Capt. Sterling Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 let me clarify a few things before anyone thinks that what we are sugesting is being trained so that anyone can go up to a renny and challange them....there are a few groups out there...that have like interests...and like styles in SATGE COMBAT.....we are suggesting to learn the same basic moves....for saftey....use the same rules....so when we get together next...we may THEN choreograph some simple exchanges.... this is a place for suggestions of how to engage another group...in a safe manner as well as setting...in a realistic format. Agreed, the thought I had was that if you taught us the basics of the same moves you all do, when we meet up (say the day/night before PIP or another event) we could already have the basics down and then build off of the basics. With that said, I would think if we were able to get the basic moves down then we could possibly start to work out general scripts...and thanks to video technology could even video the interactions and share them among one another. Then, once we actually arrive on site, we even may know most of the scenario, but would still have to play it through with our counterparts a few times to make sure we are at the right tempo and can move through it safely. I want us all to go home in one piece... but have a hell of a great time playing! agreed... once folks know the same moves, a "script" can go out, folks can learn the moves in advance and then practice them with their chosen opponent once we all arrive at the event...whether this means a day early or first thing every morning and once again sometime at night... Just think I might actually be able to have my crewe all on the same side, and I bet I'm not the only person thinking this... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyNell Posted December 30, 2008 Author Share Posted December 30, 2008 (edited) This is exactly why I started this thread can't wait until we get to a place where in a couple of rehearsals based on routines we've all been practicing we can have one crew engage another!! Edited December 30, 2008 by RustyNell “PIRACY, n. Commerce without its folly-swaddles, just as God made it.” Ambrose Bierce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyNell Posted December 30, 2008 Author Share Posted December 30, 2008 (edited) Was curious about the 8 points we use 7 .. was wondering what point I'm missing (and no crackpot jokes I know I usually miss the point LOL) Edited December 30, 2008 by RustyNell “PIRACY, n. Commerce without its folly-swaddles, just as God made it.” Ambrose Bierce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeky Actress Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 (edited) Yes, Captain...it would be nice to have all our Crewe fighting on the same side. Though, it will be odd not sparring with the likes of Mary Diamond or Silkie. Bess Haggardy didn't have the honor of picking up the new Metal Ladle that Mary purchased. I think it will be a grand addition to the domestic hoard of weapons! and no...Mistress Lilly would not fight. She might scream...but would not take up a blade unless forced to do so. Perhaps a pistol....hmm, going to have to think on this one. Edited December 30, 2008 by Cheeky Actress Member of "The Forsaken" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeky Actress Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 (edited) oops! Damn double posting! Edited December 30, 2008 by Cheeky Actress Member of "The Forsaken" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 And why wouldn't Lilly pick up a sword, aside from the fact that she casn't pronounce the word correctly 9 times out of 10? There seemed to be a number of women trained in the art for dueling purposes already... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeky Actress Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Looks like you and I are stuttering this morning (double postings ). Do you mean the word Sword, Sward, or Swooard?!. Very well, I shall use the words...Rapier, Foil, or blade instead. Member of "The Forsaken" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theM.A.dDogge Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Was curious about the 8 points we use 7 .. was wondering what point I'm missing (and no crackpot jokes I know I usually miss the point LOL) simple eights: 1. shoulder (back of neck) 2.shoulder (front of neck) 3. leg (back of thigh) 4. leg (front of thigh) 5. top of head (swinging from right) 6. top of head (swinging from left) 7. thrust (cross body to but) 8. thrust (cross body to tummy) this way every attack/block (shoulder,leg, head , thrust)...is practised from both sides of the body...and can be excuted(because the movemnet will now feel natural) from anywhere within a choreogrphed sequence.... i make our group practise this list...blocks...then attacks.....repeatedly...in this order....so the movments feel natural.....concentrating on the "cues" for each move...and the stopping point of the blade for each movement....once that is sunk in...and you have "muscle memory" with the action....then we move to changing the sequence....head,head,leg head, thrust....fro example...... then once a simple sequence is in place... we then work on the ....engagement.....where will the first srtike come from...are you running towards another? satnding at en guard?....often times the first strike is a "pass"...where your bodies are comming toward each other, and strike blades(contact or near miss)...litterally pass each other....turn...and now bodies at rest may engage each other with proper distance.... then a grapple or lock up....thrown in..... then work on the ending.....run away?....die? truce?....certain "KILL ZONES" are considereed safe..... so...a full blown fight sequence could run..... .....runn to each other....a "high/low" pass....en guard(computing safe disatnce)....shoullder, shoulder, thrust, ....then practise sequence...(shoulder,shoulder,leg,leg,head,head,thrust,thrust)....an extra thrust, thrust....grapple/lock up....disarm.....pull pistol...git shot in belly by the low down sneaky captain..... wait....i think that was the last one Rats...I ....and Sterling did. and crwod goes oooohhhhhh... if everyone works the same "practise"...then it just really a few extra bits thrown in...for a complete fight. 'course i am making this seem way too simple.....lots of practise must go into this...and some will be more proficient then others....we often team up a newbie and an oldie....to help carry them on....or too newbies get the "background" fights....while the oldies hog the spotlight up close.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyNell Posted December 30, 2008 Author Share Posted December 30, 2008 hmmm a little confused by the back of head back of thigh thing, would have to see it. basically our points are locational 1 - head 2 - right shoulder 3- left shoulder 4. rt knee 5. lt knee 6. rt hip 7. left hip then its a matter of what type of move strike, slash, stab that determines the type of block you'll see why I was confused about an 8th point on the body I couldn't figure out where that point was “PIRACY, n. Commerce without its folly-swaddles, just as God made it.” Ambrose Bierce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary Diamond Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Ah! Sorry to arrive to this topic so late. I have had the pleasure of M.A.d'Dogge's tutelage ~ he has many years of experience, and it really comes through when you are learning. The 2 reasons I got into pirates? Weapons and costuming. I Love swordfighting, and can always use more practice ~ and would be happy to make the trip down as well, providing it is sometime between October and April (the off season for me). Unfortunately, I haven't worked hard enough to create an opportunity for myself to swordfight at the last few events ~ simply not enough time, it seems. As Mistress Lilly mentioned, I did purchase a lovely smelting ladle from Baudy Bee (sp?) this PiP ~ will make a lovely defensive club against heavier weapons, perfect for a more common impression. Oooh, shiny! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theM.A.dDogge Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 if opponent is at rest...giving you a small target...then they would be standing sideways....a strike to their shoulder....would look as if coming at their neck from the front....or from the back...hence back of neck.(also applys to thigh or as you put it knees)....its a visual easier to remember and understand then left or right. we skip the hips....and strike ...a slash really at the top of the head....from the left and from the right ...meaning with your sword in front of your body as well as from behind your body....and blocking or bringing sword up from the left side of your body or from the right..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theM.A.dDogge Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 now we do have strikes to the hip area...but usually reserve thoes for slashes (misses) and kills..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyNell Posted December 30, 2008 Author Share Posted December 30, 2008 (edited) Ohh I KNOW how much practice goes in thats why I'm not fighting yet. I mean... that fight you saw Jai and Dead-eye perform I think they have been rehearsing that fight for 2 years now and it SHOWS!! I haven't been able to make enough practices to actually partner with someone long enough to get to that level of proficiency. Thats why I don't perform. And to be honest, I haven't had much free time to even go through the choreography on my own. I am finally in a place where I can find a little time to start working on muscle memory on my own until I can get back down to KW with the crew. Was curious as well....Have you journaled your moves and the choreography and do you have standard choreographed fights that ALL your fighters learn and perform? If so I'd love to read them. Edited December 30, 2008 by RustyNell “PIRACY, n. Commerce without its folly-swaddles, just as God made it.” Ambrose Bierce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 (edited) Looks like you and I are stuttering this morning (double postings ). Do you mean the word Sword, Sward, or Swooard?!. Very well, I shall use the words...Rapier, Foil, or blade instead. Just say sword... and stop getting into bad habits on the field Edited December 30, 2008 by Capt. Sterling "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadL Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 At one point, I had even started trying to put them together into a small book or online resource or somesuch, but as usual, something came along to distract me... Maybe I'll have to start that project back up... As one with th' proverbial 'Empty Cup', but other backgrounds what follow choreographed moves (karate kata & skydiving RW), I would say a book would be a great idea to get people from different regions on th' same "script" and set a standard of moves and combinations. Where karate of like schools tend t' teach th' same kata (but no book), their students go into meets with students from across country and participate in public events without hurting one another (speaking 'exhibition' now, not 'competition of course), but of course such first time meetings they will stick strictly 'to the book' - yet they have no 'book' but do practice the identical routines of their particular style. On th' other hand; skydivers do use Books! Every skydiver will have one or more books in his/her gear bag of 'jump routines' that been tried and proved and then documented in small stick man like drawings, each logging each step from beginning to end. Each of these books document from basic choreographs (1 on 1) to advanced choreographs (8 people); from there we have little rubber stamps we use t' create and document our own choreographs as we learn and grow. These books also make it easy when we travel and get together with others to share any interesting moves we come up with. We all know the same basic defined choreographs and know them by the same name and in the same sequence as we all learned from th' same book sold at all the drop zones everywhere (in our case here - Faire and Ren faire) With such a standardized book then standard names can be given to each offensive and defensive move, also a standard of 7 or 8 can be determined and agreed upon. Short of using a book type system it seems to me that word of mouth never really quite gets th' same word out t' everyone and becomes too easy as time goes on for the excuse "But I heard...." t' be used when an accident occurs. But then it could be done without a book system....look at karate, it only took them many generations for such a non-book standard to eventually work; however they still do not have a "single system" the way skydivers world over all know what a "Star" dive is and how to perform one with others, depending on skill level with 2 to 50 people even. I know such books in th' skydive circles sell from $15 to as much as $30. ~All skill be in vain if an angel pisses down th' barrel o' yer flintlock! So keep yer cutlass sharp, 'n keep her close! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeky Actress Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 ....and stop getting into bad habits on the field Please PM me for further discussion... Member of "The Forsaken" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyNell Posted December 30, 2008 Author Share Posted December 30, 2008 And why wouldn't Lilly pick up a sword, aside from the fact that she casn't pronounce the word correctly 9 times out of 10? There seemed to be a number of women trained in the art for dueling purposes already... Aye Captain.... yer not supposed to WARN her... “PIRACY, n. Commerce without its folly-swaddles, just as God made it.” Ambrose Bierce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theM.A.dDogge Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 With such a standardized book then standard names can be given to each offensive and defensive move, also a standard of 7 or 8 can be determined and agreed upon. Short of using a book type system it seems to me that word of mouth never really quite gets th' same word out t' everyone and becomes too easy as time goes on for the excuse "But I heard...." t' be used when an accident occurs. 'course ya just now hit on the crux of the problem.....agree'in on. now many strickly re-enactments have standerdized their moves...look at cival war calvery(american)...they have 3 base moves....so benign....that they no longer look as if they are really fightin one another.... or ...they simply dont allow hand to hand on the feild....period....(which happens to be the most standard at the moment) others...say many jousting troupes....pride themselves with how many bruizes and welts they can take/give..... so...somewhere in the middle is where we should be aiming....beingsafe...without comprimising the "look" of authenticity.....many of the "stage combat" moves are based in reality with older styles of sword play...they are just "opened" up to be more pleasing to the eye for the crowd as well as telegraphng to the oppenent. again think of more an "exibition" than a "competion" problem being....everyone and their brother....(hey my brother does this too).....has a slightly different variation on the same thing....and many places teach you varring styles historical to martial....with their own interpertations..... it all becomes very personal.... there is alot of "acting"...that actually sells the fight....we have a 3 move fight....thats it...3....but takes damn near 10 minutes...lots of grapplin'...knock downing of tents...postureing...chasing...fist fight...curses...and a shot bein fired...but only 3 actual sword moves....and folks say its one of the most realistic they have seen... ??? fights dont have to be long drawn out...though some do....depends on your character...your circumstance...and your intentions.... but thats a nother story.... damn...what was the question again?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyBarbossa Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 :::Raises hand:: Dogge... here be one ye can always have a swordfight with at events. Bad habits on th' field? Well, if someone's fightin' with a rapier and I've m' long, masive, behemoth of a saber that weighs a ton... I'm not fightin' rapier style with it. I've already tried it.. LOL, it don't work. Ye have NO idea how much I am still building my muscles up just t' use it. At the moment, I acts more like a broadsword but it's a tough time holdin' up against a broadsword. A cutlass, aye, m' saber can hold up to a cutlass. I've begun t' learn what to use and what not t' use. And if out matched in swords and th' sword.... GO FOR TH' PISTOL!!! ~Lady B Tempt Fate! an' toss 't all t' Hell!" "I'm completely innocent of whatever crime I've committed." The one, the only,... the infamous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyNell Posted December 30, 2008 Author Share Posted December 30, 2008 (edited) Its seems to me at least among the re-enactors on here, if we could come up with a list of moves and names that we can agree on collectively, I know it would mean taking a few steps back for everyone, but, if each of the fight masters were to have a MASTER meeting and put their techniques together into one system what progress that would be. If we were ALL operating from the same system, we could easily share choreography that was well understood. Back to dance again but if for example I told another dancer ... Fouetté rond de jambe en tournant, Glissade, Développé, Arabesque, Coupé jeté en tournant. that dancer could re-create those exact moves in seconds. You could even go as far as counting out down beats if you wanted to be meticulous about it and be able to dance to the SAME music without ever having been in the same room to practice until days before the show. In no time with little rehearsal together, they could concievably perform the dance to perfection. A common language is the key to us being able to do this safely. The point for me is if everyone is using their own system and their own language, as far apart as we all are from one another we will never see the day that we can really do this together safely. Maybe the masters should consider a pow-wow. Again, we all might have to take a step back in our training and re-learn some names for things, but in the long run this could result in a big step forward for pirate re-enacting. Edited December 30, 2008 by RustyNell “PIRACY, n. Commerce without its folly-swaddles, just as God made it.” Ambrose Bierce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zephaniah W Nash Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 (edited) Aye, ask ten different people how they fight or choreograph, and ye'll get thirteen different answers. I've seen the same simple move given at least three different names, I guess just because they can... Myself, I try to simplify as much as possible, as most of those I work with have very little experience. For instance, when I call for a "high right thrust," I mean a thrust, shoulder-height, off-target to the right from the attacker's point of view. That might be overly-simple for some, or not descriptive enough for others. But, I do define it all well ahead of time, so everyone I work with does know what I mean. I guess that's what them pictures are made for -- and I might even get my booklet put together if I could get the pictures taken... If I get the time over the coming weekend -- and if anyone is interested -- I'll put what notes and such I do have up online for use of Pub-folk, constructive criticism, etc. Edited December 30, 2008 by Zephaniah W Nash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadL Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 damn...what was the question again?? How t' make those "3 moves" standard across th' GAoP role play'n field, as well as th' queues used t' telegraph that an alternative move will be thrown in t' make it appear real. Aye, I do agree, me own first battle is t' think "exhibition" rather then "competition" for competition after all is where I come from. Oderlesseye guided me t' some online video only just recently where I learn'd for me first time that stage combat do not actually aim for th' target spots but rather just off, but when executed properly (and countered properly by yer opone...'er partner) it looks real enough. After speak'n with Oderlessye I now look back at me video footage I took o' Tiger Lee 'n Capt'n Syn at CHOC (viewable on me MySpace - *cheap plug*) in a whole new light as now I see their signals (naught a real fine example o' stage play fer I think perhaps they were try'n some new moves fer th' first time or had naught square'd off t'gether in a while or where both a bit drunk due t' th' extra extra slow pace. But both kept well sync with neither appearing t' attempt showboat'n on th' other - discipline). I still think a written script o' th' basics, a standardization o' basic keys (telegraphs), and a standardization o' rules would be a very good idea for all. After all, when we do go in public not everyone is at full understand'n o' why we carry our weapons (stage, real, or junk) and then when those who do step up t' "play" there are always those in th' viewing eye that will recoil but if we all be on th' same page and quote from th' same book, be we professional or week-end warrior, then together as a whole we just give a more professional view t' our adoring fans and can better but their worrisome hearts at ease. As well as Prevent accidents (a ounce o' prevention be worth a pint o' rum!) If ye will indulge me for a moment t' quote back on what I know best: the skydive community learn'd long time a ago that if we do not police ourselves then we will be policed weather we like it or not. Plus a standardized system would make it much easier for newbies t' join in without any serious issues or endless "he said/she said" encounters. However it would not stop such things as those who choose t' spar with junk what falls apart and sends blade and shards fly'n through th' air or th' occasional yahoots who just don't/can't read, but that would be a topic for another book indeed. And as for "jousting troupes....pride themselves with how many bruizes and welts they can take/give" Aye, been there done that, got enough scars t' pride (wanta see th' one on me arse?), gotta enough bone scar tissue as well that I confuse th' poor ol' doc when they look at me X-rays ("Son, why do you have a couple cracked ribs and missing bone chunks from you ankle? Those are too old to have been caused by what you are here for...." - couple o' recent followups after a car crash). While I still want t' get active in true fencing (bruises and all) I really do naught feel like limping home from faire......unless it involves be'n assisted by a couple o' lovely wenches tend t' me wounds ~All skill be in vain if an angel pisses down th' barrel o' yer flintlock! So keep yer cutlass sharp, 'n keep her close! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeky Actress Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Again, we all might have to take a step back in our training and re-learn some names for things, but in the long run this could result in a big step forward for pirate re-enacting. Good point. I am sure that this can be addressed. A good example of this type of thing is how the Blackbeard's Crew do their "School for the Scallyways". This past summer, I had the pleasure of watching and assisting Madame Grace of Blackbeard’s crew during their ‘School of the Scallywags’. The kids would take instruction from Grace on how to handle a sword. When demonstrating each move, she shouts out a command (nine times out of ten it is a sound…not a word) for a particular action or motion. The Kids pick it up right quick and have a great time of it! Now I am not suggesting that we all go “SCHWING!” when we pull out our swords to prepare to fight. (Though, I can seriously see Maddogge doing it. ) Point and counter-point commands would be helpful. Member of "The Forsaken" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theM.A.dDogge Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Bad habits on th' field? Well, if someone's fightin' with a rapier and I've m' long, masive, behemoth of a saber that weighs a ton... I'm not fightin' rapier style with it. I've already tried it.. LOL, it don't work. Ye have NO idea how much I am still building my muscles up just t' use it. At the moment, I acts more like a broadsword but it's a tough time holdin' up against a broadsword. A cutlass, aye, m' saber can hold up to a cutlass. I've begun t' learn what to use and what not t' use. And if out matched in swords and th' sword.... GO FOR TH' PISTOL!!! ~Lady B now my shoulder are wide enough i can ...but often bastardize a broad sword technique to facilitate fighting a stout rapier....now historically either the cutlass would smash the rapier in two...or the rapier would so many holes into the guy with the cutlas before he could git within reach....but for our purposes....we can make it happen now Cheecky is learnin a braodsword technique...to go up against the rapier style....'cause her character would not know how to use a swaord.....but would yeild a spoon....or heavey club...iron ladle perhaps...and would still be able to cause considerable damages to foes...as well as defend themselves.... in stage...every style...rapier,broad sword, cut & thrust,long knife,tomahwk,axe,cudgel,spoon...big ass piece of wood....would still use the same points of attack/block...the difference being on how one would weild the object(body placement and footwork) and the delivery....but the actuial points where one that way...one could have a fight 'tween a boarding pike and a cutlass....a hand axe and a butt end of a longgun....fryin pan and a braodsword....and cheecky with her spoon and silkie with her fryin pan and a fire poker could reasonabley defend the common agaisnt a maurading mass of drunkin pyrates with a myriad of weapons..... damn....i'm gittin all excited..... ....wheres my sword.. .....whowanna fight?!?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadL Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 damn....i'm gittin all excited..... ....wheres my sword.. .....whowanna fight?!?!?! can't we just sit back 'n watch Cheecky and Silkie go at it? I will bring th' pudding!!! ~All skill be in vain if an angel pisses down th' barrel o' yer flintlock! So keep yer cutlass sharp, 'n keep her close! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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