is different than rejecting religion. I have to wonder of what options they were aware? If the Church was their adversary, then their adversary's adversary is their friend. After all, they didn't reject the Church for Judaism or Islam. Or was "turning Turk" considered embracing the devil? If you have no religion, there is no devil. Which is not to say that all religions have a devil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael Misson Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) Some of the pirates certainly embraced the devil - which, when you think about, is different than rejecting religion. I have to wonder of what options they were aware? If the Church was their adversary, then their adversary's adversary is their friend. After all, they didn't reject the Church for Judaism or Islam. Or was "turning Turk" considered embracing the devil? Ah, true. Perhaps I am using erroneously using my current mindset to understand past conditions. Although many contemporary writers seem to refer specifically to people with other religions as...something...I can't remember the exact term...but it was on the order of 'savages.' I've found it in the journals of those who made observations of other cultures, particularly in the Caribbean and Africa. I don't recall much about observations of the Asian or Middle Eastern religious practices since it isn't really in my area of interest. Dampier might have had something to say in that area, although I don't recall such. Barlow traveled to both locations, but he didn't seem to have much to say about other religions. (All my reading focuses on the medical aspects, but I sometimes pick up other concept along the way when they stick.) Maybe someone else can give exact quotes - I don't have any recorded because it doesn't really interest me much. I don't recall getting the idea from the unrepentant that the church was their adversary. I got the idea that they had turned their back on it because their career choice violated the moral stance the church had on their 'profession.' Again, this may support your point. If you have no religion, there is no devil. Which is not to say that all religions have a devil. I never said they did. I am referring to quotes in court trials where the pirates say they knew they were going to the devil or some descriptive that implies him. You know, this still suggests that those speakers accept the concept of religion on some level, though. You may be right that they didn't have a non-religious alternative (or you may not - I really don't know much about the religious mores of early 18th c. England - nor I am interested enough to research them - outside of their ties into medical thinking of the period.) Still, that fact still seems to have been that those who expressed such sentiments agreed that there was an evil immortal representative in some form or another. Again, it may just be because no publication had officially pronounced God dead and their minds didn't easily run in that direction. People generally swim in the direction of the prevalent thought streams of their times. I think it's extraordinarily difficult for us to break out of our prevailing conceptual framework and embrace truly revolutionary (yet always available) new ideas and ways of doing and thinking about things. Which supports the essence of the idea that they couldn't grasp non-religion very easily. So maybe I'm wrong or maybe I'm not. (We need a time machine.) Edited September 8, 2009 by Raphael Misson “We either make ourselves miserable or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same.” –Carlos Casteneda "Man is free at the moment he wishes to be." — Voltaire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 [/size] Which is not to say that all religions have a devil. Turning Turk meant to convert to the practice of Islam. Most so called Christian churches of the day would most likely view such a person as rejecting Christ and therefore lost and on their way to hell and the judgment that follows after. They did not all necessarily view turning Turk as directly "embracing" or devil worship. "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captscurvy_nc Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 hmmmm.... their culture was saturated with religion and superstition...and in their day, from our standpoint, we could call them one in the same from our understanding and changes from known psychology advances and knowldege of disease and anatomy and physiology...... they did nto think about God? hmmm reconsider the black spot on page of holy writ........ and when they buried at sea? read accounts of men at sea...logs, journals, accounts.... you certrainly dont haveto think about it...but they did... Well.... you could use the word god if you don't mean that Character Jesus, but some sort of religion whether it was superstition, voodoo etc... They sure weren't any sort of good Catholics. They were a bunch of heathens, thieves and villians... that's what a pirate is. If they said they were Catholic.... they sure as heck weren't practicing Catholics. Most of the things they did were hard wired traditions... whether they believed or not. How many kids who say the pledge of allegience really believe in God? Remember,most Pirates only became what history considers to be thieves, heathens and villians because of starting out in the Navy or as Privateers. No cell phones, no mail means no way to tell someone that whatever war they were fighting in was over. If you take a man at 12 years old and teach him to be a killing machine in the name of God and Country and give him no other training to provide for himslef once his days at sea are over what do you think he will do? He takes a ship and continues to work with the tools he was given by the very same country that will now look at him as a criminal. Yes there were some that did it just to be evil, but most did it because they were never taught anything else. Just my thoughts from what I've read over the years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quartermaster James Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 They say that "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Funny thing is we here at the Pub learn so that we can repeat it leave it to pirates to mess with the order of the universe I guess we're not so much learning from as leaning on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jib Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 No Catholic Pirates...? Try the Knights of St. John/ Knights of Malta. Grace O'Mally. I imagine you could fine a few Catholics from the Spanish, French, and Portuguese who took up the sweet trade. I imagine they all thought they were very good Catholics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam McMac Posted September 10, 2009 Author Share Posted September 10, 2009 No Catholic Pirates...? Try the Knights of St. John/ Knights of Malta. Grace O'Mally. I imagine you could fine a few Catholics from the Spanish, French, and Portuguese who took up the sweet trade. I imagine they all thought they were very good Catholics. Well.... just like today. Many people claim to be religious but if you observe their actions you will find that they are not. Remember that book...'The Five People You Will Meet In Heaven'.... you'll find it in the non-fiction section _Liam McMac Celtic and Pirate Tailor Beware the Iron Brigade! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
 {if(f.fbq)return;n=f.fbq=function(){n.callMethod? n.callMethod.apply(n,arguments):n.queue.push(arguments)}; if(!f._fbq)f._fbq=n;n.push=n;n.loaded=!0;n.version='2.0'; n.queue=[];t=b.createElement(e);t.async=!0; t.src=v;s=b.getElementsByTagName(e)[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(t,s)}(window, document,'script', 'https://connect.facebook.net/en_US/fbevents.js'); fbq('init', '1074427760321280'); fbq('track', 'PageView'); </script> <noscript><img height=)
&ev=PageView&cd%5Bitem_id%5D=15789&cd%5Bitem_name%5D=Learning+from+History&cd%5Bitem_type%5D=topic&cd%5Bcategory_name%5D=Beyond Pyracy"/>
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now