points and choreography

[Cascabel]

Second, faire requires weapons to be peace tied at all times, so unless you are part of cast, there is no opportunity to swing a blade at all. I'm thinking more of the specific pirate festivals, where all groups get time on the field, or historic timelines, where the same sort of thing applies. I would never consider just drawing on another group of wandering pirates or soldiers in a public area. The battle, fight, duel or whatever would need to be scheduled and monitored by marshals no matter what, in a secured area.

Normally, only cast members are allowed to use weapons either bladed or firearms at all festivals. It's a liability issue. Most events that I attend provide for individuals or groups to become participants by signing waivers of some sort. Normally no one is allowed to just show up and "play" without some kind of sign-in procedure. The event itself is responsible and can be held liable for what goes on at their venue.

>>>> Cascabel

[Silkie McDonough]

Even Nell said she would be uncomfortable with a group such as ours at an event she was involved in.

I can not speak for Nell but I read her trepidation as being uncomfortable in facing you & yours on a field. Having different fight styles. I to would. You would hurt me ...I mean I have lots of padding but it is all soft and without armor ...ouch.

Watching ...sure ...I would love to watch Hawkyns & his crew fight one another. Too many of us have no idea what a real fight involves and it would be a good lesson, I just wouldn't want to participate in one ...after all I play a civilian during the GAoP I am not even playing a pyrate ...I am, after all, a woman. I suppose if I were to fight I would use something found around the house like a rake or a spoon or a bed warmer!

[theM.A.dDogge]

i agree that most Faires i know of..would be no place to have a "walk in"....most of there stuff is on stage only...to keep the sharpies away from the drunkys....

but some of the other Pirate festivals or re-enactments would offer a place...being a fight circle or designated battle feild....to have close quarter combat to their participants...again not the general public..not just anyone who shows up with a sword...but a registered participant who agrees to the same saftey standards put forth by the host group of the event

but againb the crux of the matter still seems to be...which one. higley choregraphed(then stick to your own group and pair off)....loosley choreagraphed...(pair off with another group)....not choreagraphed...(wear protective armour your goinna get thumped)

me thinks this will probably go along the same lines as what are the historic guidelines of the event.....meanning....if all participants are required to be ultra historic in clothing...then thumpin seems the correct style.....if mostly historic...with a few inconsisitancies aloowed....then full choreographed willmost likely work well....if a bit loose in clothing requirements...fantasy to historic....then a looser style may apply..

i still not sure if a organised "one style" can be achieved...for the reasons mentioned else where in this post....blackpowder weapons have alot of agreed upon saftey standards...but also distance is the saftey mechanism...or the tolerance......which would not apply to close quarters........

[Silkie McDonough]

Being alone in my area means that I have no one to work with. I have the basics set by M.A.d'dogge but I have no one to work with. Working on my own can only get me so far. If there were another crew that I played with that I were with regularly that used the same basics then I could fight with that group also.

Question, doesn't even actual fighting have intelligent basics? Martial arts has the different belts to know what level an opponent is. I don't suggest a sash system but it would be nice to clang swords with someone of my own level. A boxer doesn't just hop into the ring without some training and rehearsal I want to be able to put on a lightly rehersed show ...that is all.

Clint, can you help with that sort of "show"?

[MadL]

Well, from what I have been reading and watching on training videos, Silkie, it would seem that the standards for Stage Fencing are already there, perhaps just not adapted by the pirate reenactors? Also from what I have been comparing, the same basics for 'real' fencing (be it sabre, foil, or epee) be the same for 'stage choreographers' with pretty much just the actual "target" being different; along with some 'keys' to let yer opponent know where you are going next - in 'real' fencing you don't use them but you use various movements to inform the judges of your execution...some of which I see are also carried over to stage "because it looks good". Even much of Cold Steel's video set on cutlass fighting follows most nearly all of the basics that I have been seeing for sabre...only Cold Steel's DVDs go for 'real' not 'stage', and in real I mean "real" like in Self Defense.

[Monterey Jack]

okay..my take on this and then I need to weigh anchor for a bit....

Stage Combat: There are two major schools teaching theatrical work...the SAFD Society of American Fight Directors (and the British branch which I can;t recall..BFDC??...and Art of Combat. The SAFD teaches very flamboyant and wonderful fight styles..but not historically accurate. I have yet to talk to an SAFD instructor who can quote from any historical text.

Art of Combat teaches theatrically safe combat styles based on historical forms and goes to great pains to be sure their work is historically sound. The same is true of the HMCA. While we do not generally teach stage work (we work with we certainly can if the need arises...we have certified stage combat directors (thru Art of Combat) who can work to help create very believable fights, while keeping them safe for the audience and the actors. Generally we teach wht would work in a true life or death fight aboard ship....that being said.....

NO ONE FIGHTS HISTORICALLY ACCURATE . I can't tell you what a freaking thorn this is in my side. Historically correct fighting means people DIE. All any of us can hope to do is replicate it to the best of our abilities. Anyone who says they fight "live" steel, unchoreographed, or "for Real" is deluding themselves. None of us do that anymore. I have seen several who have tried,,and have come away with lacerated thighs, lungs, ripped armpits, powder burns to the eyes.... I have fouight two bouts in my life with sharps and was lucky to have lived thru it...Please stop saying you do it the way it was done. If you did...you'd have bodies left behind and insurance costs thru the roof....

One particular style cannot be achieved because (as true with the fight schools of old) every group of teachers has their own method. Groups meeting to fight need to do so well in advance of the event to figure out if their styles are compatible.

That being said, we can all get along fine so long as we don't presume to impose our style on another group. Those who fight and end up wounding one another will disappear from the circuit. Those whose style are historic, safe, entertaining and professional will continue to entertain and inform...which is as it should be.

[Monterey Jack]

apologies for the various typos; for more info you can hit the following sites:

www.artofcombat.org

or

www.HistoricalMaritimeCombat.com

[Joe Pyrat]

This may actually be off topic in a way, but my studying of the use of swords by pirates indicates that there were few "masters of the sword". In fact the whole idea behind the cutlass was that it was an hacking weapon designed for someone who had not been trained in swordsmanship, since back in the day only the nobility was trained in actual sword craft. The pirates first line of defense was his firearm so swords were the last thing employed. Also most boardings, at least based on my readings, didn't require any fighting, they simply intimidated the other crew into surrendering.

In my experience with real combats, they are usually short violent things which end rather quickly, very similar to MADL's example with regard to his son and the drunken pirate. It therefore seems to me you have two options in these simulated combats, you can make it real (short and violent) or you can do a stage combat, like those from the old Errol Flynn movies or more recently PotC's several extended sword fights. Since what you are really doing, it seems anyway, is entertaining, the latter examples would seem more appropriate, and a choreographed fight would seem to be the answer, much as those in the movies. If you are doing a demonstration of what period fighting would have been like, short and to the point would seem more appropriate, possibly ending in something more akin to Indiana Jones shooting the guy with the sword in the first Indi movie.

A third option would seem to be available which I have not noticed mentioned here. SCA holds non-staged combats all the time using rattan swords. Their rules state that when the dead man thinks he's dead he's dead. The katana was also taught using bamboo or rattan swords and combats there were at full speed and not choreographed. Of course we do not have the advantage of armor so this might not work for pirates, not to mention the rattan swords definitely detract from the historical look of the combat.

Anyway, that's my two doubloons worth...

[MadL]

Firstly a couple o' corrections:

1) That was not me with th' drunken pirate and a son; I have only daughters, two o' them buggards 'n three grand ones.

(and if I ever was t' catch anyone pulling a blade, or any weapon, on any one of them - they will NOT walk away, drunk or otherwise, and this is Not a threat - this story I will not go into again, I made vague reference to it elsewhere)

2) Me name be Mad L, th' Pub just would not allow me th' space between d and L.

Like me Drill Sargent said "Ye be Mad L, and ye better be Mad as 'ell! Now Say It! SAY IT!!!!"

(only he did naught have a pirate accent...but he should've, he was mad as a pirate!)

Now secondly;

I think this topic kinda got turned around, I think what Rusty Nell was seeking was a set of standard choreographs that those who wish t' partake in could, sort of a Global set of standards that Pub members could work on and share so when they meet at faire when abroad they could 'play'. I am pretty sure she meant with stage blade, or even wood but not with sharpies.

I know Hawkyns was worried that such behavior would squeeze he's group out of the scene, but seriously Hawkyns, I do naught think that would be th' case here as your style does appear t' already be rather inclusive t' your area as such a fight plan would never even get off th' ground in some of th' more...shall we say 'conservative' regions, such as th' mention of North Cal Faire (ye know these softie Californees bruise easy).

Where Monterey Jack points out that there are a vast number of styles already in teach; which was where my own mind was when fist stepped into this topic. But I do not see where that should stop a group of Pub members from starting their own style. It should not intimidate those with already set styles for they do not allow others to play without proper introduction/indoctrination in order to play. And if those who already play with their local groups do not want to engage with such a new group or contribute to their goals then I still do not see why any party here should feel 'intimidated' by it - after all, ye not now the 'Only' style nor will ye ever be, and new styles will continue t' emerge with or without th' Pub's involvement. Actually I can only see Rusty Nell's intentions as honorable and a means of endorsing safety among those who would otherwise take it upon themselves anyway...with less 'direction' t' guide them.

Of course there be schools, the Real schools o' trade, who can complain "that be where we make our lively hood and ye yahoots will jeopardize that"; well, to that I would only say "Open yer peepers matie" such a Pub involvement could actually be t' yer advantage for only a few simple choreographs could ever be standardized in such a manor, perhaps enough t' wet some thirsts and drive some folk back t' home port and cause their thirst t' end up on yer own doorstep seeking more.

I know for me, I was actually seeking a Fencing School when I first happened upon th' pirate group, a true fencing school I would still like t' find within me reach....just for me, at this turn in time, is not affordable...but one day...

For some of us this be a hobby, not a profession, so why would th' professionals not embrace th' hobbyists, for some hobbyists do find ways t' make what once was a mere 'hobby' an actual 'profession' - like me own sense once said he has t' train one hundred students to find a single sense that would rise up from his training under him.

Rule number five of Grand Master Gichin Funakoshi's "Six Rules" of Karate-Do:

#5 - Try to see yourself as you truly are and try to adopt what is meritorious in the work of others.

[RustyNell]

YEAH!!!! THANK YOU MAD! for spelling it all out. I've been trying to re-direct back to my original intent but it was beginning to seem pointless everyone appeared to want to go off in a million directions.

There is no reason in my mind that those of us here on the PUB who WANT to, can find a system between our groups. The ones who WANT TO PARTICIPATE... CAN... the ones who don't... DON"T

I just thought it would be cool to be able to tell Silkie... hey next time we get together lets work on "The bilge-rat" you learn the Offense I'll learn Defense. If my crew and your crew knew that fight, and which side was which we could actually feasibly do that, and eventually do it well.

Edited January 27, 2009 by RustyNell

[MadL]

Aye Rusty Nell, I think it was derailed on many account; "visions o' marauding rogues with no training, passing one another in crowded faire streets when one recognizes another from some forum somewhere and suddenly steel (or aluminum, or wood) is drawn and begin t' clash....."

Certainly that would be recipe for disaster, not t' mention in violation o' many a festival standing rules for allowing us t' bear arms. I certainly would not want a new rule that cause me t' have t' "check me weapons at th' gate" or even be turned away....especially as I prefer t' carry real steel.

However, there are always time when far away friends gather; behind a camp, in th' parking lot, after hours, at private affairs even where such 'friendly duals' could (and often already do) take place. It would actually be more a matter of Safety for such a development and structure as ye suggest - even I was not participating I would much rather know that 'them yahoots' back yonder had some knowledge of what they are doing rather then 'winging it' from th' tops o' their head. Which does come back t' th' "Self regulating" of what I spoke early on.

Those 'Pub Members' would have t' keep in mind however that they are not 'part of the show', they are 'not paid performers' (where I feel some other means of derailment came from, those in fear of their lively hood being encroached upon), but are merely engaging in Safe practice of their hobby. Should they wish t' take their act out into th' open public then they would have t' follow all th' rules that th' currently 'Paid Performers' took 'n get all th' papers and permissions of th' council, etc, etc, etc - until then it is merely friendly, and Safe, practice 'Off the main street' of a festival. Now o' course I can only visualize festivals o' th' South West, I understand other regions things run differently and thus such would have t' adapt in a responsible AND respectable (to th' Paid Performers) abides.

Of course there would still be some what will protest for this or for that, but where applicable (and responsibly executed) I do not see where this would be an issue, those who resist change will just have t' be made aware of what is going to be is going to be. Soon they would begin t' see such benefits as I laid out earlier: new crop of students knock'n at thier studio door, new crop o' members t' scout and press int' service, perhaps even some new moves they can incorporate int' their own act! (heavens t' bid, a Master actually 'learning' something from a Student! Unheard Of!!)

Edited January 27, 2009 by MadL

[RustyNell]

My actual intent was to get several of the groups of "paid performers" who take a similar approach, ie scripted choreography..... to work with other 'paid performers'

My mistake was I didn't realize there were people out there who were actually fighting, I didn't know this was even a kosher practice at these Festivals. I wrongly assumed EVERYONE was acting. It explains the initial confusion in the thread.

My belief is enough TIME on the same system.. and enough meeting up at various events across the country would eventually result in a great guild of actors able to play together with a great measure of safety and skill.

Just my dream... sorry... I'm a dreamer!

Edited January 27, 2009 by RustyNell

[theM.A.dDogge]

ok....first off...most faires wont let ya play wit others...and the "paid performers"...well they dont like to play wit not paid ...hurts their wallet too much....

but on the other hand....their are other events...such as re-enactments...where they do set aside battles and skirmishes....or even fight circles....where various "REGISTERED" groups may play wit one another....i believe it is in this vain that Miss Nelly was infurin' to....yes??

but i also see nuthin wrong wit other groups...who play amongst themselves...in their areas(camps,fight circles,designated spaces)....where the general public(stupid people) could not git hit.....we always called this sparring....just like in boxing....real hits...real lumps...just half speed...half strength...bouts....

but those who sparr....and those who choreograph dont play well wit each other....

now from an event organizer perspective....the sparring will not be as popular with the insurance companies(real pirates) nowadays.....but as a re-enator....i see the wealth of knowledge as well as historical signifigance of sparrin....and have done both sparring and choreographed in front of audiences.....but for most paid performers(actors)...tis the showy stuff that sells the most.

so....i am afraid that for the faire circuit...any type of sword play(albeit from an paid performer)...will be poo-pooed....

but from a more....re-enactor freindly(ie registered participants)...event.....as long as safe measures/perimeters can be agreed upon.....both sparring and choreographed can be adopted....depending on the level of authenticity reached and goals of the group/event.

tho i believe everybody should take up some form of swordsmanship...i do not believe just anyone off the street should engage anyone at any event.....i believe swords...like black powder weapons.....should have a saftey meeting for all registered participants....as well as some guidlines dictated by the host group/event organizers before alowing anyone to participate.

[theM.A.dDogge]

just for those interested...i am in the process of putting together a trainning video....i plan to use Hurricane&Diosa's group as guinea pigs....of the style i teach my group....(the crewe of the Archangel)....this i believe will help facilitate the long distance learning of many members....and help in the interim before we get together again.

[Diosa De Cancion]

Sheesh... I'm out of the loop for a while and look at all the trouble Nell is causing...

Aye, our crewe are willing to be the guinea pigs for Dogge, assuming he takes his whiny backside outside and does video (something about snow and ice holding him back... it's too cold... he might chip a nail...something like that.... damn pansy pirates...)

I think it's a simple concept. Those who want to learn the program, learn the program. Those who don't keep your swords the hell away from us. Then those who know the program get to the event and already have the basics so we can then take an evening and morning and hammer out what we want to do for a performance.

ok. I;m back to impatiently waiting for a Dogge fighting video....

[theM.A.dDogge]

course...ya realise that sounds bad.....a dogge-fighting video....!?!?..... ...please keep PETA away from me...thanks

[hurricane]

just for those interested...i am in the process of putting together a trainning video....i plan to use Hurricane&Diosa's group as guinea pigs....of the style i teach my group....(the crewe of the Archangel)....this i believe will help facilitate the long distance learning of many members....and help in the interim before we get together again.

Did I just get called a pig?

Them's be fighting words and I will do my best to slaughter the likes of me crewe with all the indignity and dishonor a true pirate (or buccaneer) would. I will scratch, bite, kick in the groin, backside, hack, spit, poke and otherwise dispatch the enemy as quickly as possible. None of those namby-pamby fencing moves like I see. If the blood ain't there, me sticker needs sharpening it does. No worries Dogge, I am preparing me list of crewe members in the order they will practice with Diosa and I so we can get really good before we face one another and I meet my inevitable doom at her angry hands. That is my oath to you, sir!

-- Hurricane

(Voted "Most Likely To Leak in Swordplay")

[hurricane]

just for those interested...i am in the process of putting together a trainning video....i plan to use Hurricane&Diosa's group as guinea pigs....of the style i teach my group....(the crewe of the Archangel)....this i believe will help facilitate the long distance learning of many members....and help in the interim before we get together again.

Did I just get called a pig?

Them's be fighting words and I will do my best to slaughter the likes of me crewe with all the indignity and dishonor a true pirate (or buccaneer) would. I will scratch, bite, kick in the groin, backside, hack, spit, poke and otherwise dispatch the enemy as quickly as possible. None of those namby-pamby fencing moves like I see. If the blood ain't there, me sticker needs sharpening it does.

No worries Dogge, I am preparing me list of crewe members in the order they will practice with Diosa and I so we can get really good before we face one another and I meet my inevitable doom at her angry hands. That is my oath to you, sir!

-- Hurricane

(Voted "Most Likely To Leak in Swordplay")

[Hawkyns]

Comes back down to the fact that there are nearly as many types of event as there are crews running them. No, as faire goers, we would not be allowed to do anything. Heck, Maryland Ren Faire doesn't even let you carry a weapon at all. But most of my crew doesn't bother with ren faires, we do more historic timelines and re-enactments where it is pretty much accepted that you will be carrying, it will be real(though blunted) and you know how to use it. We interact more with the RevWar, F&I, and similar groups than we do with the faire folk. We are now expanding into pirate festivals, as they bcome more authentic and less Hollywood. Nothing like an adrenaline and blackpowder high to focus your mind on the weapon and the fight.

Hawkyns

[MadL]

So it sound to me, Hawkyns, that ye would prefer faire were there only be but a few 'paid performers' and th' public audience. Meself, I would not waist me own hard earned coin at th' gate of a fest what disarms me, I would prefer t' stay home and watch a movie. I suppose this be one o' me own pet peeves, perhaps th' pirate enthusiasts in yer area prefer t' walk around as 'linen clad tourists'?? Sounds like a silly outing to me.

In 2008 I attended over a dozen festivals, parties, bar events and not a one attempted to disarm me so long as I keep it peace tied if I am not actually in th' show, and even those in th' show don't wander around baring live steel without proper safety measurements as Goddess in the Bodice points out. Which again brings us back t' my original hesitation at the beginning of this thread. But I think Rusty Nell may have just clarified yet more of that by stating "to get several of the groups of paid performers..." - well now that t' me would sound much more doable approachable....and as she stated 'The ones who WANT TO PARTICIPATE... CAN...if (insert)Goddess in the Bodice(/ insert) don't... then DON"T'

Also as pointed out, there be many different type of faires across the nation and different regions have different local policies which would have t' be worked out with th' show proprietors and obviously any one of them can bar such a 'performance' at their own discretion.

As one who is not a member of any of the afore mentioned mentioned crews; my assumption of the last series of posts wold be that an 'ego button' has been pushed, those who do not 'play well together' and have no intention of doing so.

Anyway, I will bow out now 'n return t' lurk'n as this last turn has clearly counted me out - but in parting I would heed all t' take one last look at Master Gichin Funakoshi's words (who's experience vastly out spans anyone here) and contemplate upon their meaning; it could mean th' difference of becoming like th' dinosaur, or evolving like th' shark.

[Monterey Jack]

As one who is not a member of any of the afore mentioned mentioned crews; my assumption of the last series of posts wold be that an 'ego button' has been pushed, those who do not 'play well together' have no intention of doing so.

That is not an unreasonable assumption. Groups who are open, friendly and enjoy sharing their expertise will usually at least try to work with another group of like-minded individuals. The problems only arise whern you have one group out of the two who are egocentric or expect to play "their way"... OR a professional group turns down a dangerous group and the dangerous one starts rumours tha the other group are stuck up and don't wanna play. I've been on that end, and its easier to take the bad PR than it is to play with unsafe fighters.

Then there is the insurance issue. I have had to turn away teams of fighters who walk in expecting to be able to fight because the venue would only insure my team. We got called all kinds of names when all we were doing was covering everyone's butts.

[Diosa De Cancion]

Well, here's my next 10 cents worth.

What we are talking about here is certain crewe's that do know one another. We are not randomly picking people have have no sense of who the others are. Dogge will be videoing the basics and we will all be learning them so we can interact with one another.

The people who are doing this are ALL part of paid performance troupes. While we are not paid to be at PIP, as it's more of a 'family' gathering, we all do this professionally. Speaking for our crewe, we do have liability insurance as entertainers and performers as well. In addition to swords we do a fire show, the Archangel crewe does a billion other things as professional performers, the BIB crewe likewise. I frankly do not worry about 'ego' issues as we all worked together on everything from battles to taking care of the fort this year and didn't have problems. This is a lot of professionals who have become friends and happen to be located all over the country who would like to be able to play together more when we are together.

So this is not just a bunch of people coming off the street to smack each other with swords.

We just thought it would be nice to know the same method so when we meet up we can work together. Thats it... Pretty much at this point we know who is involved, we were just discussing options here.

And Dogge, I am really tempted to mail a photo of you fighting to PETA and complain about the dogge fighting going on :) I doubt they would appreciate it though.....

Edited January 28, 2009 by Goddess in the Bodice

[Cannibal Chrispy]

Huzza Diosa! You have just earned your next backrub, an Rusty sez she'll rub yer feet!

[Diosa De Cancion]

Huzza Diosa! You have just earned your next backrub, an Rusty sez she'll rub yer feet!

Woohoo!!! Damn I'll start sticking my nose into stuff more often to get those kinds of rewards!!!

[Hawkyns]

So it sound to me, Hawkyns, that ye would prefer faire were there only be but a few 'paid performers' and th' public .

Nah, I generally don't like working as a paid performer, or with them for that matter. Too restrictive when you have to worry about the terms of the contract. As I said, faire is not really one of our venues. My crew has never actually been to one as a crew. No, our preference is for timelines and re-enactments where nobody gets paid and there are lots of people, all on the same level. Don't even need the public, really. This is our game, for ourselves. We are not performers, we are reenactors/living historians. Many of our events over the years have been private, with no public allowed.

We've started doing some of the festivals over the last couple of years. I hope that they continue to go in the direction of reenactment, rather than faire. Maybe that is what I am trying to say. There are plenty of faire venues out there, for people who want to go the acting/choreographed route. I guess I'm just hoping to stop the festivals from becoming just another version of faire, with paid performers, a script, and a lot of limitations.

Hawkyns